First, let me tell you that I love this game, and that this forum is a fantastic place to find new ideas.

Second, I have to say that the spaceship part of Rogue Trader was kind of light. We don't have a lot of ships to play with, just a few generic weapons, and not a lot of rules to play with. And IMO some balance problem. I have 2 main balancing problems: shooting distance and raider ship.

First the shooting distance.

The regular weapon reach is 6 VU, and everything except slow cruiser and merchant outrun this. Raider speed is 10 VU, light cruiser 7.
The meaning of this is that every weapon except laser battery (VU 9) is short range. That's also mean that fast ships, up to and including Light cruiser will be out of range in one turn, two if it start fleeing at point blank (of course you can follow the coward, if you are fast).

Now look at Battlefleet Gothic rules (best source of ships, like eldar, chaos, tau etc.. or just more imperial ships). Raiders speed is 30cm, frigate 25cm, cruiser 20cm and merchant 15cm. And basic weapon reach is 30cm.
That means that your average weapon reach should be something like 9 or 10 VU, not 6. And long range laser battery should have a range of 15 VU. This is STILL very short range when compare to speed, but a little bit more playable. It now takes 2 or 3 turns to flee out of range.

R(a)iders on the storm

My second concern is the almost equal power of destruction of every ship.
I mean, ok, cruiser have 2 broadside batteries and a prow, compare to 1 dorsal and 1 prow for a raider. That means that cruisers have one more shoot (at possibly STR 6), slightly better armour and more than double hit points. And that’s it.
Now the infamous Havoc-class raider: you can fit this beast with a plasma battery and a lance battery. With your speed and manoeuvrability, short range is not a problem, and you can always shoot from the front. You still have space for a reinforced Hull and armour.
You can fight a cruiser and easily win, manoeuvring in his back and shooting him with your capital-class weapons. You have almost the same armour, and only half the hit points. And you are just an escort ship.

Let’s again have a look at Battlefleet Gothic:
Hit points :
BG: Lunar-class cruiser have 8 hit points, Destroyer (Navy raider) have 1 hit point. Only ONE. 8 time less that a cruiser.
RT: Lunar-class 70 Hull integrity, Havok 30 Hull. Uh...

Speed:
BG :Lunar-class speed 20cm, Destroyer speed 30cm. That’s 50% more.
RT : Lunar-class speed 5 VU, Destroyer speed 10 VU. That’s 100% more.

Weapons.:
Raider :STR 2 for dorsal battery, STR 1 for lance.
Cruiser : STR 6 broadside battery, STR 2 lance (port and starboard), STR 6 torpedo in front.

Conclusion :
For me, raiders are overpowered in Rogue Trader : 2 time the speed of a cruiser, only half the hit points, and access to the same class of weapon.
Also, the range of the weapon, compare to speed of the ships, hugely help fast ships like raiders, making them impossible to defeat. Except at very close range, they are out of range (and I mean maximum range) in one turn. And they can shoot at full force from the front arc, making speed and manoeuvrability more important.
Well, they cost half the ship points. But 25 profit factor IS a big deal.

Solution:
Well, this is what I use. it is not perfect, because BG and RT don't work the same way. BG is a board game, where the life and death of one destroyer or cruiser is not a very big deal. In RT, this is your ship, your life, and it IS a pretty big deal, so the focus is not the same.

Raider should have 10 Hull Integrity and 10 armour (read the description: it is glass cannon).
They should be limited to thunderstike macrocannon and starbreaker lance.
With this big nerf, I let speed and manoeuvrability the same. They are still better than the destroyers in Battlefleet Gothic, and you can still upgrade them.

Frigate should be somewhere between 20 and 25 Hull integrity with the same armour.

Light cruiser are perfect.

Cruiser goes up to 80 hull integrity.

For weapon range, I use:

Thunderstrike : 7VU
Mars pattern : 10 VU
Sunsear (laser) : 15 VU
Ryza (plasma) : 8 VU
Starbreaker lance : 8 VU
Titanforge lance : 10 VU

After a lot of testing, I fell this is better and more on par with Battlefleet Gothic, but without the limitations of the board game.
Raiders are still very dangerous, and 3 of them will destroy a single cruiser almost every time (so a cruiser should use some escort ships). One to one, they are not really a match for a frigate (and they should not be).
They will no more charge a merchant ship head-on, but using hugely superior speed and manoeuvrability, they will do whatever they want from an isolated merchant.

With 10 armour 10 Hull integrity, a raider can take a good salvo of another raider and still be kicking : first hit goes in the void shield, second hit make an average 6 points of damage, right in the armour, and the last hit (if any) will make another average 6 points. So it is an average 6 hull damage on a full salvo. Big hit, but not a killing blow.

A good salvo from a broadside battery (or two broadside batteries if it's a cruiser shooting) will in all probability one-shot a raider. Well, I guess this is why they fight in squadron, and try to out-manoeuvre capital ships.

Also, a raider can't take a lance hit that well. Almost every lance bigger that Starbreaker lance will cut a raider in two with a solid hit. Well, what did you expect? Lance are made for capital ship destruction. Shoot an imperial guard with a meltagun and see what happens...
A raider fighting a raider will have a very big advantage if he can shoot with his lance, front arc ONLY. That's like dogfight from WW2, with one trying to go in the 6 of the other.

It is something else than big badass Havok with plasma and lance batteries shooting everything into oblivion. It is a glass gun. It can still cause a LOT of critical hits to a cruiser with the lance, if it can avoid to be destroyed when closing in, and goes in his 6.
So, yes, it will take an ambush, and a lonely cruiser. Or you will have to work as a squadron, and shoot the escorts ships first. yes, it is VERY difficult to destroy a cruiser, and almost impossible to destroy a light cruiser, and you are at a big disadvantage in front of a frigate. And that's just the way I like it.

Actually, your (proposed) shooting ranges are a little short. Perhaps you missed the part on pp219 where it states:

Range : This is the range of the weapon. Starship weapons may be fired at targets no farther away than twice the weapon's range.

Coupled with the range modifiers described on the following page, this does a pretty good job of recreating the BfG column shifts (+10 to BS tests when fired at a target within half the listed range, -10 to BS tests when firing at a target that is at greater than the listed range, but not greater twice the listed range).

When you consider this, especially when comparing similar weapons batteries between systems, you find that while they have increased the speeds of vessels relative to firing ranges, it is by far less than you might think (and, in the case of the Sunsear, actually increased the range of the weapon far above its' BfG equivalent, which is mounted on the Sword).
That said, you may have a point on the relative speeds of different vessels (although it is possible to move double or even more a particular class' listed speed, by combining the Adjust Speed manoeuvre action with the Flank Speed extended action, not to mention bonuses from Components and Complications). Essentially, they've gone for less uniformity, more character skill.

The Raider is also not quite as overpowered as you might think, thanks to the changes in the way void shields and armour works in RT compared to BfG: in BfG, the primary factor in whether a shot hits is the target's armour rating, whereas in RT it is the skill of the firing crew/character. Combined with the fact that you can't knock out a ship's shields with light fire from one ship then pound her while her shields are down with another, it makes all the ships ridiculously more survivable. And ships with multiple shields (Cruisers, so far) are even more so than Raiders. When you consider also that escorts in BfG were assumed to be mission-killed by a lot of hits rather than destroyed outright, and starship combat in RT focuses more on the extended voyage and making good rather than set-piece naval battle simulations, I think the current balance is about right.

All that said, YMMV.

Well yes I take account that you can double the range with -10 BS, that's why it take up to 2 turns to get away from a cruiser.

Deathstar the raider is in the back of Imperator the cruiser, 2 VU away. It is quite easy to do since deathstar can turn 90 or 180° per turn, and Imperator can only turn 45 or 90°. Also, the raider move twice as fast as the cruiser.

So now, the cruiser is dead, since it only take 2 hits with the plasma battery to take down the void shields. At +10 BS and all the time in the world to adjust the blows, it is a piece of cake. When the shields are done, the heavy lance battery will give a big 2-Hits combo in the hull (and probably some good critical test). Again, the raider is using the same king of weapon than the cruiser. Weird.

Ok, now for some reason, Deathstar don't want to spend 5 turns killing the poor Imperator. maybe he have to take the kids at school or whatever.

So he make a cool Adjust bearing at Pilot +25. If the pilot is not a total looser, he will turn in 1 or 2 VU. So now he is now at 7 or 8 VU on starboard of the cruiser.

Only good way to go for the cruiser is to make a 45° turn as soon as possible, for a good broadside shooting. Pilot+10, easy to do. So now depending on the rolls, the raider is at something between 8 to 12 on broadside. Just the famous long range -10 BS distance.

Of course with 14 to 17 armour (depending on type of raider and upgrade) and 30+ hull points, he will take it. maybe some crit hit, maybe some repair to do, but the so called "glass cannon" will survive a full 2 broadside + lance volley. Of course if the cruiser score something like 10 hits for broadside and 2 from lance, and roll some 10 in damage rolls, the raider is toast. But you can one-shot a light cruiser with that king of blow.

Next turn, the raider will go full speed with Adjust speed. Don't bother with numbers, even without the manoeuvre, he is far far away by now. Probably more than 18 VU, so forget about extreme range laser battery.

This scenario is about a crazy raider doing stupid stuff. Why he is at 2 VU from a cruiser? This is insane. A good pirate will stay at 6 VU, to use his weapons without malus, or at 12 VU, just to be sure (-10 BS is not a big deal after all). With the same king of moves than before, he will be at more than 12 VU in the end of first turn, so no lance strike to fear.

And that's what i mean by "away in 1 or 2 turns".

Ok, so don't get me wrong : a raider should outmanoeuvre a cruiser even in his sleep, and a raider in your 6 should be very bad news. But a raider should not be out of reach in 1 turn, and more obviously, he should not survive a full strike from a cruiser, and should not use the same kind of weapon.

The only "Big ship only" weapon is the macro battery, and it is not even a good one : you have to make 5 level of success to use it at full power. With "only" 4 success, you are better with laser or plasma, since you have a crit of 4 and better range or damage.

So yeah, the broadside is almost crap. In fact it is good in one sort of fight : cruiser vs cruiser, at point-blank. Ok, why not?

But giving laser, plasma and battery lance to a tinny little escort ship like the raider? And half the hull point of a light cruiser? And only 1/4 less armour than a cruiser?

Right now, raiders hit as hard as light cruiser (and in all positions), turn at 90°, go faster than anyone, and can take a lot of punishement. This is not a glass canon, this is the ultimate starfighter.

By the way, frigates are also way too powerfull, but at least they can't use lance (no prow slot).

I've been thinking about what you posted and i've looked around and found some interesting stuff to chew on:

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How can that Cruiser get away?

You can escape combat using the stern chase rules page 216. Cruisers would have a hard time but it can be done.

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Why Cruisers have Escorts:

Cruisers are NOT meant to fight by themselves. They are deployed with escorts by the Imperial Navy for a reason. Namely to avoid being chewed up by faster lance equipped vessels. While a cruiser may patrol alone a commander that faces several raiders would be quite correct in fleeing until help arrived.

Note in Lure of the Expanse, MANY of the larger vessels are noted to have escorts.

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I'm confused by the strength rating on a Titanforge Battery : 2, when hits by lances are determined by successes (+1 hit per 3 successes). Does this mean you can only have 1 EXTRA hit on lances and 2 max on a titanforge battery?

Liklihood you'd have a Titanforge Lance Battery on a raider:

Raiders have a dorsal and prow mount so they need to come at the enemy with their nose so they can combine hits to get past armor (remember your lance is gone even if it hits because of the void shields so fire with it LAST). Your example of a Lance and a Plasma (21 power to field the TFLB and Ryza, seems a bit hard to do considering warp engines take ten more leaving you with 14 or less power for the rest of your components: geller 1, Bridge, minimum 1, void shields 5, life sustainers, minimum 3, crew quarters minimum 1, auger minimum 3 and you have what left: ZERO power for other components, nice stripped little ship there).

Very unlikely. Maybe an ork would do it.

Contradictory lance crits...

Page 221 gives an example of a lance hit indicating four successes on a hit but it does NOT show the lance hitting multiple times because of this. According to page 220 this would mean TWO lance strikes. The lances are also given a strength rating on page 202, why? Strength is used to determine multiple hits on macrobattereis but if all you need is 1 hit per three successes (page 220) why bother giving them a str rating?

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So you have a single lance on your raider and a 4 strength ryza plasma?

I'll assume you save your lance for last. Why? IF the Ryza scores minimum 2 successes (knocking down the twin void shields) you can shoot the lance to bypass armor.

Why?

Unless you want to waste an automatic through armour hit (the lance) itll be absorbed by the void shields if you shoot it first.

If you miss with the ryza or get only 1 hit don't bother firing the lance unless your good at scoring three successes ona lance hit allowing you to do more than one hit with the lance. I would but I always play against the odds. My ships have holes in them because of this.

Raiders will get scorched unless they attack in groups of two or more or have insane good luck rolling hits and damage and crits and or the Cruiser captain is a complete dolt without escort and the worst dice luck.

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KEEL Weapons are the S**t:

Of course if your a canny Rogue you can install KEEL weapons instead of a PROW mount...page 219 a small paragraph at the bottom (2nd paragraph from last) right. Keel weapons can fire in ANY direction. Screw the lousy little raider when he darts in on your 6.

I haven't found any official source to allow it so we convinced our GM to allow us to install a KEEL weapon after we encountered an Eldar Raider that tried the same tricks, we outran him with a Stern Chase manoeuvre. So feel free to use your discretion and allow the installation of a KEEL mount instead of PROW mount weapon to deal with Raiders IF you have NO escorts.

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I would assume Battery Strengths operate on the same ruling as Semi-auto does, which is to say the Strength is the maximum number of hits the weapon can achive. The Strength rating of the Titanforge Lance Battery is to indicate that it can acheave a maximum of two hits, as opposed to the other lances, which can only acheave one hit. This is also why there's only one hit in the example, the example does not use a Titanforge Lance Battery.

miollnit said:

I disagree. The nice thing about broadsides is the linked fire option, so if the nice and squishy raider comes into one of the firing arcs, he will get such a beating that he will not make another pass. And with the necessary upgrades and the aim action, getting max hits is not too hard. add a munitorium to the equation and the raider will eat 11d + 33 damage with one hit. At 30-ish HP.

miollnit said:

As Bobh pointed out, to mount a lance and plasma battery you are looking at one stripped down raider.

Now may players have a fairly nice cruiser and let me tell you, they'd have no problems pulling apart that raider.

Firstly, you ignore hit and run attacks. The cruiser has so much room room to mount barracks, murder servitors and teleportariums that it has a massive advantage in hit and runs.

Secondly, you ignore the minimum move distance. A raider MUST move half its speed or its full speed. This can be modified with piloting actions but realistically staying put behind a cruiser (which can choose to move only 3 VU a turn WITHOUT any kind of piloting check) for more than a turn is actually quite hard. Especially since he is going to be trying to get you in his broadside arcs.

Third, as pointed out already, cruisers are capital ships and aren't designed to travel alone. A lone cruiser should find a single raider annoying and multiple raiders deadly. Its quite right that a single cruiser should be chewed up by multiple raiders, this is why cruisers should have escorts of their own or travel in squadrons.

Frigates make great escorts due to their fantastic firing arcs and general all round badassness.

Finally, from a rogue traders point of view, although very dangerous, that raider is also a bit crap at all the other stuff you want to be doing such as exploring, trading, conquering, etc.

I honestly don't see raiders as at all over powered.

Quick side note. The last session I ran had a raider on raider battle on my newly made space board, once you are working on the squares it really becomes apparent how nippy these little devils are. Both vessels were zooming all over the place in an effort to get their foe in their front arc while being out of the front arc of the enemy. It was a wonderfully tense encounter.

Well, you can fit a plasma battery AND a lance battery on a raider.

You still have space for more armour or hull, and you can fit funny things like a non-powered temple-shrine or whatever.

When they are not killing poor merchants, the pirates deplug the lance battery and plug the shrine, praying the Emperor to give them a victim. When a ship is nearby, they deplug the shrine, and replug the lance. Yes, it's crazy. Crazy, bloody pirates!

As for the lance: 3 level of success on a single lance means a direct hit to the hull and a roll on the crit table. 3 deegres of success with a lance battery mean TWO direct hits to the hull, ignoring the 20 points of armour of the cruiser AND a roll on the crit table.

Why a plasma battery? Well the raider is FAST, so the short range of the guns is not a problem. The STR is 4, so with 3 degrees of success it's 4 D10+4 hit. On 4 degrees of success it's 4 hits and a special rule for the crit table. Please notes the +4 bonus, not +2 like all the other batteries. When you are shooting at a 20 armour ship, this is quite helpful. In fact, this is the only non broadside battery with a good chance to hurt a cruiser.

So, you need 1 degree of success with the battery to down the void shields. After that, it's lance battery time. If you score more than that, it's free lunch.

Yes, of course, a cruiser should have escort ships. Should. If you start the game with a cruiser, chances are you will not be able to buy some escorts for quite some time (so don't start with a cruiser, or ask for help, I know). But this is not the point.

The point is the raider is NOT a glass cannon. It is quite a cannon, yes, but not the glass part.

As for the 12 broadside hits, that mean 2 rolls with 5 degrees of success. That's 50% less than your BS on two rolls. You can aim, but he can use Evasive Manoeuvres with a +25 Manoeuvrability ship.

To one-shot a raider, you need 16 (armour) + 30 (hull) damage. Adverage D10+2 = 8. So you need a 7 hits volley (1 for the void, 6 for the damage). But don't forget the cruiser probably have a multidirectional lance, too.

Try it, then try it again, using aiming, evasive, put your back, whatever. In my book, the raider is destroyed 1 on 6 (in fact it's more like 1 on 9, but I fell like the dices were not with the cruiser). WITH the lance battery strikes.

This is just insane. A raider can go head-on on a cruiser and survive. Better yet, he possess the firepower of a light cruiser. A fast, nimble, resistant and heavily armed escort ship. Make it 3 (lore wise the cost of a light cruiser) or make it 6 (cost of a cruiser) and wath them burn everything.

you can't have a titanforge lance battery and a plasma unless you want to strip that baby down bad

even a regular titan forge lance no battery frees up only four more power.

meaning you'll likely have a max 1 extra hit lance that cant break a cruisers void shields all by itself, ever.

confining you to head on attacks with that prow lance and dorsal plasma to really deal out damage

that was my point, a single raider is no real threat to a cruiser with a smart captain and even a little luck on the dice

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If i were a priest of the Creed and the captain dared to depower His shrine there'd be a frigging mutiny. It doesn't even feel right for God-Emperor fearing pirates.

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your lance only gets to hi tthe ship if the void shields are down, see above. you need to hit WELL with the plasma FIRST

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so your diving in at the cruisers range for his braodside nose on when he turns and lets you have it...nice...your dead...probably - again the dice god-emperor willing are with you, whoever you are

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we started the game with four rogue traders and a navigator and astropath (four ships in our flotilla), two cruisers a transport and a raider. if you only start with a single ship in your dynasty i'm kinda sad for you. but to each gm his own its been tough as all hell to keep those ships in shape.

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actually that cruiser can ignore your armor if he has some 'lance' batteries on a broadside....and a keel mounted lance...like our cruiser, after we learned our lesson. Your raider is DEAD.

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No offense but your getting caught up in the raiders hull points. Scan the bugger at range with an escort, then crit him to hell picking your crits and hes dead in one round.

bobh said:

I like speaking of this. It beats working. So:

1- You can see this that way or the other way around. There is no saying of what a bunch of crazy pirates will do next. they are almost like ork, for Throne's sake! And for me it is not real religious fever, just superstition (ok, all the Creed or Mechanicus is superstition, but hey! it's working).

See, it's like "oh please god give me 3 millions and i will pray and build you a church" but you don't even believe in god, so when you win the lottery you just spend it on Vegas.

2- My lance battery makes 2 hits when I roll 30% under the difficulty number. My plasma guns down the shields when I roll 10% under. 1 degree of success is not THAT hard. If I don't make it, it's like a miss. Too bad, but I will do better next turn.

3- Well you are a stupid pirate to do that, but still, if you do it with the "evasive manoeuv." action, it's -10 to BS and -10 per degree.Since you got a +25 manoeuv. ship, it is quite an easy roll. Let see if this cruiser hits you. As I said, I tried this again and again.

4- Well, why not... IMO the game is about one rogue trader and his friends. So yeah it's only one ship, but you can still rent some escort. Later, why not buy some? Start little, grow bigger, that's the fun of it. But to each his own.

5- **** right I am. 16 armour? 30+ hull points? Half as durable as a cruiser, with extrem speed and capital guns? This is not a glasss cannon, this is doom.

Oh, and yes it is an extrem build, but this kind of ship is made for one and one thing alone : kill stuff. You don't try to make some commerce with a F-22, you just shoot stuff. Pirates don't want to make exploration achievement, or trade achievement, in fact they don't want to make any kind of achievement. They just want to **** and kill and loot (in that order or another).

So yes, the raiders are waiting inside their ships, in crappy rooms. And it smells. And the food is... Well, let's not speak about what they have to eat after 90 days on space. They are on the verge of mutiny every single day, and the captain never sleep without his hellgun. If he don't find something to loot, and soon, they will kill him, eat him, head for a space station and sell the ship, just to drink.

That's why they will attack you like rabid wolves.

They don't need luxury, they don't need clean air, pressed-crew quarters are almost too good for them. They live in ****, and every money they make, they put it in bigger guns or they drink it. They are space scum, and they will kill you! (and they will, because they have a titanium-made glass cannon)

Not so sure about your point on evasive manoeuvres. You can use it to get close and the cruiser will have a hard time hitting you, but the penalties to ballistic skill apply to you too so its not like you'll have anymore luck hitting him either. Evasive manoeuvres are only really good for fleeing or for turns when you don't need to shoot.

Also as you mentioned, morale on the pirates will be rock bottom with you havin to strip out any morale related components. This makes them even more vulnerable to hit and runs attacks and hull damage. A pirate captain flying such a ship could find himself facing a mutiny if things go even slightly against him.

On turning the power to the temple off.........really? That would definately be a cause of massive morale penalties if not outright mutiny. Sailors and pirates of course being rather well known for being superstitious fellows.

Of course religion in the 40k universe isn't so much superstition since the God Emperor does actually exist. The ships astropaths and navigators can confirm this (astropaths having met the Emperor and Navigators regularly beholding the divine essence that is the astronomicon).

Much more sensible would be a mars pattern macrobattery and single lance on a raider. Still nasty, especially in squadrons.

Don't ignore hit and runs. The ability to cause crit hits is really nasty against small ships (engines? there goes your ability to keep that cruiser in your forward arc).

I believe this is a case of max min again... How can I power tool this guy to be the oufff!!!

Seriously a titan lance battery on a raider? The Battery is probably worth more then the raider... same thing goes for the plasma.

You may be able to get that cruiser down but what then? You have no troops, very little moral and no cargo room. If the crew of the cruiser is not dead you will never be able to take the cruiser, only destroy it. Which by my account leads directly to a mutiny (Pirates like money. No money no funny Kap'Tin!).

The ship is broken and sounds much more like a system ship then a real ship IMO, it really nothing else then a mobile defense platform and would not old for any kind a medium to long voyage.

What kind of sensor does it have? I hope it's got very good ones... cause this guy is waiting for my crew's typical ambushed powered down light cruiser.

Their ship is totally inverse to yours, not super well armed & not super fast but it would find yours very fast and start pummeling form afar while launching boarding party and use it's servitor to cripple you if you get close enough.

Or they could probably just buy out your crew form under you, a well placed hit and run attack on a raider can produce miracles if you hit the crew moral and actually try to win them over...

Followers of the Emperor, throw down your shackles, kill the traitor, kill the heretic!! Revolt loyal servant of the Emperor! We will save you...

Honestly with the Atomic Raider of Doom I really fail to see how it can really take a cruiser. (Assuming the cruiser captain is smart.) Sure if it some how starts behind the cruiser it's going to do some damage, but so would a cruiser starting combat behind the raider.

The real problem with a raider staying in the cruiser's real arc is speed. The cruiser is going about 3 while the raider is going about 9. The raider's weapons range is about what it moves. Thus the best thing a cruiser can do is stop. (Which isn't hard given it only needs 3 sucesses.) In order not to over shoot into the arc of death the raider has to dump a lot of speed every round. Not to mention if they get too close they are in hit and run territory. One good raid takes down the lance. Without a lance the raider can't damage the cruiser. Of course staying out of hit and run range means the cruiser could try turning twice, and get the raider in a broad side.

I've got to agree with everyone else, you are overly focusing on an unrealistic scenario, and even then only looking at one facet of it. Your ship is still a glass cannon, just from a moral perspective instead of an HP perspective.

And who is maintaining these incredably advanced weapons on a rogue ship? Weapons that require vast amounts of influence to aquire and maintain? The Ad-Mech? (it must be, since they are the only ones who can)

And you are ignoring everything except damage output. A cruiser isn't just about weapons. A cruiser has room for advanced components and morale boosting utilities, and a Rogue Traders cruiser is going to be outfitted with additional facilities for trading and exploration.

I don't really have a problem with a super min/maxed killing machine that can only exist due to high level conspiracy which has sacrificed all creature comforts, sensors, and other facilities in exchange for massive damage output being able to threaten a large, well rounded Rogue Traders vessal.

And even then, as has been pointed out, the thing is going to be fagile, and any decent captain is going to be able to hit the brakes, make called shots, perform hit and runs, lay ambushes, etc. etc. etc. to even things out. Heck, they take out that lance and suddenly your superstar is impotent.

As for "plugging in the shrine"...thats not how technology in the Imperium works, and you KNOW it. Any given raider wouldn't have any IDEA how to accomplish such a feat, nor would most tech-priests, and those that do would consider it herasy, not to mention the morale problems previously mentioned.

It just isn't the problem you make it out to be.

The beauty of cruisers is their versitality: they can carry enough components and weapons to handle most situations. Your escort has sacrificed everything to accomplish a single task, and I would have no problem with them being good at it. But make no mistake, they are still a glass cannon.

P.S. to the person who said "if your GM only starts you out with a single ship, I pity you"...that is how the rules are written. You pity people for using the dynasty generation tools provided in the book? It isn't an abnormal limitation, it is how the game was designed.

That being said, if you are flying a cruiser around without escorts (as you likely will be if you start with one), then YES it is going to be difficult to combat escorts starting out. You are trying to fight paper with rocks, when you really needed some scissors. If you plan on really getting into combat, your goal really should be to aquire some escorts ASAP.

Also, you can't have a Lance Battery on a raider, the errata changed it to light-cruisers and up only.

MILLANDSON said:

Ding ding ding! Here's the game balancer you were looking for. Do what I do: Get your rulebook and a highlighter, and highlight rules that have been changed and make a note at the bottom of the page that says where you can find the rule-change in the errata.

FoxPhoenix135 said:

You dare make marks in the rulebook!? Heresy I say!!!

Possibly even a light heresy?

A highlight heresy, you could say!

(In other news: I share the OPs concerns, but I don't think the case is sound. I think the ranges could have done with being extended relative to speed a bit, but it's not something that is glaringly conclusive, in my estimation.)

I generally agree that the raider could be a problem for a cruiser, but would have to have very good luck and the cruiser very bad to actually kill the cruiser. I know that as the captain of the cruiser I would have some sort of tech to make boarding a viable defense. On the note about starting characters only having one ship, does a family owned ship passed down the the character (or supplied by the administorium to ensure that tithe is collected from lost worlds) count as a single item? I generally allow it, although I build the ship based on its previous use. I tend to be more permissive on the initial acquisition as long as it fits with the campaign concepts and doesn't stretch logic too thin. For second ships I do not allow anything more expensive than the groups flaship. That keeps the group from building a 30 point transport and using their free buy to buy a decked out frigate or low end cruiser.

My starting group is using a pair of Orion Class Star Cutters. One is outfitted witha pair of Staravar laser batteries (range 12) and the other with a pair of Mars Macrocannons (one Keel and one Dorsal each). The first ship is their flagship. The plan in combat is to keep at least 12 units from the enemy and chip away trying for crits. The second is a troopship/cargo ship for collecting tithe owed by several planets in the expanse. The planets are overdue by 200 years. Of course, those planets haven't seen a ship in that long due to the orginial founder dying. The players are charged with collecting the tithe and providing the Administorium with information to ensure that the planets are paying enough. They are hoping to find the remains of the original founder or his base of operations. Too bad that he build his base next to an ancient dead eldar city that houses a brothel now acting as a shrine to Slannesh...

hm... somehow posted in wrong forum. Sorry for resurrection.