While this fix would probably be fine, I disagree that VTG with the current ruling is nescessarily broken. Yions doens't do anything that's not a core part if the game: it points at things, shoots, and takes damage in return. That means it can be costed correctly. It's probably a little bit too cheap right now, but that doesn't mean the mechanic can't be priced correctly.

I understand why you might want a cheap gunner for turrets without front arcs, but all upgrades has to be costed according to it's most effecient use. Simple variable costs are nice, but Shield Upgrade is still not worth it on Academy Pilots. We have to accept that some uses of all upgrades will be bad. I like there to be a reason for Y-wings, etc to have their turrets in the front, but if we want to keep that, we should hope for a new gunner for "true turrets" instead of making it this one.

OK, so here's the question: would you rather have:

{1} the current double-tap VTG after, say, an increase back up to 8 points

or

{2} a VTG that only costs 3 points, but can't fire double-front.

For myself, I honestly don't know, at least not in the long run. I think it'd be cool to live in the world of {2} for a bit, see how it goes.

I'd kind of like two different versions. Perhaps keep the double tap but double or triple the cost for ships with a v and a turret, and keep it low for ships with only a bow tie.

On 5/31/2019 at 10:44 AM, Octarine-08 said:

This whole thing wasn't a surprise at all.

It was basically the return of the old BTL-A4 Y wing title made famous by the Stresshog.

The Stresshog combo was the only reason the doubletap Y saw competitive play in 1st Edition. As a damage-dealing tool, it was tried and found inferior even with TLT having more damage potential than any 2e add-on turret currently has.

I'm fine with the way it currently works. It's a trade-off - normally a turret gives you a wider arc and makes you harder to arc-dodge, with VTG you're paying some points and losing that wide arc to have more concentrated firepower. It fits right in with the idea that arcs matter and that lining up your shots well should be rewarded.

That said, the point cost could probably go up a little, since it's clearly the best gunner on a lot of ships at the moment. I think the cost on some other gunners could probably come down as well without breaking anything, which would give it more competition for the slot.

14 hours ago, Ysenhal said:

I'm fine with the way it currently works. It's a trade-off - normally a turret gives you a wider arc and makes you harder to arc-dodge, with VTG you're paying some points and losing that wide arc to have more concentrated firepower. It fits right in with the idea that arcs matter and that lining up your shots well should be rewarded.

That said, the point cost could probably go up a little, since it's clearly the best gunner on a lot of ships at the moment. I think the cost on some other gunners could probably come down as well without breaking anything, which would give it more competition for the slot.

This I agree with the most.

On ‎5‎/‎31‎/‎2019 at 12:27 PM, feltipern1 said:

There are two responses to this. The way I play VTG is not impacted substantially, since I usually use it on a Resistance Gunboat Bomber and perhaps on the occasional YT-1300 build. The way it's played against me would be substantially different, but I find that there are ways around the 5Yion build (which is the only one I've seen VTG abuse potential in) that mitigate the effect.

I think dred loks are an issue with VTG - but I am biased because they kicked the crap out of me.

https://raithos.github.io/?f=Scum and Villainy&d=v6!s=200!146:137,,90,,,,:;146:137,,90,,,,:;146:137,,90,,,,:;86:,137,,,,,,:&sn=Unnamed Squadron&obs=

On 6/3/2019 at 4:07 AM, Ysenhal said:

I'm fine with the way it currently works. It's a trade-off - normally a turret gives you a wider arc and makes you harder to arc-dodge, with VTG you're paying some points and losing that wide arc to have more concentrated firepower. It fits right in with the idea that arcs matter and that lining up your shots well should be rewarded.

That said, the point cost could probably go up a little, since it's clearly the best gunner on a lot of ships at the moment. I think the cost on some other gunners could probably come down as well without breaking anything, which would give it more competition for the slot.

Going to 7 say also makes the 5xY lose a double tap and that seems fair.

Honestly just hoping Ezra gunner comes down to like 10 from its current insanity

4 minutes ago, FriendofYoda said:

Going to 7 say also makes the 5xY lose a double tap and that seems fair.

Honestly just hoping Ezra gunner comes down to like 10 from its current insanity

Ezra would be so good on Lando, if he was a reasonable price (I kinda think 12-ish). Lando's ability easily grants him extra Lock actions, plus since he's almost always on blue moves with Nien Nunb, he'll be stressed if he boosts. At Init 5, he seems like the perfect guy to be able to boost into a position where he can have double-shots, and pick up a stress for Ezra's reroll on the bonus attack. On the flip side, having a Force charge makes it a lot easier for Lando to operate on a single action, which means it'll be easier for him to toss the freebie from his ability to someone else.

I only played one game with it, but I had an AdvS Corran/Lando list with Ezra, and I was able to trigger double range 1 shots (the bonus attack still missed ).

22 minutes ago, theBitterFig said:

Ezra would be so good on Lando, if he was a reasonable price (I kinda think 12-ish). Lando's ability easily grants him extra Lock actions, plus since he's almost always on blue moves with Nien Nunb, he'll be stressed if he boosts. At Init 5, he seems like the perfect guy to be able to boost into a position where he can have double-shots, and pick up a stress for Ezra's reroll on the bonus attack. On the flip side, having a Force charge makes it a lot easier for Lando to operate on a single action, which means it'll be easier for him to toss the freebie from his ability to someone else.

I only played one game with it, but I had an AdvS Corran/Lando list with Ezra, and I was able to trigger double range 1 shots (the bonus attack still missed ).

I'm also just excited to get a cheap force user on Chewie so he can double mod his shots.

1 hour ago, FriendofYoda said:

Honestly just hoping Ezra gunner comes down to like 10 from its current insanity

Yeah, 10-12 is reasonable IMO, as is additional benefit (above VTG) is so marginal.

On the other hand, I keep finding myself shelling out for Luke on FlyCasual whenever I use Dash, so maybe there's something to say for the force power? We mainly need more viable gunner options. Skilled Bombardier, Veteran Tail Gunner, and Veteran Turret gunner are so chassis-dependent, and the rest are absurdly expensive.