Recently I have had a lot of trouble not killing my PCs accidentally and I need some advice to pass along to them either behaviorally or in their advance choices that will help them survive. The most recent example was a hive thug that hosed down an adept with a full auto burst from an autogun at point blank range scoring seven hits with a to hit roll of 4 (25BS + 30 PB + 20 full auto = 75) each dealing 1d10+3 damage on her measly 2 toughness + 1 ap. It resulted in somewhere around 50 damage or 37 critical damage effectively turning her into mist.... Since I rolled this behind a screen I decided to skip the re-rolling a new character two hours into the game and just burn one of her fate points... Anyhow, I find the incredible fragility of my PCs somewhat concerning as well as the frightening spikiness of damage (PC hit a thug for 30 damage with a stub revolver, hit 10, confirm crit, 10, 7, +3, effectively sending him into orbit), so any advice is welcome...

Well, that's one of the main functions of Fate Points. If a players character gets killed and they still have a maximum fate point total of 1+, then the player can opt to reduce their maximum fate point total by one "burning a fate point" to somehow survive what could have killed them. Really, you could have rolled in front of the screen and the player could have still chosen to burn the fate point by the RAW. It's what keeps characters alive for a bit in this game.

Beyond that:

1. Don't get into gun fights (or chainsword fights, or power sword fights, etc) if your TB is <5 and all you have is primitive armour.
2. Point-Black Full Auto is just brutal, but point-blank simi-auto with a combat shotgun is even more so... never mind what a storm bolter will do. Don't get caught in that situation.
3. Get behind cover.
4. Run! Then ambush them latter.

Um ... yep. Pretty much what Graver said.

Low Rank Acolytes are, and always have been, a bit squishy in DH. In order to survive to higher ranks, you have to play smart, use every advantage you can, and not be afraid to run away when appropriate (which in the games I've played in, is most of the time).

...by the way: how did one of your players (or npc?) achieved 30 points of damage with a meager stub revolver?

Anyway, in additin to what graver pointed out I would strongly advise a house-ruled mesh vest. Just take a normal mesh vest, reduce the AP to 3 and cost&weight from 100% to 75%. I was inspired through an entry in DotdG where one of the merchant agents of the Amarathine Syndicate seems to wear such a thing. The main point: it is said to be concilable

Funny thing: I have the opposite problem! But then again, my pc are running around in mesh and military flak armour in a "primitive arms environment".

As the other guys and gals said. If every combat is life-threatening, then you're doing it right. Carry on, mywaywardson

I think the main problems in this situation were:

1. TB 2 isn't a good idea for any acolyte, 3 or 4 is almost required to survive.

2. armor 1? She's wearing a quilted vest or leather I think... which is almost useless (luckily primitive armor is rounded up). Once the acolytes gets some gear standard is between 6 and 8 damage reduction from TB+Armor, so those full-auto bursts aren't autokill. That said FA is extremly dangerous, especially at point-blank.

3. She let herself be shot at PB in full auto...

Dark Heresy is even better suited than nuclear strikes and hot lava for that old advice from the ever-helpful US government of the 1950's-60's:

Duck and Cover!

This is not D&D and you will not "lose XP" for realizing that it is a good idea to bug out when a 50 strong hive-gang lays an ambush for you and your 4 friends.... If anything you will earn MORE xp for being smart enough to haul @ss, plus you will probably save yourself a few hours of scraping together a new character. You work for the Inquisition now! They do not play fair, they play to win! Fight on your terms, not theirs. Slink off into the shadows when that example gang lays a trap, then conjure up some evidence against them and get the local Magistrates to launch a raid against the criminal riff-raff... Then sneak into their headquarters during the fighting, stuff the leader into a sack and pull a vanishing act. Now you have a prisoner to interrogate! THAT is how a DH game goes!

Also: If you are a super-squishy character like the example adept then by all means, hide behind big heavy stuff when military weapons come out. When there is an annoying lack of terrain to hide behind members of my group have resorted to using the Techpriest as mobile cover... Or in one mission our Psyker got her hands on a nice big riot shield and made gleeful use of the "taking cover behind a shield" rule; Other team members then moved up behind her and stuck a rifle over the top of the shield... Between the two characters all that was exposed was a single head, at least from the front.

From what I understand from the RAW, the maximum benefit (or penalty) that any attacker can accrue is +30 (ref. p197 "Combining Difficulties"). Being as the event already occurred, all you can do is look forward and figure out whether something like that will contribute to moving the plot forward, or hinder it. This is also mitigated by a couple of factors:

• Did the player act in a blatantly foolish manner? (If so, then let the chips fall where they may)
• Was this an ambush where the adept was completely unaware? (If so, burn that fate and move on)

Also, Greg, the OP did outline how the 30 damage occurred (or, can occur) from a stub pistol: hit, roll damage of 10, confirm crit and roll add'l damage of 10, roll of 7, add 3 for stub revolver= 30 damage. In this unlikely event, then the hapless Acolyte will have to either soak a ton of damage, or spend that fate point.

Illithidelderbrain said:

Per DH eratta maximum modifiers are +/- 60.

ZillaPrime said:

thanks for the reminder Zilla.

I agree with what just about everyone else here has said. Combat in DH is not about advancing your character in a certain way, (although that's not to say it doesn't help) it's about fighting smart and not, for example, walking up to try to negotiate with a psychic interrogator and her stubber-wielding arbite bodyguard with your adept PC. Fate was burned that day.

Agreed on all fronts. Sometimes it's best to write off a situation as just bad luck on the part of the Acolytes concerned, scratch the Fate and move on. In various different games over the years the various gaming groups I have been associated with have had characters killed by everything you can think of - including one who was killed by an animated clock mechanism once (that swept him out the front of the clock tower and then deposited him 50' to the cobblestones below). I think the advice about boxing clever and avoiding getting weakly armed adepts into intense combat situations is sound, although it can be surprising what a humble pencil pusher with a stub auto can do sometimes if lady luck is in town.

In any case, anyone who has ever played 40K and whined about it, know that sometimes the fickle gods of chance are just not in your favour - so a judicious use of fate and a slightly unbelievable slip in the narrative realism later, and your character wakes up sore but alive.

Thanks for all your input everyone, I think I'll go over with them the gravity of their "grimdark" universe before we play this weekend and explain that big thick ceramite walls are their friends. Either that or hide behind the big feral guardsman who soaks eight. I think the picture on page 28 of the ascension book is quite comically apt for their party at the moment and until they gather some better gear and wounds they had best stay away from fast moving lead.

BTW: Mechanically speaking, is it worth sacrificing some breadth early on to pick up toughness and sound constitution? Seems to me that an early focus in survivability might aid them in surviving to the higher ranks even if they don't have all those handy skills/talents.

I currently have 6 players and only 3 of them are "original" Acolytes from the very first night. We actually discussed the whole "death" subject and Fate Points and came to the conclusions listed above... it is a grim, dark future and gunfire hurts. After a few story arcs, the group actually started calling in the local enforcers to take do bad guys or "hire" thugs to act as frontline cannon fodder.

My recommendation is don't change how you are playing, but simply discuss how things could have been done differently and let them learn.

For the record: The Maggots in the Meat adventure found in the GM kit will KILL PLAYERS DEAD if it is run like a straight up fight... the Slaugth are smarter than fighting and risking actually proof of existence.

-Cynr

The keys as many above posters have stated are:

1) Armor- The starting armor for many classes is just silly. Every PC needs at least 3 points of armor. When I was GMing DH (rather than RT) the 1st thing their Inquisitor did after the 1st mission was to open his armory to the players*.

2)Cover- An adept's 1st move in combat should be to seek cover.

3)Fate points- Burning a fate point saves a life, but spending fate points makes a huge difference. You can spend a fate point to heal 1d5 wound at any time. Even as they are taking damage. You may want to refresh the PCs fate points more often than once a session.

4)Healing- Make sure the PCs have access to some sort of healing. Remind the PCs they can stop for NPC healing. An NPC with various healing talents can easily heal 4-5 wounds. A tech priest, or high rank adept with unnatural int can heal 8-12 wounds. If the PCs have a psyker he/she need to get the minor healing power.

*Smart players grabbed armored body gloves (IH) or battered looking (but good quality)flak armor. (Not so smart players loaded up on high end gear despite their next mission being undercover, got caught smuggling it past customs by their boss's pet Arbiters, and spent some quality time in jail.) This isn't D&D PCs working for a man able to requisition entire naval ship, armies, and sign orders to doom worlds should have the gear they need. That said just because they want chain swords and boltgun doesn't mean they need them. Carting around high gear gets the PCs noticed.

In general I'd have the Inquisitor or the PCs primary contact go over the party's skill, talents, and gear. Have them suggest/provide trainning/gear. It makes no sense that the Inquisition would ignore obvious weak points in the PCs team.

Well everyone has pretty much said what needs to be said GUN COMBAT CAN BE YOUR DEATH....of course so can psykers and ambushes....and well the list goes one. This is a grim dark future and the PCs are playing in it.

Full auto can be the death of an under prepared group....but working for the =][= the PCs might have the chance to ask for better gear before going out on the mission. My group and I have looked into bringing the RT profit rules over into DH and converting them a little more to fit better in the system and the fluff.

I would suggest that you look into it so that gearing your PCs up becomes less of a hassle.....and of course if you want opening the RT armory to them once they aquire higher ranks

It's well established that combat in DH is pretty **** deadly.

As GM, its part of your job to make it appropriately deadly. Hosing a crape-paper Acolyte with full auto has pretty predictable effects. If you don't actually want to kill the PC, or make them horribly maimed, then use different weapons. with a total soak of 3, a mercy-killer is deadly, let alone an autogun!

Equip enemies appropriately to the level of the PC's. This also includes the tactics they use. an ambush with hidden snipers is very deadly, even if they've just got Steadhold leaver guns.

Get to know how much punishment your PC's can take, do some test rolls with different weapons and different scenarios to see what kind of effects you can expect.

It also depends on what your players want from the game, do they expect to be the heroes, or do they want everything Grimdark?

mywaywardson said:

If you can get your TB to 4 early on you should always do this. It will help you the entire career and will literally save your life. TB 4+Guard flak or Mesh means you can survive normal gunfights (autopistols, stubs, etc.) fairly easily. You take almost no damage from an average hit from a Stub automatic or Autogun (0 or 1).

Buying Sound Constitution, although boring, is also very good idea, especially if they cost 100xp per. However you should balance this out with skills you might think is necessary. Nothing so disappointing as a Scum who everyone suddenly realized has no Security skill, or a Cleric without the appropriate social skill. Buying the right weapon trainings is also very important early on, especially if you're stuck with Las pistols or some other crap when you could be using Autopistol or Autogun, maybe of a shotgun variety.

As for Maggots in the Meat.... SPOILER!

One more thing to everything you guys said: save (as the book actually suggests) Emperor's Fury only for main badguys. My players used to die or almost-die in far too many fights. Yes, it was brutal, and as some people would say 'realistic' when even a measly underhiver could score a killing hit on an acolyte thanks to re-rolled damage die. But it was also frustrating for both me and the players. So now only bosses (and sub-bosses), generally significant characters, get to re-roll their damage. And this also makes them feared /respected more

Skie said:

A pretty safe "rule of thumb" is that characters with Fate Points get Fury. This includes player characters, obviously, but it also includes NPCs. Thus the "big baddie" or other important character. Mooks are, well... mooks. Tabletop 40K can even be said to make use of a semi-related system: Only special characters, officers and so on have multiple wounds, thus requiring more than one "killing blow" to actually drop such an awesome individual! Sounds a little bit like a burnt fate point...

If you played the old WEG Star Wars D6 game consider Fate Points to be esentially the same idea as Force Points. Characters who have Force Points (NOT just Force users, despite the name) are pretty distinctive, always named and generally have a reasonably important heroic/villainous role to play in the story. It is these types of characters who would gain the Emperor's Fury!

As a fun but more complicated twist on Fate/Fury you could have dedicated followers of the Ruinous Powers who are important enough to warrant the effort, have them Fury on the special number of their god instead of a 10 (Ten being the number of the Emperor!). So say on a 6 a chaos champion might invoke "Slaneesh's Fury"... Slightly more cumbersome, but it definately adds some flavour.