W hile I actually agree with the errata decisions in general, what I think would have been best for Library Access and to stop future recursion abuses is to change the rules to where Action cards played to not go to the discard pile until end of turn. I t has been seen in many of FFG's card games the danger of recursion (Lukas Litzinger of Netrunner and Star Wars: Destiny commented on this himself). And I think in Keyforge, the danger is even higher since there is no resource system. I am not sure what Brad Andres and the rest of the design team think about recursion or how they implement it into their design, but I fear it may limit the design space in the future as the potential for overpowered loops or extreme NPE is high with recursion possibilities. And in a game where your opponent cannot interact on your turn, the more options or actions you get, the greater chance for such degenerate combos.

The other option is to limit how many cards can be played in one turn (to probably 6). I realize the game was not designed this way and they want interesting combos or bounces to occur. But, I could see this balancing out all factions. Not more super Untamed turns of Full Moon+Dust Pixie+Dust Pixie+Nature's Call+Dust Pixie+Dust Pixie+Key Charge...etc. Those turns are usually even bigger culprits of replaying cards. In fact, card play limits could open up design space for things that could give additional card plays (or not count towards the limit).

Anyways, time to end the rant. I think the errata is fine and will hopefully open the meta. But, I have a big feeling we will see more changes in the future. And honestly, I look forward to it. FFG is trying something huge here with a Unique game, something never done before. It will take time to get it perfect and until then, I will love almost every minute of it

As far as a limit on playing cards in a turn, they have that. It's called the rule of 6. This makes it possible for people to still pull off cool combos without creating infinite loops. I don't think saying cards don't go to the discard until the end of the turn is a good idea. Some of my best turns have been using natures call to send dust pixie or flaxia back to my hand, play them, and then use nepenthe seed or witch of the eye to repeat this effect. I don't think this is broken in any way shape or form. Honestly it just comes down to seeing those cards in your hand or on the field and putting together the best way to make them work for you. This play also requires at least one turn set up so it is easily possible to stop it from happening.

23 minutes ago, Nellac said:

As far as a limit on playing cards in a turn, they have that. It's called the rule of 6. This makes it possible for people to still pull off cool combos without creating infinite loops. I don't think saying cards don't go to the discard until the end of the turn is a good idea. Some of my best turns have been using natures call to send dust pixie or flaxia back to my hand, play them, and then use nepenthe seed or witch of the eye to repeat this effect. I don't think this is broken in any way shape or form. Honestly it just comes down to seeing those cards in your hand or on the field and putting together the best way to make them work for you. This play also requires at least one turn set up so it is easily possible to stop it from happening.

I don't mean the rule of 6. I mean 6 cards "Played" total in a turn. I did a similar turn you mentioned on turn two once, which meant no time for an opponent to prepare for it. I lucked out with Full Moon+Niffle Ape (used with Speed Sigil to trade with a Witch of the Eye)+Dust Pixie+Dust Pixie+Nature's Call+Dust Pixie+Dixie Pixie+Nature's Call+Dust Pixie+Dust Pixie. 21 Aember turn 2 is just stupid, even if it's just luck. Is it cool feeling to execute it? Honestly? Not really. It takes no thought at all. Fortunately, AoA seems to be a bit more complex than the first set.

Do I like pulling off cool combos? Absolutely. Who doesn't. Do I like gaining an absurd advantage over my opponent with little thought or effort? Not really. Keyforge is an incredible game that I enjoy tremendously. I am the biggest proponent of the game in Louisville, KY. But does it have room for improvement? Most definitely. Keyforge could ultimately be one of the best games ever made if FFG takes care of it. It is doing things so differently than other than games. One set in and we see such quirky concepts as Legacy cards. Mavericks were already one of the most unique things about the game. But not 'time-shifted' cards? That is crazy. If people want a game to explore and discover, Keyforge is by the far the best game for it,.

I like the idea of 'Rule of 6' applying to cards played on a turn.

8 hours ago, KingOfOdonata said:

I don't mean the rule of 6. I mean 6 cards "Played" total in a turn. I did a similar turn you mentioned on turn two once, which meant no time for an opponent to prepare for it. I lucked out with Full Moon+Niffle Ape (used with Speed Sigil to trade with a Witch of the Eye)+Dust Pixie+Dust Pixie+Nature's Call+Dust Pixie+Dixie Pixie+Nature's Call+Dust Pixie+Dust Pixie. 21 Aember turn 2 is just stupid, even if it's just luck. Is it cool feeling to execute it? Honestly? Not really. It takes no thought at all. Fortunately, AoA seems to be a bit more complex than the first set.

Do I like pulling off cool combos? Absolutely. Who doesn't. Do I like gaining an absurd advantage over my opponent with little thought or effort? Not really. Keyforge is an incredible game that I enjoy tremendously. I am the biggest proponent of the game in Louisville, KY. But does it have room for improvement? Most definitely. Keyforge could ultimately be one of the best games ever made if FFG takes care of it. It is doing things so differently than other than games. One set in and we see such quirky concepts as Legacy cards. Mavericks were already one of the most unique things about the game. But not 'time-shifted' cards? That is crazy. If people want a game to explore and discover, Keyforge is by the far the best game for it,.

Great turn two, until your opponent hits you with a Too much to protect on their turn. I think the great thing about this game is there is always a counter, which is why they hit the eratta, when there is no counter it stinks for everyone.

4 minutes ago, dpuck1998 said:

Great turn two, until your opponent hits you with a Too much to protect on their turn. I think the great thing about this game is there is always a counter, which is why they hit the eratta, when there is no counter it stinks for everyone.

Lol. The format was Archon and I knew he didn't have an answer like that, otherwise I would have held back. I think people forget in this game, not every deck has those answers nor is there a way to ensure that. And that is the risk of a Unique deck game such as this.

27 minutes ago, KingOfOdonata said:

Lol. The format was Archon and I knew he didn't have an answer like that, otherwise I would have held back. I think people forget in this game, not every deck has those answers nor is there a way to ensure that. And that is the risk of a Unique deck game such as this.

Right, my point exactly. Every deck has a deck that can defeat it. Of course there are good and bad decks, but if there is a lot of decks like that, I'm bringing my too much to protect deck or other answers.

The issue with functional errata on cards is that they can be difficult for everyone to know as they are not actually printed on the cards. It is understandable if a card was printed some way in error, like it is missing a word, but changing how it functions versus how it is printed without offering a way to correct it easily opens up precedents in the future.

Here are some other ways this could be done based on other games:

• Proxies
  • This could be something of the lines of having actual new versions printed that can be given out with kits for stores. Obviously they wouldn't have your Archon name or back, so you would need to play with opaque sleeves. Your decklist is proof that there would be one in your deck.
  • Another way to do proxies would be similar to how the old Star Wars CCG would update old cards by letting you print out the new cards and you would slide it over the old ones and use sleeves. The issue with this is that it would case 1-2 cards in your deck to be slightly thicker with the insert and would affect how your deck is cut.
• Chains
  • Using the chain system, they could default handicap any lists that have the cards and let them use their normal printed text. Your deck has LA in it, your minimum starting chains is 6 and gets PL 1. Your deck has a BnS, same thing. Your deck has both, enjoy 12 chains and PL 2. If these decks still are performing strongly, adjust their Chain Modifier. The issue with this is that it still has a memory issue where most people are not going to know right away that their deck has these chains, but they still play the cards as they read.
• Banning
  • Not a great idea, especially in a new game. It is the one that loses the most consumer confidence and is extra difficult when a whole deck is banned from one bad apple in the deck. While it is possible, this will always be the least likely in a game such as this.
• Powered Formats
  • This would be the one that drives the most sales of new products, but since they obviously choose not to reprint certain cards in the new set (outside of Legacy cards), this could be an option in another set or so. Let the players play the cards as they read, but if they want to do so then they will be up against people with similar decks most likely to play that specific format. As with some special cards that can't be Mavericks, some cards not appearing more than once in a deck, and most likely some cards not being allowed as Legacies, they can make sure these cards don't appear in newer sets.
    • Archon+: You can use all current sets available for deck selection
    • Archon: Only the most current set is available for deck selection

In the end, you only need to know the errata for tournament play anyways, so as with most games this really doesn't affect the majority of the people who play the game anyways. It is just something that is annoying (see "Biomatrix Backup) that can be changed whenever the need arises. For BnS, you can even technically interpret the card to work as the new functional errata, whereas LA now has invisible text.

The idea of putting chains on decks with powerful cards is interesting, but I think it would be hard to implement. Sometimes those cards just don't work. I have a deck with Library Access that is probably my absolute worst deck. The cards just aren't that great and they don't work together. It would be unfair to give that 6 chains and make it power level one. I could never get it that high at tournaments because it is a bad deck. Just because it has library access or bait and switch doesn't mean a deck is guaranteed to win.

Here is the deck I am referring to. Maybe it's good for other people, but it's my least favorite

https://www.keyforgegame.com/deck-details/44fb126d-292c-40b4-9ed0-e62e6f2d4447

5 minutes ago, Nellac said:

The idea of putting chains on decks with powerful cards is interesting, but I think it would be hard to implement. Sometimes those cards just don't work. I have a deck with Library Access that is probably my absolute worst deck. The cards just aren't that great and they don't work together. It would be unfair to give that 6 chains and make it power level one. I could never get it that high at tournaments because it is a bad deck. Just because it has library access or bait and switch doesn't mean a deck is guaranteed to win.

Here is the deck I am referring to. Maybe it's good for other people, but it's my least favorite

https://www.keyforgegame.com/deck-details/44fb126d-292c-40b4-9ed0-e62e6f2d4447

Yeah, pre-chaining, while interesting, will not work for the reason you mentioned. Aside from changing the rules (Which I think they should for Action cards), the only other way to fix cards is errata.

As for your deck, it does look weak. It doesn't make a lot of immediate aember, and it only has 4 aember control cards, 3 of them being weak.

12 hours ago, Whiz Canmaj said:

I like the idea of 'Rule of 6' applying to cards played on a turn.

14 hours ago, KingOfOdonata said:

I don't mean the rule of 6. I mean 6 cards "Played" total in a turn. I did a similar turn you mentioned on turn two once, which meant no time for an opponent to prepare for it. I lucked out with Full Moon+Niffle Ape (used with Speed Sigil to trade with a Witch of the Eye)+Dust Pixie+Dust Pixie+Nature's Call+Dust Pixie+Dixie Pixie+Nature's Call+Dust Pixie+Dust Pixie. 21 Aember turn 2 is just stupid, even if it's just luck. Is it cool feeling to execute it? Honestly? Not really. It takes no thought at all. Fortunately, AoA seems to be a bit more complex than the first set.

Do I like pulling off cool combos? Absolutely. Who doesn't. Do I like gaining an absurd advantage over my opponent with little thought or effort? Not really. Keyforge is an incredible game that I enjoy tremendously. I am the biggest proponent of the game in Louisville, KY. But does it have room for improvement? Most definitely. Keyforge could ultimately be one of the best games ever made if FFG takes care of it. It is doing things so differently than other than games. One set in and we see such quirky concepts as Legacy cards. Mavericks were already one of the most unique things about the game. But not 'time-shifted' cards? That is crazy. If people want a game to explore and discover, Keyforge is by the far the best game for it,.

So... basically hosing all epic quests decks then? Should we just set them on fire?

8 minutes ago, Simplegarak said:

So... basically hosing all epic quests decks then? Should we just set them on fire?

No, it just gets a functional errata to read "six sanctum" instead of seven.

1 minute ago, KandyKidZero said:

No, it just gets a functional errata to read "six sanctum" instead of seven.

Oh sweet, some of those will now be even MORE powerful then. 😄

EDIT: This does also bring up, will this be hosing heavy archiving decks as well. Since the idea with them is usually to build up to a perfect hand and then flood the board. It would also render Hysteria or Key Abduction (it returns ALL mars) even more powerful as once your opponent had all their creatures returned, they would then be limited to only playing 6 at a time - meaning it could take multiple turns before they get to draw a card again.

pre-chaining powerful cards? Wouldn't that just create MORE ERRATA which the suggestion was trying to avoid?

I've made my views on the errata clear in other threads, so let's just say this is a tool that needs to be used SPARINGLY and only as a last resort. I don't want to have a deck of 36 cards where each one does something other than what is printed.

At only 4 cards in two sets, we are a long ways off from that point, but I am hoping we do not see more for a long time.

13 hours ago, KingOfOdonata said:

Yeah, pre-chaining, while interesting, will not work for the reason you mentioned. Aside from changing the rules (Which I think they should for Action cards), the only other way to fix cards is errata.

As for your deck, it does look weak. It doesn't make a lot of immediate aember, and it only has 4 aember control cards, 3 of them being weak.

Not to mention being a negative play experience in and of itself.

If these decks are really so good, they’ll earn a higher power level and get self-excluded from events by virtue of their success. That’s the whole point of the system.

9 hours ago, TheSpitfired said:

pre-chaining powerful cards? Wouldn't that just create MORE ERRATA which the suggestion was trying to avoid?

I've made my views on the errata clear in other threads, so let's just say this is a tool that needs to be used SPARINGLY and only as a last resort. I don't want to have a deck of 36 cards where each one does something other than what is printed.

At only 4 cards in two sets, we are a long ways off from that point, but I am hoping we do not see more for a long time.

It wouldn't be errata in the fact that chains are tracked in the app and when you play in an event with chains it also tells you how many chains it has in the GEM reporter. This is easier to represent than invisible words.