I just faced My first imperial tank and boy, it did not scare me.

My opponent had unit of snowtroopers inside and that thing is a death trap. Chewie plinked 2 turns back to back (last first) then a proton charge hit and half the squad was dead just by bonus from hurting the tank.

Just one game of course, but a transport that is this deadly to it's trnaported unit feels weird. The guns were alright, but nothing crazy.

I thought the tank could bring some more armor into the game, but now I doubt it. Not saying it's a bad unit, but with the current transport rules it feels like a terrible transport.

Open is clearly not meant to transport anything.

3 hours ago, jocke01 said:

I just faced My first imperial tank and boy, it did not scare me.

My opponent had unit of snowtroopers inside and that thing is a death trap. Chewie plinked 2 turns back to back (last first) then a proton charge hit and half the squad was dead just by bonus from hurting the tank.

Just one game of course, but a transport that is this deadly to it's trnaported unit feels weird. The guns were alright, but nothing crazy.

I thought the tank could bring some more armor into the game, but now I doubt it. Not saying it's a bad unit, but with the current transport rules it feels like a terrible transport.

Driving face first into a proton charge seems like a pretty egregious error.

Open transport implies the unit is piled up on the outside of the Tank, probably just sitting on the flat bed it's not like they are inside the tank protected by the armour. So picking off the riders should be easy/incidental to hitting the tank since they are riding a huge target in the open air.

I've used it for a few matches and I like it. Never transported anything because of the "open" category (I mean, at least let them shoot if they can get hit). But with an aim and the surge crew, the DLT plus long range guns are pretty good.

You do have to be careful because the large sides can make it vulnerable--just hang back and shoot from long range. In one match I finished off a Han, killed a sniper team first round, and finished off an at rt. Good times.

6 hours ago, Caimheul1313 said:

Open transport implies the unit is piled up on the outside of the Tank, probably just sitting on the flat bed it's not like they are inside the tank protected by the armour. So picking off the riders should be easy/incidental to hitting the tank since they are riding a huge target in the open air.

I rode in the back of a vehicle at an airsoft game Sunday- I have physical evidence to prove this to be true.

10 hours ago, jocke01 said:

The guns were alright, but nothing crazy.

Stop mocking the T47 with your superior firepower. It's unkind.

This is more or less my experience with the Occupier as a transport as well; it sucks in that role, and isn't anything too special outside of it either.

If it isn't dropping the dudes of early turn 2, it probably isn't doing what it needs to do quickly enough.

If you plink it with shots that will go through (impact, pierce) then you have a solid advantage on the tank.

If you're running the tank and having problems with this, you can try to plan a little around it. Deploy the unit in question and the tank separately.

Turn 1 move the tank last, move the unit close to last to embark on the tank. This way early pot shots won't kill the stormies.

Turn 2 move the tank early, hopefully in range for the troopers to go on the next activation and obliterate something.

That said, if a snowtrooper squad makes it out with the flame thrower, it should still get a great attack.

I feel like the real question we need to be asking here is whether or not the snowies getting shot by all of those things outside of the tank would have faired any better. This is not to claim that the tank is the world best transport, but rather determine context. Transporting seems to do two things - it can move a unit up the board faster than it might normally, it can provide better defense with the combination of armor and red dice. The former is hard to deny, especially for a unit like snowies who only really need 2 units to survive the transport to make an impact. The latter can make a case for full scout trooper units, as their defense dice are bad but their offense good, making them a fairly decent transport target. This all comes at the cost of greater vulnerability - anything that can hurt the tank, can hurt it's occupants.

There's a lot to be said as well for how the tank was used in the game - if Chewie is last/firsting the tank then what is the tank doing? If Chewie can hit it, it can hit chewie and chewie has far worse odds to live in that exchange. Also, did the other player have orders set up in such a way that the tank can deliver a unit in one activation and have that unit disembark and attack the next? If not, then why put anyone in the tank?

Running into a proton charge also seems like a poor move by the tank as those things are specifically designed to affect vehicles. As noted above, the player basically doubled the value of the proton charge by letting it hit two units at once. We can save the listbuilding question for later (two rarer things showing up on opposite sides is a different discussion) but basically it seems like the tank wasn't used optimally.

I'd argue that a range 4, 6 dice attack rolling 5-6 hits a shot that also has the strongest defensive abilities in the game thus far is still a good unit

1 hour ago, Simonsays3 said:

I feel like the real question we need to be asking here is whether or not the snowies getting shot by all of those things outside of the tank would have faired any better. This is not to claim that the tank is the world best transport, but rather determine context. Transporting seems to do two things - it can move a unit up the board faster than it might normally, it can provide better defense with the combination of armor and red dice. The former is hard to deny, especially for a unit like snowies who only really need 2 units to survive the transport to make an impact. The latter can make a case for full scout trooper units, as their defense dice are bad but their offense good, making them a fairly decent transport target. This all comes at the cost of greater vulnerability - anything that can hurt the tank, can hurt it's occupants.

There's a lot to be said as well for how the tank was used in the game - if Chewie is last/firsting the tank then what is the tank doing? If Chewie can hit it, it can hit chewie and chewie has far worse odds to live in that exchange. Also, did the other player have orders set up in such a way that the tank can deliver a unit in one activation and have that unit disembark and attack the next? If not, then why put anyone in the tank?

Running into a proton charge also seems like a poor move by the tank as those things are specifically designed to affect vehicles. As noted above, the player basically doubled the value of the proton charge by letting it hit two units at once. We can save the listbuilding question for later (two rarer things showing up on opposite sides is a different discussion) but basically it seems like the tank wasn't used optimally.

I'd argue that a range 4, 6 dice attack rolling 5-6 hits a shot that also has the strongest defensive abilities in the game thus far is still a good unit

This. I think you need to hang back with the tank and use its range 4 guns; that will give you the most bang for your buck. Use terrain to block this sides, and with the containers on, it can totally obscure a unit, such as death troopers.

It was designed to transport Khyber crystals, not troops. Owner's manual was not read = user error. Khyber crystals can withstand most small arms fire.

Probably should just restrict open topped hits to only wounding the occupants with crits (generated naturally or through Crit X/Surges). Otherwise the Transport keyword is something you're paying a for keyword in points that aren't worth the cost it (though that's hardly unique among Legion units).

Alternatively you could let the units inside actually shoot out of it. You're giving up a lot just for a longer move speed for a turn or two.

3 hours ago, GreatMazinkaiser said:

Probably should just restrict open topped hits to only wounding the occupants with crits (generated naturally or through Crit X/Surges). Otherwise the Transport keyword is something you're paying a for keyword in points that aren't worth the cost it (though that's hardly unique among Legion units).

How would that even work? You'd have to roll defense dice separately for "natural" crits as opposed to ones from Impact? Sounds incredibly clunky.

12 hours ago, arnoldrew said:

How would that even work? You'd have to roll defense dice separately for "natural" crits as opposed to ones from Impact? Sounds incredibly clunky.

Describes FFG dice mechanics and their interaction with upgrades/keywords/etc in a nutshell doesn't it? Feeling some nostalgia for Glancing -> Penetrating hits and being able to fire out of the back of a Trukk...

56 minutes ago, GreatMazinkaiser said:

Describes FFG dice mechanics and their interaction with upgrades/keywords/etc in a nutshell doesn't it? Feeling some nostalgia for Glancing -> Penetrating hits and being able to fire out of the back of a Trukk...

I don't feel any nostolgia for that, not do I think Legion's dice mechanics are "clunky." Legion is designed to be a relatively simple ruleset for fairly streamlined play. No checking modifiers to dice numbers, just check symbols and modify the symbols shown. No rolling on a separate table to determine the outcome of hitting a vehicle for every shot, just once when it hits the damage threshold.

"Clunky" to me is "add 1 to this die roll in X situation, -1 for these situations, and only hit on 6 in this situation." Rather than "roll, check symbols, modify pool, roll different dice, compare results."

I think a fix could be to let the unit inside roll defence against the wounds. Auto or bonus dmg is always gonna be super powerful.

Then it's still a risk, but at least the unit is a little protected while transported

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I think a fix could be to let the unit inside roll defence against the wounds.

But these units aren't inside the tank. They're sitting on top of it. I don't think of the tank as a troop transport. It's a tank that troops can ride on top of. I'm guessing an actual troop transport will come at some point in the future and will be better at keeping its contents safe.

5 minutes ago, VisionVoid said:

But these units aren't inside the tank. They're sitting on top of it. I don't think of the tank as a troop transport. It's a tank that troops can ride on top of. I'm guessing an actual troop transport will come at some point in the future and will be better at keeping its contents safe.

True, but they should get some sort of cover. At this point it's more like they are strap on the armor plating than sitting on the back. If they could shoot or something then fine.

Transport open dosen't have any benefits to make it useful at trabsporting IMO.

It would be nice if they had some kind of ability to shoot while riding on the tank. Maybe not a full on normal shooting action, but something.

5 hours ago, GreatMazinkaiser said:

Describes FFG dice mechanics and their interaction with upgrades/keywords/etc in a nutshell doesn't it? Feeling some nostalgia for Glancing -> Penetrating hits and being able to fire out of the back of a Trukk...

Not really, pretty much everything in this game is incredibly smooth. When things get tricky like with attack order they literally give you steps you can follow that are easy to remember after referencing them only a couple of times. The most clunky thing id having to reference the vehicle damage roll every single time.

If you can't remember every result on a d6 table you should probably see a doctor ablelist I know)...

I do really like the suggestion that transported units can save against the damage. It's simple and mimics an existing mechanic (Guardian).

5 hours ago, VisionVoid said:

It would be nice if they had some kind of ability to shoot while riding on the tank. Maybe not a full on normal shooting action, but something.

Yeah, an Open transport should allow any transported minis to attack in some way.

WWII tank riders could fire their weapons, so there's no reason Snowtroopers couldn't do the same off the Occupier. I could see them saying they couldn't fire out of the vehicle's front arc, as the main body blocks that way, but out the sides or rear shouldn't be a problem.

6 hours ago, Alpha17 said:

WWII tank riders could fire their weapons

I think they tended to dismount before fighting. Sitting on a massive metal box when churlish folk are firing at you is a sure way to get yourself killed. That said, I'm sure I saw an assault gun somewhere with a MG positioned for someone hanging on the roof/engine block to use.

Maybe they'll make a veteran skill to allow firing accurately from the back of a moving vehicle. Or just create a new stormtrooper class for doing it on account of that being how they solve most other problems. Those guys with the mag boots from Solo could probably do it.

Ug, an upgrade tax just to make a transport do its job? The real question is whether or not open-topped is paying for transport...