Scum han is pretty decent but leveraging that firepower isn't easy. Rebel Han by comparison just dishes out the hurt. Scum Han feels under powered despite the ship itself being super customisable. Im seeing the escape craft way more than the scum falcon itself. The arrival of gas clouds helps combat trick shot which is rather imp for pushing thru meaningful dmg from scum han.

27 minutes ago, Da_Brown_Bomber said:

Scum han is pretty decent but leveraging that firepower isn't easy. Rebel Han by comparison just dishes out the hurt. Scum Han feels under powered despite the ship itself being super customisable. Im seeing the scare craft way more than the scum falcon itself. The arrival of gas clouds helps combat trick shot which is rather imp for pushing thru meaningful dmg from scum han.

Yep. Scum Han has a couple of easy counters, don't be stressed and don't have a rock between you and him if you're in gun range. It is stupid how much of S&V is built on the opponent flying like an idiot.

8 hours ago, theBitterFig said:

The only pilot I can really see a cost reduction for is Viktor Hel (and even then only 1 point), since his ability does so little without adding Stealth Device. However, Graz is extra attack dice, which is a pretty premium ability. Is it super easy? Not always, but it's still bonus red dice, and I don't really think it needs a cut.

But compare him to Thane. I 5 instead of 4, shield instead of Hull, Torp instead of missile, access to boost. And doing unavoidable crits to damaged ships without even needing to hit. All for 1 (ONE!) point more. That's not even funny.

8 hours ago, theBitterFig said:

Kihraxz, like the Republic ARC, seems to be a ship which serves as a model for how other ships should be priced, IMHO.

This, my feeling as well. When seeing them for thenselves in isolation, they feel really balanced. But this also means, quite a lot of stuff in other factions has to go up.

10 hours ago, PhantomFO said:

Boba should absolutely come down. 86 points is way too much. He was overnerfed completely out of the game in the last update. Other Firesprays should also come down somewhat.

Scum, on the whole, got overnerfed in the first round of nerfs. Don't get me wrong: they really needed it. FFG was pretty new at the whole points adjustment thing, so I can't fault them too much. Doesn't mean they shouldn't get some minor buffs this round, though.

10 hours ago, Da_Brown_Bomber said:

yeah, han gunner and marauder going up was enough but to hit Boba too was OTT. making the other name pilots cheaper would help... when is the last time u saw Kath Scarlet or Koska Frost or Kressis Trelix on the table?

I tried out Koshka and Kath lists about a month ago. Both lost. I flew Koshka/Boba really poorly, got smashed. Kath had a pair of Fearless Skulls (I figure they'll be good if they *don't* block, and a nice perk if they do) and did OK, burning down Lando fast, but got ground down by Han.

And to be sure, they'd both be helped by being a bit cheaper. Koshka is kind of like a sweet budget-Boba, but perhaps not budget enough.

5 hours ago, Managarmr said:

But compare him to Thane. I 5 instead of 4, shield instead of Hull, Torp instead of missile, access to boost. And doing unavoidable crits to damaged ships without even needing to hit. All for 1 (ONE!) point more. That's not even funny.

I'd say that each of them being +7 points over the Init 2 generic is wrong. I just think Graz is right, but Thane is too cheap. Graz gets two init steps over the baseline, and an extra attack/defense dice ability. That's worth +7 points. Thane has three init steps (4 to 5 is an important step), and a not-weak ability. Should be more like +9 over the Rookiee Pilot.

Thane's odd. His ability does have a not-inconsiderable weakness in that an opponent needs to be damaged for it to matter. However, it does seem a bit stronger than it should be. Most Expose effects on other ships (Zertik Strom, Rexler Brath) are random Expose, rather than being able to pick one specifically. That, to me, is the big issue on Thane. He shouldn't be able to just look at someone, spend a die, and flip a Direct Hit. It should at least be random, with a chance to flip a less-optimal crit.

But I'd probably rather have Graz' ability, if I got to choose. Init 5 X-Wing with that same text would be sweet. Thane at Init 4 in a Kihraxz isn't bad, but my first impression is I'd rather have Graz' text.

5 hours ago, Managarmr said:

This, my feeling as well. When seeing them for thenselves in isolation, they feel really balanced. But this also means, quite a lot of stuff in other factions has to go up.

I do think it'd be the better way, even if it does mean "nerfs" to a lot of stuff which isn't really overperforming.

But the more I think about it, I don't think that such a thing is super likely. I read some threads, and some folks seem to have convinced themselves that nearly everything Init 5 and 6 is going to go up dramatically in price, to make it easier to fly generics or mid-init ships like Graz. I dunno. I think it'd probably be nice, but it seems more like an echo chamber, rather than FFG having actually indicated that this is what they'll do. I think some folks might be up for disappointment.

18 hours ago, Sixter said:

Scum Fenn should not cost more than Darth Vader.

I agree, but more that Vader might be undercosted. He is really good.

It is a tricky thing to balance by comparison. FFG don't really do it and I can see why, but it does lead to some inconsistencies. I think the last update was better than the 1st, which gives me hope that their methods are improving.

There's a lot of good value in Scum that isn't really being leveraged. If beef cuts are made, the field will be clearer and some of the desired improvements in Scum will occur naturally.

Looking at tournament results is deceptive as well. Risk reduction is key, both Rebel and Empire are pretty good at that. Scum is all in, it really has to be played on the edge, that's not great over the course of 6-10 games.

Meta wise, I3/I4 generics are not in a good place anywhere. Reducing them won't really change that. Ultimate value I1/I2 and I5/I6+words will always dominate min-maxing at tourney level. Toning down EPTs was absolutely a good choice but with that lower impact, there is less to be gained from any synergies there and little reason to invest in it.

Quad Phantoms aside ofc. There are few others that can work, but it's generally never as simple.

Overall, a few small adjustments here and some bigger ones in other factions, feels like the way to go for me. Scum seem mostly in a good place, internally. They just don't make it easy.

38 minutes ago, Cuz05 said:

Meta wise, I3/I4 generics are not in a good place anywhere. Reducing them won't really change that. Ultimate value I1/I2 and I5/I6+words will always dominate min-maxing at tourney level. Toning down EPTs was absolutely a good choice but with that lower impact, there is less to be gained from any synergies there and little reason to invest in it.

I mean, Paul Heaver won his first World Championship in part by recognizing that upgrading to PS 4 Daggers over PS 2 Blue B-Wings was worth the investment, since he had nearly the value of the low-PS ships, with the potential to PS-kill other generics. It's a strategy that can still work today, if you have a good read on the meta.

But I doubt it'll ever be the default. Against high-init ships, that Initiative investment gains you nothing but will cost something from the list.

1 hour ago, theBitterFig said:

I mean, Paul Heaver won his first World Championship in part by recognizing that upgrading to PS 4 Daggers over PS 2 Blue B-Wings was worth the investment, since he had nearly the value of the low-PS ships, with the potential to PS-kill other generics. It's a strategy that can still work today, if you have a good read on the meta.

But I doubt it'll ever be the default. Against high-init ships, that Initiative investment gains you nothing but will cost something from the list.

Fair. I do think it's one of those rare things though, where you have a good enough command of your list to be able to basically negate points in your list against higher Init.

I aspire to that

As others have pointed, the Kihraxz needs some love. Can’t drop the price of the chassis without creating a new monster, but maybe drop the prices on modification slots if upgrades are equipped. Otherwise, those 3 slots are quite frankly useless.

Loks are, and I hate to say it, also part of the problem. 3 Loks and Drea is just so much firepower that it pushes a lot of other builds out. Points need to be adjusted or the ruling on veteran turret gunner changed. This would need to be done in conjunction with 4 phantom changed and it would open up the board again. Right now those 2 builds are pushing out a lot of 3 ship builds for Scum (I would not put an expensive Hawk on the board under those conditions).

I would also lower contraband cybernetics, rigged cargo chute, Han gunner (a bit) and I would let the dust settle a bit before touching anything else.

19 hours ago, Cuz05 said:

Meta wise, I3/I4 generics are not in a good place anywhere. Reducing them won't really change that. Ultimate value I1/I2 and I5/I6+words will always dominate min-maxing at tourney level. Toning down EPTs was absolutely a good choice but with that lower impact, there is less to be gained from any synergies there and little reason to invest in it.

I want to agree, but I can't quite. Let's say I agree but I want to add a little nuance. First, I4s are quite possibly going to be great in the very near future. 5x Saber Squadron Interceptor will outshoot anything I5-I6 and will out-dodge anything I1-I3. I4 is situational but if they get cut a point to leave room for a bid or crack shot they'd be very balanced and quite usable. Similar story goes for the I4 fangs and T-70s (in a vacuum; again they're a little overpriced as is).

For I3, the main advantage is the talent slot, but even when that's absent it's a bit of a choice; look at the vulture droids. I1 swarms always get too many I-killed, but I3 swarms don't get as many fun toys. Their initiative balancing actually works quite well IMO (except the stupid limited ones). I3 should pay a little more than I1-I2. Not nearly as much as Republic is paying, nor even quite as much as the Black Squadron Pilot TIE is paying, but a little, and it should scale more or less depending on how dodgy the chassis can be and how easily they're I-killed.

While we wait for points, I've been going back and looking back at 1.0 competitive Scum lists.

My, how much has changed.

On 6/8/2019 at 11:06 PM, Innese said:

Mine is less of a points change and more of a rules adjustment!

The Scyk chassis ability is:

Weapon Hardpoint: You can equip 1 [cannon], [torpedo], or [missile] upgrade.

Notice it doesn’t say anything about slots, merely just what type of upgrade(s) you’re allowed to pick from. Specifically, a missile upgrade is just any card with the [missile] icon.

So why not Barrage Rockets? Yes I know it has 2 [missile] icons on its card, but again the chassis ability only refers to Upgrade Type, not Slots

The only thing defining "upgrade type" are the "slots" icons on the card, so I don't see how you can draw a distinction between "upgrade type" and "slots". The "upgrade type" of barrage rockets is [missile][missile], not [missile].

As a disheartened Scum player, I'm hoping for points drops to make non-Guri Scum hyperspace lists competitive. I suck flying aces, and Guri seems like the best hyperspace piece Scum have now. I normally fly twin Firesprays (Emon & Boba), and I just don't feel like my list is competitive.

...

Specific suggestions:

-- Contraband cybernetics to 1 or 2 points max. 5 is a cruel joke.

-- I'd be OK with Slave One going up a point or two, especially if it's offset by drops in the Firespray pilots.

-- Han Gunner: It was undercosted at 4, but it's unplayable at 12.

-- Some sort of fix to Dengar. If they've got to use points only to fix him (rather than some of the more elegant fixes -- like changing the Punishing One title to a 3-dice primary front arc attack), then so be it.

-- Advanced Sensors down a touch. 10 is wayyy expensive.

-- Discounts to some of the Aggressor pilots, so that a list that flies 2 Brobots can actually take some worthwhile upgrades.

2 hours ago, hoarybat said:

As a disheartened Scum player, I'm hoping for points drops to make non-Guri Scum hyperspace lists competitive. I suck flying aces, and Guri seems like the best hyperspace piece Scum have now. I normally fly twin Firesprays (Emon & Boba), and I just don't feel like my list is competitive.

...

Specific suggestions:

-- Contraband cybernetics to 1 or 2 points max. 5 is a cruel joke.

-- I'd be OK with Slave One going up a point or two, especially if it's offset by drops in the Firespray pilots.

-- Han Gunner: It was undercosted at 4, but it's unplayable at 12.

-- Some sort of fix to Dengar. If they've got to use points only to fix him (rather than some of the more elegant fixes -- like changing the Punishing One title to a 3-dice primary front arc attack), then so be it.

-- Advanced Sensors down a touch. 10 is wayyy expensive.

-- Discounts to some of the Aggressor pilots, so that a list that flies 2 Brobots can actually take some worthwhile upgrades.

I don't agree that the Aggressors need a points reduction; I've been flying a pair with Adv Sensors and some pirate blockers, and it feels perfectly solid. If discounts hit the Aggressors across the board, there would never be a reason to use the cheaper pilot abilities.

I think all the aggressors need is a solid cannon... maybe a littlemore than that but theye not seeing much play in my area at all.

7 hours ago, hoarybat said:

Contraband cybernetics to 1 or 2 points max. 5 is a cruel joke.

Indeed

After fiddling around with lists recently, I'd also like them to take a look at the price differences between the cheap and "elite" generics. They seem a bit inconsistent.

Cartel Spacer -> Tansarii Vet (M3-A) costs 4 points for +2 init and talent slot, but Binayre -> Black Sun Soldier (Z-95) is 3pts for the same. Meanwhile MG Sentry -> MG Surveyor (MG TIE) is only 1 point, although it does only give +1 init instead of +2.

"Ah, but the Scyk has a higher base cost!" you might say. And yet Crymorah -> Hired Gun (Y-Wing, +1 init and talent) and Black Sun Enforcer -> Assassin (Starviper, +1 init and talent) are both 2pts (and arguably the SV benefits more from the initiative because of its strong repositioning options).

For that matter, Gand Findsman -> Zuckuss (+2 init, talent slot, pilot ability) is 4 pts, the same as the M3-A - So for the same price increase you get a free pilot ability, on a ship with a higher base cost.

I am considering selling scum but holding off until point change

Too much emphasis on Guri/rau green dice happy arcdodging atm

Would ideally like not-guri vipers to go down and have more reason to field generics without Drea

I miss my Xizor

45 minutes ago, ficklegreendice said:

Would ideally like not-guri vipers to go down

Going to fly 4 generic vipers in about an hour...

I think assassins for 47 would be nice, then with the 3pt talents they would be 50.

Enforcers with collision detectors for 50 would be nice, too

2 minutes ago, flooze said:

Going to fly 4 generic vipers in about an hour...

I think assassins for 47 would be nice, then with the 3pt talents they would be 50.

Enforcers with collision detectors for 50 would be nice, too

Or Afterburners. That'd also be pretty potent. You'd be able to Boost and Link a Focus after flying over a Cloud or Asteroid, or just Boost and then Barrel Roll and Focus. There's a lot of movement which that can accomplish, and an extra 45 degree facing change, for a total of 90 degrees after your dial move.

34 minutes ago, flooze said:

Going to fly 4 generic vipers in about an hour...

I think assassins for 47 would be nice, then with the 3pt talents they would be 50.

Enforcers with collision detectors for 50 would be nice, too

mainly just wanna fly Xizor

though the bendy roll and one of my favorite ship designs (I'm a sucker for the bizarre, goofy, and long wing-spanned) would get me excited at the prospect of cheaper generics too!

honestly, if it weren't for my Vipers I would've sold a while ago

In general, I want more incentive to fly Vipers, my one Kimoglia, named SCURRG, and khirax (not FIVE CARTEL MARAUDERS, mind you!)

1 hour ago, ficklegreendice said:

mainly just wanna fly Xizor

though the bendy roll and one of my favorite ship designs (I'm a sucker for the bizarre, goofy, and long wing-spanned) would get me excited at the prospect of cheaper generics too!

honestly, if it weren't for my Vipers I would've sold a while ago

In general, I want more incentive to fly Vipers, my one Kimoglia, named SCURRG, and khirax (not FIVE CARTEL MARAUDERS, mind you!)

Have you given a combo along these lines a look?

Prince Xizor (54)
Predator (2)
Shield Upgrade (8)
Virago (10)

Torani Kulda (50)
Cluster Missiles (5)
R5-TK (1)
Munitions Failsafe (1)

Captain Nym (48)
Trick Shot (2)
Dorsal Turret (2)
Veteran Turret Gunner (6)
Havoc (4)
Fire-Control System (2)
Total: 195

View in Yet Another Squad Builder 2.0

I had fully intended to take a 4 ship Scum list, with no Vipers, to casual night this week. Then earlier, was looking at Drea + Dengar gunner and 3 Crack Shot Assassins.

This topic is not helping my decision making process.

Seriously though, shave a few points off that Dread Star, (especially Dengar), and I might be all in on it. Room for 3pt talents on the Assassins would be nice.

Then I'll have to paint my other 2 Vipers....

It's very sad. Not sure all of this would be enough but here's a start:

Bonus round – Illicits:

On 6/8/2019 at 10:10 AM, millertime059 said:

but I swear to god if Palob drops I am burning this mother to the ground.

Palob is much less of threat with all of the Calculates and Force Charges around. Two factions can almost ignore him.

37 minutes ago, ClassicalMoser said:

It's very sad. Not sure all of this would be enough but here's a start:

Are these point suggestions driven from data crunching?

6 minutes ago, 5050Saint said:

Palob is much less of threat with all of the Calculates and Force Charges around. Two factions can almost ignore him.

Are these point suggestions driven from data crunching?

Yes, it’s in my other thread.

Full results here:

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/u/5/d/1fZqj7rroGGcAPio285FJ7qOnluaUtixxs508FJq1pwQ/htmlview

Not the most rigorous model but a pretty decent approximation for one that applies uniformly to every card.