0 shuffle

By Simplegarak, in KeyForge

Bit of a rules question but also a philosophical one.

"Not Finished With You" is a Dis action that says " Play: Shuffle any number of creatures from your discard pile into your deck."

This wasn't rules vital (casual game, not a tournament) but some of us started a debate because I played it at a time my discard pile was empty of creatures. Based upon the rule of "do as much as you can"... Do I get to (or have to) reshuffle my deck even if I select 0 creatures?

What about philosophically across games in general? Can you use "0" in these instances to induce a reshuffle of your deck?

(I'll also know who's the database nerds here when they argue 0 <> NULL - which was my argument for why you should get the reshuffle)

Edited by Simplegarak

From past history, IMO I would say yes. Zero is 'any number' so you would shuffle zero creatures into your deck, thus shuffling your deck.

This could go a few ways -

  1. If you don't know the order of your deck, then you don't need to shuffle if you don't want to. Your deck is sufficiently randomized, and the shuffle effect is there for that exact purpose after the effect resolves.
  2. You shuffle once and offer a cut. This is the least amount of actions that still fulfills the criteria of the card.
  3. There is a minute or so left in the round and you are tied on keys and up on aember. You could play this and spend that minute shuffling because the card says to shuffle even though it isn't advancing the board state.

I am a proponent of the first one since I have an extensive Magic background coming into this game and like to take the least amount of actions possible to play my turns quickly. See cards like "Mind's Desire" which require you to shuffle your deck for each copy of the spell. Tournament shortcuts allow that you only need to shuffle sufficiently once and can exile N cards from the top without having to shuffle between each time as long as you don't learn the order of your deck in between. By removing the top card of the deck afterwards, I still don't know the order of the rest of my previously shuffled deck. In regards to "NFWY", I have added zero cards to my library, of which I don't know the order, therefore it is still shuffled.

The second one is the more sportsman like approach, which takes minimal effort, but from both players. One sufficient shuffle from me, one cut from you. All actions have been completed and we move forward.

The last one involves me pile-shuffling my deck into one card piles, then combining into two cards, four cards, etc. doing a riffle, a bridge, and a probably getting a bunch of glowering stares and/or an atomic wedgie in the bathroom. Although it has only come up twice in the times I have got to tournaments, there are still no hard tournament rules for "slow play" and no judges to enforce it yet.