Hello,

We are trying to figure out how to properly resolve duels that have become nested within another duel resolution. Here is the example that came up.

During a combat round I played, "I Can Swim." My opponent responded by playing, "Defend Your Honor." We set our dials and reveal them. After they are revealed, I play, "Contingency Plan" to increase the value of my bid by 1. In response, my opponent plays another "Defend Your Honor." We set the dials again and reveal them.

Now here's the question: After we resolve the question about whether or not Contingency Plan's action occurred, do we resolve whether or not I Can Swim occurred using what our dials were sent on for the first duel or the second? The way the dueling rules are written, it can be interpreted that we use the dial settings for the second duel to resolve both duels.

I believe that we need to look at framework and timing for this.

First, the targeting and cost or requirement check of ICS is done. Your dial was higher, you targeted a dishonored guy.

Now comes the effect, the discard. When this effect should initiate, your opponent plays DYH to cancel the effect (triggering condition of DYH)

So once the two nested duels are resolved, if you won both you prevented the cancel of ICS effect, so now the effect would resolve and the discard happens. There should be no need to check again the validity of ICS as the requirements and cost were already fulfiled, what was attempted to cancel was the effects.

Thanks for your response. Unfortunately, it doesn't answer my question. I'll try to rephrase it.

This concerns D4 in the duel rules.

D4, Reveal Honor Dials says players reveal their honor bids at the same time. The dials then remain as a reference point "until the next honor bid occurs."

In our case, the next honor bid occurred before this first duel ended. We got into a second duel and honor bids changed.

My opponent tried to argue that because of how the rules are written, the honor bids on the second duel are also applied to the first duel when it eventually resolves. The original duel didn't make it to the end of step D5.

21 hours ago, Goblin King said:

Hello,

We are trying to figure out how to properly resolve duels that have become nested within another duel resolution. Here is the example that came up.

During a combat round I played, "I Can Swim." My opponent responded by playing, "Defend Your Honor." We set our dials and reveal them. After they are revealed, I play, "Contingency Plan" to increase the value of my bid by 1. In response, my opponent plays another "Defend Your Honor." We set the dials again and reveal them.

Now here's the question: After we resolve the question about whether or not Contingency Plan's action occurred, do we resolve whether or not I Can Swim occurred using what our dials were sent on for the first duel or the second? The way the dueling rules are written, it can be interpreted that we use the dial settings for the second duel to resolve both duels.

Try this with more detail. Did we play this correctly?

During a combat round, I play "I Can Swim" targeting a dishonored character outside of the combat. In response, my opponent played "Defend Your Honor" on a character who was in the combat. I have only 2 honor. My opponent has 8 honor. I. bid 2. My opponent bids five. This would result in him winning the duel. I play "Contengency Plan" which would make the duel a tie.

In response, my opponent plays, Defend Your Honor again. My opponent bids 5 and I bid 1.

My opponent wins the 2nd duel. I go to 6 honor, he goes to 4 honor.

The first duel now resolves. I go to 9 honor. My opponent goes to 1 honor. Both I Can Swim and Contengency Plan never happened.

Did we resolve this chain of events correctly?

Ok. I thought you were asking if the bid dial value at the end would "invalidate" ICS if it was now lower than opponent.

That's a tricky one, I searched the rulings on this forum but didn't find. Maybe @Bayushi Shunsuke , the rules loremaster has insight?

As per the rules as written, the dial indeed should stay as is after a reveal, until next honor bid.

In D3 of the first duel, you both did the honor bid.

In D4 of the first duel, your opponent plays DYH to your contingency after the reveal.

It creates a 2nd, nested, duel that goes trough resolution, where you both did an honor bid at D3 that changed the dial.

When coming back to duel 1's D4 step, you dont go trough making a honor bid again, so Dial stays as it is until next honor bid.

So now at D5 of the first duel and all other following steps you should refer to the actual value of the dial, which is the one set during duel 2's honor bid.

Not very intuitive, but makes sense.

9 hours ago, Nitenman said:

Ok. I thought you were asking if the bid dial value at the end would "invalidate" ICS if it was now lower than opponent.

That's a tricky one, I searched the rulings on this forum but didn't find. Maybe @Bayushi Shunsuke , the rules loremaster has insight?

As per the rules as written, the dial indeed should stay as is after a reveal, until next honor bid.

In D3 of the first duel, you both did the honor bid.

In D4 of the first duel, your opponent plays DYH to your contingency after the reveal.

It creates a 2nd, nested, duel that goes trough resolution, where you both did an honor bid at D3 that changed the dial.

When coming back to duel 1's D4 step, you dont go trough making a honor bid again, so Dial stays as it is until next honor bid.

So now at D5 of the first duel and all other following steps you should refer to the actual value of the dial, which is the one set during duel 2's honor bid.

Not very intuitive, but makes sense.

So if what you say is correct, we use the dials from the second duel to resolve both duels. That would mean I won the game because my last bid was 1 and his was 5. I started with 2 honor and he started with 8. I gain 4 honor for each duel and he's at zero.

Nesting duels are dangerous.

6 hours ago, Goblin King said:

Nesting duels are dangerous.

That way lies madness, indeed.

Once the second/inner/nested duel has finished resolving, the original duel will pick up where it left off.
In this case, in the Reaction Window to reveal dials.
Which means that step has passed, and you use the current bid values.

I add my vote to 'Nesting duels is dangerous'.

Yeah, I got it right!

what a twisted mechanism.

So basically, by selecting his bid of 5 to your one in the second duel, your opponent did seppuku

funny thing is you said he argued that the bid should resolve with dial of duel 2. Did he realized it meant he had just suicided?

I got a bit confused... Maybe because my mother language is not English...

So, only the last dials matter for all the duels?

5 hours ago, Victarion13 said:

I got a bit confused... Maybe because my mother language is not English...

So, only the last dials matter for all the duels?

Due to when the interrupt windows for the other duels happen yes. When you reveal the bids from the first duel and Contingency plan is played you pause the resolution at bid dials were revealed and start a new duel cycle with new bids and resolve that duel.

Following the resolution of the second duel you will have set the dials to whatever values were chosen for the second duel but when resolution resumes for the first duel you are now returned to the reveal bids stage and you don't have an opportunity to change your dial from its last setting during the second duel

On 6/5/2019 at 1:57 PM, Nitenman said:

Yeah, I got it right!

what a twisted mechanism.

So basically, by selecting his bid of 5 to your one in the second duel, your opponent did seppuku

funny thing is you said he argued that the bid should resolve with dial of duel 2. Did he realized it meant he had just suicided?

He said he didn't actually set his dial the second time because we got too busy discussing the framework. This was a casual game we play at lunch and we pretty much ran out of time and quit. But if he set the dial to less than 5 the second time, he lost both duels and I just killed his 4 drop character with three fate on it with I Can Swim.

It was pretty much a damned if you do, damned if you don't situation.

Anyhow, we have three local tournaments this month. I'm sure everyone will find this discussion interesting.

More proof that if you're not "bully dueling" you're doing it wrong- bid one for the win.