Would this be resolved in player order? Therefore being the second player would have the advantage?

It's the same effect as Torkil Mux vs Roark Garnet. Roark (and HP) don't change the ship's printed Init value, it changed at what Init they engage in. So Torkil Mux doesn't work against HP and Roark's boosted ship.

Torkil works against Swarm Tactics though, and that's based on player order, because Swarm Tactics actually changes the ship's Init for the round.

15 minutes ago, MegaSilver said:

It's the same effect as Torkil Mux vs Roark Garnet. Roark (and HP) don't change the ship's printed Init value, it changed at what Init they engage in. So Torkil Mux doesn't work against HP and Roark's boosted ship.

Torkil works against Swarm Tactics though, and that's based on player order, because Swarm Tactics actually changes the ship's Init for the round.

Torkil doesn't change the init value either.

At the start of the Engagement Phase, you may choose 1 ship in your firing arc. If you do, that ship engages at initiative 0 instead of its normal initiative value this round.

Player order applies and Mux wants to be second player. From ability queue

"If both players have abilities that triggered from the same event, the abilities are added to the ability queue in player order."

5 hours ago, Hiemfire said:

Torkil doesn't change the init value either.

At the start of the Engagement Phase, you may choose 1 ship in your firing arc. If you do, that ship engages at initiative 0 instead of its normal initiative  value this round.

Player order applies and Mux wants to be second player. From ability queue

"If both players have abilities that triggered from the same event, the abilities are added to the ability queue in player order."

I'll do you one better.. or rather, add support to this..

Pg 12- Initiative

Quote

If several abilities alter the initiative of a ship, only the most recent ability is applied.

So yes. Torkil wants to trigger his ability last, and it will override HP and Roark.

6 hours ago, MegaSilver said:

So Torkil Mux doesn't work against HP and Roark's boosted ship.

This makes no sense. Torkil and Roark are direct counters to each other. Of course their ability's can override each others. It just depends on who is the 2nd player.

For reference!

You guys are right, I completely missed the fact that Torkil is worded the same way.

Torkil is actually worded slightly better than Roark.

Torkil "that ship engages.." , "normal initiative" , "this round"

Roark "it engages" , "standard initiative" , "this phase"

Both say the same thing, but i think Torkil is more inline with proper mechanical phrasing for the game then Roark is.

Ugh I hadn't noticed that they have the same effect with different wording.

That's just so ffg

Likely due to different people writing up the ability's.

But they really should have a rules/mechanics proof reader vet all of these to make sure they read correctly mechanically. Perhaps two so multiple sets of eyes check it.

Another question regarding most of the HWK-290 pilots. When it says”in your firing arc”, is that 0-3 or 1-3? The question came up during a game.

35 minutes ago, DarthDarxide said:

Another question regarding most of the HWK-290 pilots. When it says”in your firing arc”, is that 0-3 or 1-3? The question came up during a game.

0-3

6 hours ago, DarthDarxide said:

Another question regarding most of the HWK-290 pilots. When it says”in your firing arc”, is that 0-3 or 1-3? The question came up during a game.

That's R0-3, but that doesn't include itself (unlike a lot of things that work for R0) as no ship can be in its own arc.

Thanks for the clarifications 🍻

So this came up again recently in a few groups I follow and it was interpreted as both abilities applying. Essentially, the ship would engage at both I7 and I0, but after engaging at I7 it cannot engage a second time and thus does not end up engaging at I0. This would mean that HP and Roark would always override Torkil regardless of player order. It's an interesting interpretation that holds some merit since neither is replacing the initiative or (as written) replacing the other's engagement initiative.

1 hour ago, joeshmoe554 said:

So this came up again recently in a few groups I follow and it was interpreted as both abilities applying. Essentially, the ship would engage at both I7 and I0, but after engaging at I7 it cannot engage a second time and thus does not end up engaging at I0. This would mean that HP and Roark would always override Torkil regardless of player order. It's an interesting interpretation that holds some merit since neither is replacing the initiative or (as written) replacing the other's engagement initiative.

Both HP and Torkil say the one affected by the ability engages at overwriting any previous ability that does not have a "cannot" prohibiting the change. First player HP says "I'm going to engage at I7." then Second player Torkil says"Nah, you're engaging at I0."

7 hours ago, joeshmoe554 said:

It's an interesting interpretation that holds some merit since neither is replacing the initiative

Except it doesn't, because it is.

RR pg 2

Quote

Some abilities are substitutive in nature—they replace how an effect would normally resolve. These abilities use the words “would” and “ instead .”

RR Page 13

Quote

If several abilities alter the initiative of a ship, only the most recent ability is applied.

Except that neither Torkil nor Roark alter the initiative of the ship in question... merely the initiative they engage at.

Right. This is a key point: the ship is being instructed to engage outside of its normal engagement window. The initiative value isn't being altered or replaced or treated differently, but the ability instead replaces standard engagement protocol with an alternate effect.

These abilities are replacement effects, which means that the timing of their resolution is thrown into question, as they don't resolve using the queue like other abilities. Instead, the HP/Roark effects would actually resolve during the engagement phase at initiative 7 (because they must), while Torkil would resolve at the ship's initiative score (because that is the effect it is replacing). So by that logic, player order would never come into play to determine when the effects resolve; HP/Roark would always come first. The ship would engage at initiative 7, thus rendering Torkil moot because that ship cannot engage again.

52 minutes ago, Maui. said:

Right. This is a key point: the ship is being instructed to engage outside of its normal engagement window. The initiative value isn't being altered or replaced or treated differently, but the ability instead replaces standard engagement protocol with an alternate effect.

These abilities are replacement effects, which means that the timing of their resolution is thrown into question, as they don't resolve using the queue like other abilities. Instead, the HP/Roark effects would actually resolve during the engagement phase at initiative 7 (because they must), while Torkil would resolve at the ship's initiative score (because that is the effect it is replacing). So by that logic, player order would never come into play to determine when the effects resolve; HP/Roark would always come first. The ship would engage at initiative 7, thus rendering Torkil moot because that ship cannot engage again.

Torkil only differs from Roark and HP in target and at which Init the target engages at

17 minutes ago, Hiemfire said:

Torkil only differs from Roark and HP in target and at which Init the target engages at

Yes, and they are alike in that they all include a replacement effect (i.e. the ship engages at X instead of its standard initiative). All three abilities are triggered at the start of engagement, but their replacement effects do not use the ability queue and instead resolve later in the phase: the Roark and HP replacement effects resolve at i7, which is before the Torkil effect has a chance to resolve.

1 hour ago, Maui. said:

Yes, and they are alike in that they all include a replacement effect (i.e. the ship engages at X instead of its standard initiative). All three abilities are triggered at the start of engagement, but their replacement effects do not use the ability queue and instead resolve later in the phase: the Roark and HP replacement effects resolve at i7, which is before the Torkil effect has a chance to resolve.

They all resolve at the start of the Engagment phase via the ability que.

2 hours ago, Hiemfire said:

They all resolve at the start of the Engagment phase via the ability que.

Replacement effects do not use the ability queue:

Quote

Replacement effects are not added to the end of the ability queue as they are resolved at the timing of the effect they are replacing.

page 2, "Replacement Effects"

1 hour ago, Maui. said:

Replacement effects do not use the ability queue:

page 2, "Replacement Effects"

Then what is the point of all 3 saying "At the start of the Engagement Phase, you may" if not to set up a queue for them to be applied and what ever costs required to be paid. If they aren't put into the queue the abilities as written do not function.

Edit: Honestly I think you're mixing up how these are applied with how, lets say, Jyn Erso crew is applied.

The abilities do resolve at the start of the engagement phase. HP/Roark put into effect "engage at i7 instead of your initiative." Torkil puts into effect "engage at i0 instead of your initiative." Both replacement effects are now active targeting the same ship, but because they both replace the same effect only one can be resolved. HP/Roark's replacement effect resolves first (at initiative 7) which prevents Torkil's replacement effect from resolving.

I see one of three possibilities here, and each of them seems to have a reasonable argument behind it, to me...

1. First Player wins. Once one player has placed a replacement effect upon one aspect of a ship, no further replacement effects can be applied. They will engage at whatever value the first player assigned (0 or 7), without the second player having the option to change that ship any further.
2. Second Player wins. Since Torkil and Roark both have the same timing, after the first player institutes their effect, the second player can "overwrite" that effect with their own.
3. Highest Initiative effect wins. This one is a little weird, but... the ship is now instructed to engage at 7 instead of their base initiative, and 0 instead of their base initiative. When you reach the Initiative 7 bracket, thanks to Roark or HP, you engage and attack. Then, when you later reach Initiative 0, you try to engage again thanks to Torkil, but fail (because you only engage once per round).

Which do I think is correct? I have no freaking idea. I think the "second player overwrites the first player's change" makes the most common sense given the rest of the game's flow , while "highest initiative wins out" feels like the proper "strict reading of the rules" interpretation.