On 6/5/2019 at 11:32 PM, Kdubb said:

As I put my “ just learn to read lolz” trolling armor on, just want to say this type of stuff can actually be a significant hurdle for new and perspective players.

No lie, the strut card or whatever for the vulture droids alone pretty much convinced me I didn’t actually want to buy back into the game like I thought I did a month or so ago.

As a comparison, Magic has some lengthy card text, but unless you are talking about awful early magic designs, I have never had to read a card more than 3 times to understand what was happening. A big help comes from a lot of their key wording.

Let’s take Holdo here (not necessarily difficult to see how she works, but an easy example)-

Here is how the card could read with some simple key wording.

”Before you engage, SEARCH 2. Then EXCHANGE 1 with that ship. (Reminder text explaining key word)”

Now you might say the need for reminder text just makes it pointless to have the keywords. That’s wrong, because if you are NOT a new player or reading the card for the first, second or perhaps third time, you will know exactly what the card is doing by reading the first 9 words instead of having to scan all 42 of them.

I know to many of you that may seem like a small thing. Perhaps even unnecessary. But I’m telling you- It’s things like this that make your game not only fun, but widely accessible.

The thing is, even MTG only keywords stuff they do several times. This exchange doesn’t seem like something that is likely to be repeated.

The issue with generics varies by faction

Generally, generics SHOULD be more efficient statwise because they're lower Initiative and don't have pilot abilities. Ie, being efficient pointswise is like all they can do

If a faction has access to more efficient named pilots (re: rebel beef) you'll basically never see their generics

Mainly it's a point issue (since that determines efficiency) and a larger trend of underpaying for higher I + pilot abilities

Like I said previously, though, the resistance doesn't really have an efficient generic platform as the ships are paying premium for manueverability or other features (such as bombs and now support). even after the points fixing, I Dont think we'll see many resistance generics in general regardless, which does kinda fit into their faction theme

34 minutes ago, gamblertuba said:

As to the carping about generics being useless, I don't think that holds up.

The reason we don't see many generic lists in the top cuts is that most of the top players just don't fly them. If you cannot compete with generic ships, your opponents are just better than you. Sorry. I got beat by Nathan Eide in Bloomington. (GSP video, no commentary) Wasn't because his Aces were too cheap or my Vultures were not good. I lost because he is a better player than me. I made mistakes, he didn't.

The simple fact is this: most of the best X-wing players prefer the experience of flying aces. Why? That's a tricky question. Probably as many reasons as there are players.

Unless you conducted a formal poll, I am viewing the "simple fact" that you are presenting skeptically. Most of the best X-Wing players are probably very much like the other humans who are the best at anything, meaning that they prefer being the best. This is why they invest so much time and energy into whatever their preferred activity is. I can't imagine that X-Wing players who take the time to be truly competitive have been collectively handicapping themselves so that they can fly their favorite character.

I was under the impression that it was a very poorly kept secret that many named pilots' abilities would be undercosted if they came in the form of an upgrade card for that ship rather than typed onto a pilot's card.

1 hour ago, Ryfterek said:

4x Phantoms, Y-ions, Drea Swarm, 5As, Torrential

Me and You, we both play the same game?

Edit: forgot to mention Drones and Wardens, shout-out.

Should have been more specific. We see plenty of lists that contain generics as filler but not very many that are driven by generics in the cut. Went back and looked at the top 16 of the System Opens since UK.

Top 16 Lists (96 total)

• Phantoms (16 **** times!) Sort of the exception that proves the rule? Obviously stupid broken.
• Wardens (twice)
• Blair Bunke (yes he is his own category)
• Jess's Reds
• Drea Swarms (8 times) Is this really a generic list if it only works with Drea?

The other's you listed either haven't shown or are much more about the named Aces than the generic fillers.

42 minutes ago, Rapture said:

Unless you conducted a formal poll, I am viewing the "simple fact" that you are presenting skeptically. Most of the best X-Wing players are probably very much like the other humans who are the best at anything, meaning that they prefer being the best. This is why they invest so much time and energy into whatever their preferred activity is. I can't imagine that X-Wing players who take the time to be truly competitive have been collectively handicapping themselves so that they can fly their favorite character.

I was under the impression that it was a very poorly kept secret that many named pilots' abilities would be undercosted if they came in the form of an upgrade card for that ship rather than typed onto a pilot's card.

No formal poll so, yeah, should have been more equivocal in my statement.

I'm certainly not suggesting that top players have been handicapping themselves for fluffy reasons. I am suggesting that most of the top players not named Blair Bunke seem to enjoy flying lists that feel "Acey." Whatever "data" that is based on is from listening to lots of podcast interviews, IRL conversations, and some of the recent comments on the Mynocks FB page.

Some of the abilities are probably undercosted and/or the pilots do not pay nearly enough for the initiative bump.

10 minutes ago, gamblertuba said:

Should have been more specific. We see plenty of lists that contain generics as filler but not very many that are driven by generics in the cut.

I don't necessarily think that all-generic lists have to be viable. I'd almost prefer them not to be as it can make for kind of boring or hyperefficient list-building.

At the same time, every generic should be viable for at least a couple of different uses or for a really good niche purpose.

By way of example, 8x Academy pilots is probably never going to be good. You can't take more than 8 because that's the hard cap, but you also don't have anything to do with the leftover points because there aren't many meaningful upgrades to put on them. Yet the Academy Pilot is an excellent ship as a filler/blocker/diversion/Howlfodder/miniswarmmaker. 1-5 of these get used regularly in lists though 8 probably never will.

On the other hand, the Obsidian isn't good for much of anything. It sucks as a blocker, still gets I-killed by almost everything, and costs more than the Academy. I don't think I've ever seen one on the table.

You guys all sound like the people that hate Brie Larson

2 hours ago, ClassicalMoser said:

On the other hand, the Obsidian isn't good for much of anything. It sucks as a blocker, still gets I-killed by almost everything, and costs more than the Academy. I don't think I've ever seen one on the table

The Obsidian Squadron and Zeta Squadron pilot are a touch pointless.

Obsidians do have one use - they are a 1-threat quick build, exactly like Academy pilots - meaning +1 initiative for no increase in cost.

I do keep wondering about 'obsidian squadron' as a squad - 7 x obsidians and night beast with afterburners.

4 minutes ago, Magnus Grendel said:

I do keep wondering about 'obsidian squadron' as a squad - 7 x obsidians and night beast with afterburners.

If you want afterburners on a TIE/ln, I'd do Scourge and Mauler. I've actually had some pretty good runs with them when I'm careful as they're basically 3-die double-repositioning I5 aces as long as they have that Bullseye or R1. Add predator and they still only cost as much as Iden or Howl do naked. I love me a good 40-pt pocket ace, and I5 is great.

Of course, it doesn't have the great thematics of Obsidian squadron.

Angled Deflectors looks like a good card, but it's gonna be easy to overprice it. The loss of shield from equipping the card makes the card start out at a negative price. How much you should price the addition of an action is an interesting question. My bet is that the card will come out priced at ~8 points, but should cost about 2.

Since a reinforce token can't stop the last point of damage from coming in, it's going to be great against Torpedoes, but far less good against TIE fighters. That's exactly the sort of damage mitigation that I am glad to see FFG is promoting.

Yeah low single figures is about right.

15 minutes ago, Punning Pundit said:

Angled Deflectors looks like a good card, but it's gonna be easy to overprice it. The loss of shield from equipping the card makes the card start out at a negative price. How much you should price the addition of an action is an interesting question. My bet is that the card will come out priced at ~8 points, but should cost about 2.

Since a reinforce token can't stop the last point of damage from coming in, it's going to be great against Torpedoes, but far less good against TIE fighters. That's exactly the sort of damage mitigation that I am glad to see FFG is promoting.

Not to mention Plasmas are definitely doing at least 2 damage. Ooooohhh

2 hours ago, ClassicalMoser said:

Not to mention Plasmas are definitely doing at least 2 damage. Ooooohhh

Aaaaaand BORONS!

(50% of the time)

On 6/7/2019 at 9:31 PM, Punning Pundit said:

Angled Deflectors looks like a good card, but it's gonna be easy to overprice it. The loss of shield from equipping the card makes the card start out at a negative price. How much you should price the addition of an action is an interesting question. My bet is that the card will come out priced at ~8 points, but should cost about 2.

Since a reinforce token can't stop the last point of damage from coming in, it's going to be great against Torpedoes, but far less good against TIE fighters. That's exactly the sort of damage mitigation that I am glad to see FFG is promoting.

On 6/7/2019 at 9:37 PM, thespaceinvader said:

Yeah low single figures is about right.

There aren't many upgrades that just add a new action type. "make a red action white" (engine upgrade, tactical officer, expert handling) is usually 2 points.

"Add a red action" (squad leader) is mid-single-figures depending on initiative, and is red, and has lots of caveats, but then co-ordinate is so unusual an action it's kind of a special case. Black one's SLAM is one-use at 2 points.

Andrasta is probably a simple one at 4 points, cloaking device and krennic at 5. But you're right that a reverse shield upgrade is almost the same price, so yeah, a couple of points is probably about right. I could see a flexible price might be justified, but the price needs to flex based on your ability to generate multiple actions - so maybe based on higher initiative, because high initiative pilots usually are the one who get force or free actions.

Changing the colour of an action should, for my money,a ctuall be MORE expensive than adding a white action of the same type - because ships are balanced by having red actions rather than white, but they're also balanced to work well *without* the new action, and new actions offer extra option on top of its already-good options.

Or to put it another way, Tac Officer is 2, Debris Gambit is 3.

1 hour ago, thespaceinvader said:

Changing the colour of an action should, for my money,a ctuall be MORE expensive than adding a white action of the same type

I disagree. It is worth it to note that Tac Officer etc. do not change the color of the action. They are upgrades that have a prerequisite and add a white action. For example, sometimes a Reaper would want to gain stress from a red coordinate, in order to not have to do the aileron move next turn.

True. That makes them even more flexible, and therefore, worth more

The loss of the shield is a huge cost, and the opportunity cost of actually USING the upgrade is going to struggl to make up for that in a lot of cases and matchups.

3 hours ago, Magnus Grendel said:

I could see a flexible price might be justified, but the price needs to flex based on your ability to generate multiple actions - so maybe based on higher initiative, because high initiative pilots usually are the one who get force or free actions.



I'd scale it based on agility: the lower the agility the higher the price.

On 6/6/2019 at 12:42 PM, Pink_Viking said:

Jamming Beam starts to look like an useful upgrade.

Does it?

20 minutes ago, Polda said:

Does it?

For the price of free, I'd strap one onto every cannon-carrier I have just in case. Could make all the difference for a Scyk-swarm...

On 6/7/2019 at 5:50 PM, Talonbane Cobra said:

You guys all sound like the people that hate Brie Larson

Only because she broke Scott Pilgrim's heart.

I quite liked her as captain marvel.