35 minutes ago, InfinityIncarnate said:

Not a problem!
The exact quotes:
Statementes:
GEORGE LUCAS: Well, children love power because children are the powerless. And so their fantasies all center on h  aving power. And who’s more powerful than Darth Vader, you know? And, some, you know, will be attracted to Luke Skywalker because he’s the good guy. But ultimately, we all know that Darth Vader’s more powerful than he is.
BILL MOYERS: Did you feel pow …
GEORGE LUCAS: And as time goes on, you discover th  at he is more powerful b  ecause he’s the —  he’s the  ultimate father who is all powerful.

Here is the source: https://billmoyers.com/content/mythology-of-star-wars-george-lucas/

Oh I get it just well, but you haven't realized that it's not about them being stronger in the current time that he wants to turn them and replace them with his current apprentice, but because of the what their potential is .
Anakin's potential is greater than Dooku's - thats why he wants to replace Dooku with Anakin.
Luke's potential is greater then Vader's - which is why he wants to replace Vader with him, and the reason he has more potential is due to the fact that he's more machine now and thus has lost a lot of his potential, because do keep in mind, that Anakin was the chosen one, not Luke. So I get it alright.

However there is a very, very important key aspect here that you are not taking into accout - Palpatine is a Dark Side Nexus, this means his presence is empowering both Anakin when he defeats Dooku, and when Luke defeats Vader, making both much stronger with the dark side of the force, which is the side they're pulling from to empower them. Do you really think that Palpatine is only present because he wants to enjoy the show, no he wants to influence them and empower them so that they can defeat Dooku and Vader, so they can take their place instead, because he wants to use the power they can achieve.

...but seriously, I'd appreciate if you'd stop with the more personal attacks.

Quotes from the OT dvd commentary

" The Emporer wants Luke to kill Vader so that he will have a new young Jedi. Lets face it Vader is half mechanical and he is not half as good as he could be. He is not nearly as good as he was hoping Anakin would become because Anakin ends up in the suit. He is hoping he gets a new better apprentice in Luke. If he kills his father then he would take his place as an apprentice…….There are alot of things repeated in these movies. Fathers vs Sons."

George Lucas

As far a the dark side nexus that does not help your case. First that is non-canon now. Second Vader and Dooku are both Dark Siders, which means they draw on the dark. And Third Luke is not drawing on the dark side the entire time and still holds the advantage when he is just using the light... at a dark side nexus... where he would be weaker and his opponent would be stronger... yet still winning while holding back... by definition Luke would have to be way stronger... but again you will only believe a mountain of evidence so I will keep digging and dropping it on you.

Found something relevant Lucas admits that he doesn't know everything there is to know about his own lucas, and that's what licensing is there for. But he is too busy to be able to do that with all the licensing material. But they are still part of the "Star Wars Universe". Right here it states that ACCORDING TO LUCAS we should follow the licensed stuff... ya I guess my official guide crap is back and you're wrong again.

You also have to remember the context of YOUR OWN quote in which he is talking about the saga as a whole, and Luke is weaker than vader in all but 1 movie. Context is king.

I don't like doing personal attacks, but when I spend an hour + digging up information, typing it up and then someone just chucks it out the window cus "lawls none of that counts" even though it is all official sources I cant do anything but treat that person like an idiot. You originally did not provide your quote or it's source you just said well this exists and I was supposed to take your word for it while I am providing fricken page numbers, scans and direct quotes with sources to back them up as well as the name of these sources and as far as I can tell you are pulling stuff from your butt and calling it gold. Now you have brought an Actual quote, actual evidence and to counter it we know that lucas goes back and forth on things all the time I got a quote that supports Luke being stronger, and there is a quote that states ACCORDING TO LUCAS... the source book stuff you want to ignore is canon material. So that puts 4 sources to 1. Again, putting us back to square 1. Luke and vader were at least equals.

Edit: please remember to keep legends out of canon discussions. Things like Dark Side nexuses and the like don't exist. Palpatine is only there to edge them on, not to amp them, the amp thing never made any sense anyway because he would actually be amping his current apprentice at the start and weakening the one he wants and putting them on EVEN footing at the end. Also want to note Lucas isn't in charge any more and as you said the Data base is part of canon, and backed by the other things I said it is evidence that Luke is to Vader as Anakin was to dooku and in Episode III Anakin> dooku.

42 minutes ago, tunewalker said:

Vader and Dooku are both Dark Siders, which means they draw on the dark. And Third Luke is not drawing on the dark side the entire  time and still holds the advantage when he is just using the light... at a dark side nexus... where he would be weaker and his opponent would be stronger... yet still winning while holding back... by definition Luke would have to be way stronger...

That they're dark siders means that they can draw on it, not that they actively do it. We know that Dooku does it in the fights against Anakin. But Vader does not use it to empower his combat capabilities during that final fight, he could've but he didn't - that was a choice in favor of Luke. You keep dismissing all the things that work in Luke's favor, because it supports your interpretation of it.

42 minutes ago, tunewalker said:

Found something relevant Lucas admits that he doesn't know everything there is to know about his own lucas, and that's what licensing is there for. But he is too busy to be able to do that with all the licensing material. But they are still part of the "Star Wars Universe". Right here it states that ACCORDING TO LUCAS we should follow the licensed stuff... ya I guess my official guide crap is back and you're wrong again.

Actually, it still doesn't change the fact that he have stated that Vader is more powerful than Luke. Futhermore, what Lucas is saying with that statement is that he doesn't know everything there is to know about the world that he created, the world he created , that means he 100% knows the material that he created - Lucas is very conscious about what he creates, but obviously he does not everything that COULD be created out of it. Furthermore, Lucasfilm Story Group who're handling the department of what can be accepted as canon and what cannot, and they have stated, that material you have presented falls outside of being canon, so no they're not back on - so it's not 4 pieces of evidence against 1, and no they were not equals.

Lucas have stated that Vader is more powerful than Luke, and that is the end of this discussion about who of the two is more powerful than the other.
Furthermore, you just want to be right and for me to be wrong, I'm sorry, but I'm not going to play that game. You keep dismissing everything I say, anything I present, even Lucas' own words in regards to the matter you dismis in favor of your own interpretation. I don't mind discussing things, and don't mind that I'm wrong sometimes, but I mind when someone keep dismissing everything I say, including evidence or things that could indicate otherwise, and then the ones turns it a battle about who's right and who's wrong, which right there makes it EXTREMELY SUBJECTIVE . But this ends here!

41 minutes ago, InfinityIncarnate said:

That they're dark siders means that they can draw on it, not that they actively do it. We know that Dooku does it in the fights against Anakin. But Vader does not use it to empower his combat capabilities during that final fight, he could've but he didn't - that was a choice in favor of Luke. You keep dismissing all the things work that in Luke's favor, because it supports your interpretation of it.

Actually, it still doesn't change the fact that he have stated that Vader is more powerful than Luke. Futhermore, what Lucas is saying with that statement is that he doesn't know everything there is to know about the world that he created, the world he created , that means he **** well knows the material that he created, but not everything that COULD be created out of it. Furthermore, Lucasfilm Story Group who're handling the department of what can be accepted as canon and what cannot, and they have stated, that material you have presented falls outside of being canon, so no they're not back on - so it's not 4 pieces of evidence against 1, and no they were not equals.

Lucas have stated that Vader is more powerful than Luke, and that is the end of this discussion about who of the two is more powerful than the other.
Furthermore, you just want to be right and for me to be wrong, I'm sorry, but I'm not going to play that game. You keep dismissing everything I say, anything I present, even Lucas' own words in regards to the matter you dismis in favor of your own interpretation. I don't mind discussing things, and don't mind that I'm wrong sometimes, but I mind when someone keep dismissing everything I say, including evidence or things that could indicate otherwise, and then the ones turns it a battle about who's right and who's wrong, which right there makes it EXTREMELY SUBJECTIVE . But this ends here!

You ignored the other lucas quote that contradicted the quote you made. You also just ignored the fact that Dark side nexuses dont exist. You also ignored the fact that Luke is holding back just like Vader is. You also failed to provide any evidence for said dark nexus or your claim that Vader wasnt using it. You also ignored the fact that the list you gave of "what is canon" from Lucasfilm is not Lucas's list but disneys list and Lucas wasnt listed as part of that list so if you want to get that technical with it neither of our quotes from lucas work anyway, which I then refer you back to the post that has the fight, the talk about the mirror thing and you are once again down to 0 sources. You also ignored the fact that your quote is referring to Vader during the entire trilogy and not episode 6 and since Vader is more powerful in 5/6ths of the movie is true... from a certain point of view that also has nothing to do with what I am talking about. You also ignored the fact that my quote IS specifically talking about episode 6. You also ignored the fact during Lucas's time the sources I linked were considered evidence and canon so if we want to include lucas quotes we include those as well. You also failed to provide any proof that you dont mind sometimes being wrong as you have yet to be ok with it during any discussion on these forums at any point in time.


Edit: I think this is how I am going to handle arguments in the future, everytime a point is made that someone ignores or a piece of evidence is stated without actual back up I am just going to bring it up so the person knows. So they can go back to addressing each of these points, because i am tired of repeating myself. This way at least when I repeat myself it will be obvious.


Edit 2: Am I allowed to laugh a little that the quote is really Lucas's interpretation as to why kids like vader, and has more to do with how he believes kids view vader THROUGHOUT the trilogy then it has to do with the intended difference between Luke and vader in the last fight of the last movie.... Context.... king. Seriously, the quote about why emperor wants Luke and saying Luke is stronger is an answer to the specific question about Luke vs Vader in episode VI in universe, while the quote that states Vader > Luke is from the perspective of what he believes little kids see and has nothing to do with the actual intent of the movies or the scenes..

There’s a reason the rule book has a section on Combined Force Power checks, it’s how you are supposed to represent the characters actual skill at controlling the Force above and beyond just their strength in using the force. It’s literally the exact thing you’re trying to replicate but wayyyyyyy simpler.

1 hour ago, tunewalker said:

You ignored the other lucas quote that contradicted the quote you made.

No I did not, just because I don't bring it up specifically doesn't mean that I ignore it, furthermore often when I don't bring it up, it's often because I assume that the answer I'm giving also serves as response to that, it's something that I already have given a response to. That particular quote I already had made a response to even before you brought it up, because my previous post actually directly answered it." Lets face it Vader is half mechanical and he is not half as good as he could be. He is not nearly as good as he was hoping Anakin would become because Anakin ends up in the suit. He is hoping he gets a new better apprentice in Luke " - this part I already covered. The emperor wants the potential power that Luke can attain, that Vader is not half as good as he could be, does not make him any less stronger in comparison to Luke. And this quote specifically does not contradict Lucas' own statement about Vader being more powerful than Luke - which is a universal statement and applies to all of the movies where Vader is in, this also includes episode 6.

1 hour ago, tunewalker said:

You also just ignored the fact that Dark side nexuses dont exist.

Again, that I didn't bring it up doesn't mean that I ignored it, as you said it was now part of the non-canon, so I excluded it.

1 hour ago, tunewalker said:

You also ignored the fact that Luke is holding back just like Vader is.

No I did not ignore that, I just didn't comment on it. Both are holding back, each for their own reasons, however - there are several occassions where Luke is not holding back.

1 hour ago, tunewalker said:

You also ignored the fact that the list you gave of "what is canon" from Lucasfilm is not Lucas's list but disneys list and Lucas wasnt listed as part of that list so if you want to get that technical with it neither of our quotes from lucas work anyway, which I then refer you back to the post that has the fight, the talk about the mirror thing and you are once again down to 0 sources.

Lucasfilm Story Group is a division of Lucasfilm Ltd. So yes, that is very much so from Lucas, and as the creator and author of the story and it's characters, his quotes count a 100%. So no I'm not down to zero sources, you are.

1 hour ago, tunewalker said:

You also ignored the fact that your quote is referring to Vader during the entire trilogy and not episode 6 and since Vader is more powerful in 5/6ths of the movie is true... from a certain point of view that also has nothing to do with what I am talking about.

No, I didn't not ignore that, inherently because that universal for all the movies Vader is in, and because of that it doesn't matter if it's episode 4, 5 or 6 we're discussing, he's still more powerful than Luke regardless.

1 hour ago, tunewalker said:

You also ignored the fact during Lucas's time the sources I linked were considered evidence.

No, I didn't not ignore that you brough those as facts, even though they don't count as fact, which I already explained to you why they are not. Moreso because they actually contradict the already established canon. As I said in a previous post, Filefact, Fightsaber and those novels are really just someone’s interpretation of events, or trying to create feel good quotes for the fans of the characters, and furthermore they also contain the authors creative liberties.

1 hour ago, tunewalker said:

You also failed to provide any proof that you dont mind sometimes being wrong as you have yet to be ok with it during any discussion on these forums at any point in time.

This I will ignore, because this is not something I have to provide any evidence for - you can either believe it or not.

I can say for sure, on the matter of Luke being stronger than Vader, we will not be able to agree on, the evidence you've presented are interpretations, not actual hard facts, they're someone elses work that obviously happen to contradict the established canon Lucas' has created. Some of the so called "evidence" you've presented, you want it to support your interpretation, but fact of the matter is, it only supports it when you interpret it support interpretation. As an example, presented " Lets face it Vader is half mechanical and he is not half as good as he could be. He is not nearly as good as he was hoping Anakin would become because Anakin ends up in the suit. He is hoping he gets a new better apprentice in Luke " - this you want work in favor of your interpretation - that Luke is stronger than Vader, but fact is that if you look at objectively, thats not what it says. I can see why you can interpret it as such, you're trying the make the connection between Vader only being half as good as the emperor was hoping Anakin to become, and that because he's ends up in a suit, he would therefore being weaker than Luke - but thats an interpretation, that is not what that statement says. Then when you put that statement together with Lucas' statement about Vader being more powerful than Luke, then the interpretation would not be possible to result in Luke being stronger than Vader because of Anakin becoming half-machine and therefore he's not half as good as he could be, and not nearly as good as what he the emperor was hoping he would become - now notice the last part " half as good as he could be, and not nearly as good as what the emperor was hoping he would become " - Not only does it not say that Luke is stronger, but it also puts that entire sentence in relation what the emperor was hoping for, and considering Anakin was the chosen one - the emperor was expecting him to become the most powerful, but even half as good as that is still very powerful. So even being half as powerful as what his potential was, he is still more powerful than Luke in any of those 3 episodes, including in the final battle against Vader.

If you still believe that Luke is more powerful than Vader, it won't change anything Lucas' has stated about who of the two are the most powerful.
Trying to sway me to have a different oppinion will prove to be futile and a waste of your efforts, as I share the same perception about the matter as Lucas does.

12 minutes ago, Richardbuxton said:

There’s a reason the rule book has a section on Combined Force Power checks, it’s how you are supposed to represent the characters actual skill at controlling the Force above and beyond just their strength in using the force. It’s literally the exact thing you’re trying to replicate but wayyyyyyy simpler.

I'm aware of that, but that is actually what the force dice inherently does very statically, completely irregardsless to the character's abilities or skills. It assumes how difficult it is to access either side, irregardless of abilities, skills and circumstances

1 hour ago, InfinityIncarnate said:

No I did not, just because I don't bring it up specifically doesn't mean that I ignore it, furthermore often when I don't bring it up, it's often because I assume that the answer I'm giving also serves as response to that, it's something that I already have given a response to. That particular quote I already had made a response to even before you brought it up, because my previous post actually directly answered it." Lets face it Vader is half mechanical and he is not half as good as he could be. He is not nearly as good as he was hoping Anakin would become because Anakin ends up in the suit. He is hoping he gets a new better apprentice in Luke " - this part I already covered. The emperor wants the potential power that Luke can attain, that Vader is not half as good as he could be, does not make him any less stronger in comparison to Luke. And this quote specifically does not contradict Lucas' own statement about Vader being more powerful than Luke - which is a universal statement and applies to all of the movies where Vader is in, this also includes episode 6.

But this again ignores the context of the quote, the context of your own quote, and the history of the character. It is a leap to think lucas is referring to potential power rather than achieved power as Palpatine has not had a history of carrying solely about potential power, if he did he would have turned anakin much sooner not just when he finally surpassed dooku. Palpatine believes in testing potential power, and either the person lives up to their potential or doesnt. Given the context it does not appear to be referring to potential power.

1 hour ago, InfinityIncarnate said:

Again, that I didn't bring it up doesn't mean that I ignored it, as you said it was now part of the non-canon, so I excluded it.

Actually you did ignore it, by not conceding a point you are ignoring the point, in addition I brought it up 2 whole quotes back and you addressed none of it then and instead continued to use it to try and support your flimsy argument. Live up to your mistakes man, you were the one that brought it up, then ignored it's non-canon nature the first time it was brought up and then when I tore the argument apart a second time you ignored it completely instead of owning your mistake.

1 hour ago, InfinityIncarnate said:

No I did not ignore that, I just didn't comment on it. Both are holding back, each for their own reasons, however - there are several occassions where Luke is not holding back

Yes you did again, you are continually stating how vader holds back, which is NULL AND VOID at the times Luke is Holding back as they are both on even footing in those moments. Even in the moments when Luke ISNT going all out and is also holding back he holds the advantage and is able to do as he pleases disengaging when ever he feels like. You are correct, he does go all out on a occasion, but unfortunately for you I am not always referring to those moments and Luke is still holding the advantage. So yes you are ignoring this fact.

Finally stop cherry picking please, you are cherry picking the quote the full quote is here. " The Emporer wants Luke to kill Vader so that he will have a new young Jedi.  Lets face it Vader is half mechanical and he is not half as good as he could be. He is not nearly as good as he was hoping Anakin would become because Anakin ends up in the suit. He is hoping he gets a new better apprentice in Luke. If he kills his father then he would take his place as an apprentice…….There are alot of things repeated in these movies. Fathers vs Sons."

1 hour ago, InfinityIncarnate said:

No, I didn't not ignore that, inherently because that universal for all the movies Vader is in, and because of that it doesn't matter if it's episode 4, 5 or 6 we're discussing, he's still more powerful than Luke regardless. 

This statement shows you are still ignoring that fact, and still ignoring the context, which I will get more into in a bit.

1 hour ago, InfinityIncarnate said:

No, I didn't not ignore that you brough those as facts, even though they don't count as fact, which I already explained to you why they are not. Moreso because they actually contradict the already established canon. As I said in a previous post, Filefact, Fightsaber and those novels are really just someone’s interpretation of events, or trying to create feel good quotes for the fans of the characters, and furthermore they also contain the authors creative liberties.

Yes you did ignore that fact, and by this quote are still ignoring that fact, as there is nothing those statements is contradicting. They WERE the canon, that is the point, at the time while Lucas was apart of Lucasfilm they were the facts. Now that Lucas is NO LONGER part of Lucasfilm neither Lucas NOR they are the facts. That is what you are ignoring and continuing to ignore.

1 hour ago, InfinityIncarnate said:

If you still believe that Luke is more powerful than Vader, it won't change anything Lucas' has stated about who of the two are the most powerful.
Trying to sway me to have a different oppinion will prove to be futile and a waste of your efforts, as I share the same perception about the matter as Lucas does.

You are correct it does not change who lucas has said was more powerful, because he has said Luke was more powerful as of 6, based on what we see in the movies, and based on the quote provided, lucas has never made a hard distinction between potential and achieved. Your view point does not match Lucas's it matches what Lucas believes the viewpoint of kids talking to psychiatrists believe. Context is king. The quote about the emperor wanting Luke is in direct reference to episode 6, while the quote you are using is in direct reference to the view point of young children who need help from psychologists, it is what lucas believes the children see not what author intent actually is.

Referencing back to the full quote " The Emporer wants Luke to kill Vader so that he will have a new young Jedi. Lets face it Vader is half mechanical and he is not half as good as he could be. He is not nearly as good as he was hoping Anakin would become because Anakin ends up in the suit. He is hoping he gets a new better apprentice in Luke. If he kills his father then he would take his place as an apprentice…….There are alot of things repeated in these movies. Fathers vs Sons."

How does the emperor think Luke is going to kill vader 1v1 if he doesnt think Luke is stronger? What would lead palpatine to believe Luke is a better apprentice if he wasnt stronger than vader? And once again the end thing refers to the mirror system once again which is supported by star wars database, which is run by CURRENT Lucasfilm which is not tied to nor does it answer to nor does lucas have anything to do with. Current Lucasfilm is not beholden to Lucas's word, old or new. So if you want to use Lucas word, you would need to allow OLD Lucasfilm canon which brings Insider 62, Fact file 111 and RotJ book back into it. Even if you don't you are cherry picking Lucas's quotes and ignoring context, and say it with me.... context is king. Context tells you the FULL story. In the case of your quote the context is in reference to the view point of children viewing all of the movies and in nearly all of them Luke is mostly incompetent and needs to be rescued multiple times of course the kids are going to view vader as powerful and luke as not because Luke is the underdog story until the very end, and even when he finally wins Palpatine is just there to show him that he STILL isn't top dog that is definitely NOT a power fantasy, while from the viewpoint of the kid vader only loses ONCE (heck even when he does lose he still is the one to save Luke and kill palpatine in the end, he dies for it but heroic sacrifices endures a character more instead of detracting from them) and other than that one time he is the master of all other situations, he is a power fantasy, he is the obstacle to overcome, but that is the FEELING the saga gives off not the context for the final fight and not truly relevant to the argument you are trying to use it for. While my quote is referencing VI specifically and the FULL quote does not make sense to be solely referencing Luke's potential because otherwise the emperor would not believe luke could kill vader nor that luke would be a Better apprentice, this is not based on feelings of a child or the assumed feelings of a child but the actual mechanical facts of the scene in question. This quote, this FULL quote was lucas's view point on Luke vs Vader in Episode VI, this FULL quote was the author intent, yours was simply his assumption on how kids viewed the characters on the whole from the whole series and has 0 to do with how things land in the end. Lucas 's view point on Luke vs Vader IN VI, is Luke is strong enough to kill vader, is a better apprentice and has greater potential, all BECAUSE Vader is "more machine now than man". But the reason Lucas gives for the fact doesnt change the fact.

1 hour ago, InfinityIncarnate said:

I'm aware of that, but that is actually what the force dice inherently does very statically, completely irregardsless to the character's abilities or skills. It assumes how difficult it is to access either side, irregardless of abilities, skills and circumstances

So why do you keep pushing your system here? No one here is interested.

1 hour ago, Daeglan said:

So why do you keep pushing your system here? No one here is interested.

That's the way heartbreakers work. So much effort put into it that it must be pushed even if nobody else appreciates it.

And, since the OP likes word count...

Heartbreaker by Pat Benatar

@InfinityIncarnate have you looked at the Genesys game ffg has released that’s based on the same dice mechanic? It has an excellent magic system that you may find adapts in a far cleaner way to your concept.

The basics of it are:

Force Rating would become a 7th Characteristic

Add a set of 3 new Force Skills; Control, Sense, Alter

To use a force power you build a dice pool based on the Skill for the power and your Force Characteristic in the same way any other skill check is made.

Any talent that would allow a “combined force power check” instead allows you to substitute your Skill rank in a Force Skill for the usual skill, and to use the rules later on for adding success to a check.

Committing Force Rating simply reduces your Force Characteristic to temporarily increase another one if your six characteristics.

Each Force Power has a difficulty assigned to the base power and specific upgrades, this is how the base difficulty is determined for using a force power, eg:

Move, (Alter skill):

Basic: Easy Difficulty,

Range: +1 Difficultly (1 Advantage to activate multiple times),

Strength: +2 Difficultly to Increase Silhouette up to ranks in Strength purchased.

Magnitude: +1 Difficulty to increase targets up to ranks in Magnitude (2 Advantage per additional activation),

Control Hurl Attack becomes a Combat Check with all the usual modifiers,

Other Control upgrades the same

Then to bring Morality into it you add something like the following rules:

Dark Side Force User:

For every uncancelled Success on a Force Skill Check the character gains 1 Conflict. After the roll but before spending Success or Advantage you may flip a Destiny Point and suffer Strain up to your Force Characteristic. You may choose to add an equal number of success to the results, or reduce conflict by an amount equal to the strain suffered (you may choose to do a combination of both).

Light Side Force User:

After rolling a Force Skill Check a character may choose to flip a Destiny Point and suffer a number of Strain up to their Force Characteristic. Add a number of Success to the check equal to Strain suffered, the Force user also gains Conflict equal to the amount of Strain suffered.

On 6/11/2019 at 9:45 PM, InfinityIncarnate said:

In canon, any force sensitive being who's trained to use their force sensitivity consciously, can consciously sense and manipulate the energy known as the force, which in turn is what gives them their force powers. Even when the force is being used unconsciously, it's still the mind thats tapping into the force - so it absolutely requires control over one's mind. So even when you do lose self-control but not consciousness, one will still retain the ability to use the force.

The only reasons why Kylo Ren and many other Dark side users lashes out more violently is because they lose control of themselves because something has triggered their anger, which they have difficulty dealing with, but any force user who loses self-control, don't necessarily lose control of all of their emotions, some emotions will take over. Quite clearly, anger issues aren't representative for every dark side user, just because it's one of the primary emotions that can lead to the dark side. Interestingly you bring up Vader, because Vader especially is very much in control of his emotions, and I would like to point out that a dark side user actually quite often will be very much in control of their emotions, giving into the anger, hate and/or fear is a choice - a conscious or subconscious choice, and quite litterally if they're not in control it could spell their own doom! In most of episode 4-6 we almost never see Vader, let go of his emotions, there is only really one where it results in Luke losing his hand, and that was as result of Luke hitting him in the shoulder with the light saber. Actually for the most part, Vader is VERY controlled in regards to his emotions. Vader could easily have defeated Luke, in each of every encounter they had, but because Vader did not truly want to destroy Luke, he did not unleash his full potential or even much of it.

So it doesn't matter what you call it, they still use their mind to feel and use their connection to the force. Both light and dark siders both use their thoughts and emotions to access the force, with their intentions "coloring" and giving the powers the sided qualites from the emotions, and they use different emotions and respective aspects of it to do this, and the jedi code and sith both reflect this in their own way. They both also focus when they use it, focus what they want to do with it, but how much and how long they need to focus certainly depends how trained they are and how their current situation affects them. Let me also point out, just because you don't see that it's the mind doing it, doesn't meant that it's not the mind thats doing it. Let me remind you that the force is something personal and deeply spiritual to the core within a force sensitive's being, and that a dark side user can't use the light side of the force is actually a very big misconception, because they absolutely can if they need to, but it's much more difficult when they've attuned themselves to the dark side. In the D20 SW game, that's reflected as a numerical penalty when trying to use the light side as a force user attuned to the dark side, where they would get a numerical bonus to use the dark side. This system, treats it like they can't, and they will forever only be able to use the dark side UNLESS they redeem themselves, which in my opinion FLIES IN THE FACE OF LORE as you call it.

Speaking of rage, the rage that is very much controlled is far more dangerous comparison to raw and uncontrolled rage. Furthermore, the dark side isn't just about rage and destruction, it's also about anger, fear, hatred, pain, suffering, malice, corruption, destruction - essential very negative emotions, but not just those,

Also, that dark siders don't focus is very much so a misconception, because they do focus, but their focus is more "with a narrow specific purpose". It's their passion that "fuels" their use of the force, and passion exist within in the mind, not in the connection with the force. It's knowlegde about the force, training and practicing sensing and manipulating the force, skills various skills that support the use of the force including discipline, thoughts and emotional states for both sides that enables the use of the force. And passion? Passion can be a catalyst for both sides. Even the sith code reflects this in it's very first paragraph. " Peace is a lie. There is only Passion. "
- There is only PASSION! (Compassion included).

Anyone using the force, can with enough knowledge, skill and strength in the force, make the powers that are equal or similar, however it's the emotion and intent that colors it, and ultimately gives the powers their qualities and drawbacks. Take for example, force lightning, that is possible for both sides - essentially it's ligtning created by the force, when it's colored by the light side, it won't be harmful or destructive but when colored by the dark side, it will become harmful and destructive. I see the force as being neutral, but emotions are what fuels and thus gives them their sided qualities. I know there are lot of people who share this perception of it, and it makes perfect sense in canon, as force is balance, the balance between light and dark is NEUTRAL.

With regards to my system, the fact that one can fail, not because of choice, but circumstances, reflects one thing that Yoda says "The greatest teacher, failure is.". You cannot truly fail with the force dice system, only because of choices.

You probably disagree with me on all points! But I've asked for official statements to back your arguments, several times now, and you've so far provided none.

They're not using their Intellect or Wisdom to wield the Force. That's the key difference here. In fact,Obi Wan tells luke, "You must let go of your conscious self and act on instinct. " Yoda further tells Luke to, " Unlearn what you have learned." In thTPM Qui Gon tells Anakin to, "Feel, don't think" . Using the Force is not a matter of intelligence or wisdom. It's a matter of feeling and instinct . " Feel the Force ". This flies completey in the face of your intended system.

23 hours ago, InfinityIncarnate said:

I'm not ignoring the movies - NO WHERE did I state that, but I am telling you, that what you're stating as evidence from the the movies, is YOUR INTERPRETATION of those scense WITH YOUR ASSUMPTION about Luke and Vader. I'm also telling you that what you use as your supporting evidence from Filefact, Fightsaber and the novels, you're treating as ACTUAL CANON when it is NOT . What I also tried to point out, which you've completely dismissed, is the fact that ALL of the authors for Filefact, Fightsaber, Novels (both graphic and written) and other 3rd party material INCLUDE THE AUTHORS INTERPRETATION as well ANY potential CREATIVE LIBERTIES TAKEN - the last parts are exactly why they cannot be treated as fact nor evidence despite how much you would want it to, because it fits with your interpretation of the movie. The only " OFFICIAL " about those sources is that they're licensed, but being licensed doesn't mean anything with regards to validity. I treat all of the 6 movies as original unchangeable canon.

I did provide other evidence to support what I said, which you completely dismissed. I also provided you with evidence that even George Lucas says that Luke was only perceived as being stronger, but in reality it was the circumstances of the situation gave him that perceived superiority - as mentioned that Vader was seriously conflicted while also keep trying to turn Luke, where wounding or killing would defeat the purpose, plus it was his ticket out of being ruled by the emperor. You completely disregarded that piece of evidence, which comes straight from the source of the creator , no interpretation or anything what so ever involved. So perhaps you should stop dismissing what I'm saying in favor of interpretation, because fact is that GL has stated that Vader is much stronger than Luke. Which by the way is also supported by the fact that Luke later has many difficulties dealing with adversaries, whom Vader outright crushes. The D20 SW RP System, isn't N-Canon or the very least, I haven't seen a single source that claims this, if anything it would fall into the now legends, just as FFG's SW currently neither is canon nor legends by official sources, but given the fact that it's Star Wars to the core, it at least deserves being recognized as at least legends.

I have no idea how you came think that the WEG D20 SW RP System Statblock for Luke and Vader I provided, that I was looking at the alter side of the force powers - which by the way makes ZERO sense, as their statblocks doesn't have anything to with the force powers that rely on the alter feat. I mentioned those references, only for the sake for a COMPARATIVE REFERENCE , as those both are two official SW RP systems. Furthermore, I recall you said that FFG didn't provide a statblock for Luke at the end of episode 6, but what you provided was, again YOUR INTERPRETATION of the so called logical progression. WEG D20 SW RP System, does not reflect Luke to be of equal strength to Vader in the end of episode 6, far from it - which is supported by George Lucas' statement, both of which completely CONTRADICT YOUR INTERPRETATION of Luke's power at that point. Even though they both handle system-wise handle the force and the use of it differently, WEG still presents a somewhat accurate representation of Luke's power and skill.

I also need to point out, that I did NOT admit to anything by saying what Lucasfilm Story Group considers reliable sources, nor did I say "none of that counts". Don't say things I didn't say.

As I already presented to you, which you completely dismissed, so I'm going to quote as that still stands.

Furthermore, it's not an excuse, Vader is holding back and so is Luke, but Luke is also being influenced by Palpatine, both by his very presence, by his coercion attempts and quite possible also use force use in regards to influence, so there are moments where he does want to destroy Vader, but realizes whats going on and backs down.

That their journeys are mirrored doesn't equate to them being mirrored equals, that is YOU INTERPRETATING IT AS SUCH!
Please do notice that NOTHING in that statement indicates that they equals in terms of skill, strength and power - ONLY that their journeys mirror each other in fascinating ways. Secondly, being mirrored could also reflect their journeys are similar but opposites.

Those sources doesn't state anything about Luke being an equal to Vader in regards to skill, strength and power. This is you twisting the information because of trying to make it fit your interpretation.

..for the record, I'm not trying to win a discussion here, this is a matter of interpretation - However by George Lucas' statement, there is all the evidence needed, Luke wasn't stronger than Vader in episode 6, not even close to, where none you present can ever change his statement, as that is your interpretation. Furthermore, just take notice of how much exactly you've skewed this statement "Their journeys mirror each other" to them being they're equals, because that is not what the statement says nor implies. Perhaps you should take a step back re-evaluate exactly how much YOUR INTERPRETATION INTERFERES with your objectivity .

You're entitled to your interpretation, but according to what George Lucas states about Luke and Vader in episode 6, then I'm sorry to say, but that means your interpretation isn't correct, no matter how you want it to be so - but thank you for the effort in trying to give light to your interpretation.

No. They are not his "interpretation". They are exactly as he says they are. As of the Batle of Endor, Luke was Vader's equal, if not better. This is canon fact , not mere interpretation. You are WRONG!!!!!

22 hours ago, tunewalker said:

Quotes from the OT dvd commentary

" The Emporer wants Luke to kill Vader so that he will have a new young Jedi. Lets face it Vader is half mechanical and he is not half as good as he could be. He is not nearly as good as he was hoping Anakin would become because Anakin ends up in the suit. He is hoping he gets a new better apprentice in Luke. If he kills his father then he would take his place as an apprentice…….There are alot of things repeated in these movies. Fathers vs Sons."

George Lucas

As far a the dark side nexus that does not help your case. First that is non-canon now. Second Vader and Dooku are both Dark Siders, which means they draw on the dark. And Third Luke is not drawing on the dark side the entire time and still holds the advantage when he is just using the light... at a dark side nexus... where he would be weaker and his opponent would be stronger... yet still winning while holding back... by definition Luke would have to be way stronger... but again you will only believe a mountain of evidence so I will keep digging and dropping it on you.

Found something relevant Lucas admits that he doesn't know everything there is to know about his own lucas, and that's what licensing is there for. But he is too busy to be able to do that with all the licensing material. But they are still part of the "Star Wars Universe". Right here it states that ACCORDING TO LUCAS we should follow the licensed stuff... ya I guess my official guide crap is back and you're wrong again.

You also have to remember the context of YOUR OWN quote in which he is talking about the saga as a whole, and Luke is weaker than vader in all but 1 movie. Context is king.

I don't like doing personal attacks, but when I spend an hour + digging up information, typing it up and then someone just chucks it out the window cus "lawls none of that counts" even though it is all official sources I cant do anything but treat that person like an idiot. You originally did not provide your quote or it's source you just said well this exists and I was supposed to take your word for it while I am providing fricken page numbers, scans and direct quotes with sources to back them up as well as the name of these sources and as far as I can tell you are pulling stuff from your butt and calling it gold. Now you have brought an Actual quote, actual evidence and to counter it we know that lucas goes back and forth on things all the time I got a quote that supports Luke being stronger, and there is a quote that states ACCORDING TO LUCAS... the source book stuff you want to ignore is canon material. So that puts 4 sources to 1. Again, putting us back to square 1. Luke and vader were at least equals.

Edit: please remember to keep legends out of canon discussions. Things like Dark Side nexuses and the like don't exist. Palpatine is only there to edge them on, not to amp them, the amp thing never made any sense anyway because he would actually be amping his current apprentice at the start and weakening the one he wants and putting them on EVEN footing at the end. Also want to note Lucas isn't in charge any more and as you said the Data base is part of canon, and backed by the other things I said it is evidence that Luke is to Vader as Anakin was to dooku and in Episode III Anakin> dooku.

While I agree with most of your statement here. I do need to correct you on one thing. Dark Side nexuses are still canon. The cave on Dagobah is such a Dark Side nexus.

26 minutes ago, Tramp Graphics said:

While I agree with most of your statement here. I do need to correct you on one thing. Dark Side nexuses are still canon. The cave on Dagobah is such a Dark Side nexus.

Good to know I would like to know the source though for my personal benefit, also is there one saying Palpatine himself is a Dark Side nexus (I know Mortis is a Force nexus so I knew Force nexus's still existed)

Finally I am going to table my rants on Vader vs Luke real quick and just ask 1 question of @infinityincarnate. Who do you think is stronger, Old Man Ben Kenobi from Episode IV or Luke Skywalker Jedi Knight from Episode VI.

3 minutes ago, tunewalker said:

Good to know I would like to know the source though for my personal benefit, also is there one saying Palpatine himself is a Dark Side nexus (I know Mortis is a Force nexus so I knew Force nexus's still existed)

Finally I am going to table my rants on Vader vs Luke real quick and just ask 1 question of @infinityincarnate. Who do you think is stronger, Old Man Ben Kenobi from Episode IV or Luke Skywalker Jedi Knight from Episode VI.

The source is ESB itself. Yoda specifically tels Luke that the cave is strong with the Dark Side, a "Domain of Evil, it is".

1 minute ago, Tramp Graphics said:

The source is ESB itself. Yoda specifically tels Luke that the cave is strong with the Dark Side, a "Domain of Evil, it is".

I wish I could hit thank you multiple times you are 100% right, and that would be the same with the hole and the like on Ach-too. Perfect, yes.

14 minutes ago, tunewalker said:

I wish I could hit thank you multiple times you are 100% right, and that would be the same with the hole and the like on Ach-too. Perfect, yes.

Precisely.