So in another thread, a comment was made that just reminded me of something I've found very puzzling when it comes to gaming and how people try and translate it from franchise to table. From what I've seen, a lot of people seem very puzzled, and stumped, when it comes to "playing that out", regarding some aspect of a franchise, and when it comes to Star Wars, that usually is in regards to the Force. And I don't really understand why. I mean, everyone's first experience with the franchise, is from the narrative standpoint, usually the films, though some might come to it from one of the cartoon shows first. So, everyone has seen, first hand, narrative examples of how to do a Force training session. It's one of the most popular, and frequently used story elements. Protagonist learns they have the Force, has no idea, or very little conscious idea, what they are doing. Mentor character talks to them a bit, illustrating some key concepts, usually about how to tap into the Force in general, and then we cut to the student trying that stuff out. It's pretty standard stuff, pretty much every fantasy story with actual magic follows the same formula, or mystic martial arts films as well.

So I'm always puzzled when I see thread after thread of "I don't know how to play this out! Help!"

What is the issue for most people? Is it just the fact that so many tabletop gamers are so analytical in nature, that they just are incapable of visualizing the narrative structure of something? Something they were first introduced to (and likely became fascinated by) in a narrative way? I just, there seems to be some cognitive disconnect to me when I see this, so I don't know what the issue is for people.

I think some issues is they are looking for a way to 'play it' rather than just narrate or have it be a big exposition dump. Most of the training session stuff has either been in montage form, very short blerps for or exposition dumps, rather than actual play. The best version of a full on "play" for force training is actually Yoda and Luke on Dagobah, where you can definitely see athletics rolls, discipline rolls, perception rolls and cool rolls all coming into the training of Luke. Even fear checks and clear strain being taken from difficult rolls or tasks. In episode 4 it was largely just exposition dump as to what the force was. In episode 6 there was no training really nor in 7. In episode 8 the training was again largely expositing rather than a clear example of play. Episode 1, 2 and 3 the training is going on the background of the scenes with yoda and younglings, the training anakin and obi-wan go through in episode 1 and 2, is more about when to act and what to do rather than how to do it. Even in games like KoToR they just gloss over the initial training of Revan in montage form, no actual gameplay. I think that is the hang up people are having is how do you "play it" rather then just exposit or narrate the training or montage it. As only episode 5 has done so really.

2 minutes ago, tunewalker said:

I think some issues is they are looking for a way to 'play it' rather than just narrate or have it be a big exposition dump. Most of the training session stuff has either been in montage form, very short blerps for or exposition dumps, rather than actual play. The best version of a full on "play" for force training is actually Yoda and Luke on Dagobah, where you can definitely see athletics rolls, discipline rolls, perception rolls and cool rolls all coming into the training of Luke. Even fear checks and clear strain being taken from difficult rolls or tasks. In episode 4 it was largely just exposition dump as to what the force was. In episode 6 there was no training really nor in 7. In episode 8 the training was again largely expositing rather than a clear example of play. Episode 1, 2 and 3 the training is going on the background of the scenes with yoda and younglings, the training anakin and obi-wan go through in episode 1 and 2, is more about when to act and what to do rather than how to do it. Even in games like KoToR they just gloss over the initial training of Revan in montage form, no actual gameplay. I think that is the hang up people are having is how do you "play it" rather then just exposit or narrate the training or montage it. As only episode 5 has done so really.

Except the cartoons have expanded on training on multiple episodes, just from the ones that I've personally watched, and I stopped watching most of those shows pretty early on. But even if episode 5 is the only one that actually fleshes out the training (I disagree there, but it doesn't matter too much), then why would it still be an issue? I mean that right there is a great example of how to play out training. Just change the flavor based on location, and powers in particular.

I guess I'm just puzzled about why it's apparently fine to visualize another kind of training (non-mystical), but for some reason, when it's the Force, that ability just seems to fall apart? None of the people playing a Star Wars roleplaying game are unfamiliar with the Force I'd wager. They love the franchise, it's why they are playing an RPG of it. Sure some people might be totally new to Star Wars, but let's be honest, that's a small fraction of the current human population these days.

I mean, if it makes sense to do physical things to train physical skills/talents, why is it suddenly a mystery on how to train Move? Move stuff around. We all have a very good understanding of how that would work. The Force connects all things. The illusion that you and the rock are separate is just that, an illusion. Feel the rock, reach out to it, try and lift it. Sense? The Force connects all things, the illusion that you and that person over there are separate is just that, an illusion. Reach out, try and Sense their life force in the flow of the Force, feel the ebb and flow of their heartbeat, etc etc. I mean, this shouldn't be unfamiliar territory for fans of mystic/fantasy stories. It's the same boiler plate terminology that is used in mystic kung fu to allow the fighter to shoot a fireball from his hands. The apprentice mage to learn how to toss lightning bolts, etc.

And let's be real here, for all practical purposes, the Force is fundamentally magic, and it operates as such when you compare it to most of the more common fantasy settings out there.

So yeah, I just don't see why this one flavor of magic seems to give people such a problem when trying to narrate it out. It's not that different from anything else, because it was derived from other, more common aspects of our world. From snippets of real world mysticism, to classic depictions of magic users in storytelling.

16 minutes ago, KungFuFerret said:

Except the cartoons have expanded on training on multiple episodes, just from the ones  that I've personally watched, and I stopped watching most of those shows pretty early on. But even if episode 5 is the only one that actually fleshes out the training (I disagree there, but it doesn't matter too much), then why would it still be an issue? I mean that right there is a great example of how to play out training. Just change the flavor based on location, and powers in particular.

I guess I'm just puzzled about why it's apparently fine to visualize another kind of training (non-mystical), but for some reason, when it's the Force, that ability just seems to fall apart? None of the people playing a Star Wars roleplaying game are unfamiliar with the Force I'd wager. They love the franchise, it's why they are playing an RPG of it. Sure some people might be totally new to Star Wars, but let's be honest, that's a small fraction of the current human population these days.

I mean, if it makes sense to do physical things to train physical skills/talents, why is it suddenly a mystery on how to train Move? Move stuff around. We all have a very good understanding of how that would work. The Force connects all things. The illusion that you and the rock are separate is just that, an illusion. Feel the rock, reach out to it, try and lift it. Sense? The Force connects all things, the illusion that you and that person over there are separate is just that, an illusion. Reach out, try and Sense their life force in the flow of the Force, feel the ebb and flow of their heartbeat, etc etc. I mean, this shouldn't be unfamiliar territory for fans of mystic/fantasy stories. It's the same boiler plate terminology that is used in mystic kung fu to allow the fighter to shoot a fireball from his hands. The apprentice mage to learn how to toss lightning bolts, etc.

And let's be real here, for all practical purposes, the Force is fundamentally magic, and it operates as such when you compare it to most of the more common fantasy settings out there.

So yeah, I just don't see why this one flavor of magic seems to give people such a problem when trying to narrate it out. It's not that different from anything else, because it was derived from other, more common aspects of our world. From snippets of real world mysticism, to classic depictions of magic users in storytelling.

To be fair I think it is visualizing training of any kind, not just force. In most training scenes of other kinds it is also montage form. And I was specifically talking about movies not the novels or the shows. Most of the shows training that I remember end up being a start of episode thing and then through out the episode the person doubts themselves and then goes through things their normal way till the end when their normal stuff wont save them and thenthey finally do the thing they failed to do at the start in a way that saves the day. In episode IV the remote training is largely just for the purpose of expositing some of the ways the force works for the audience that has never seen it. V is full on training and VI there is no training. There is vague pep talks in episode I but no actual training, episode II there is guidance on what you should do as a jedi but no actual training and in III there is more guidance rather than actual training. Episode VII Rey's doesnt really have force training she sees people do it and has the stories and others talking about the force that cant actually feel it, and in episode 8 it is largely expository again, re-establishing what the force is what it can do. In games it has almost always been handled in cut-scene and montage which is how most people think of handling it here. When training to do a gun you go through a montage of someone shooting a gun, but that does not feel like actual play to me. Not saying you cant do it, nor that we do not have examples of it. I do plenty like the way I would handle the probe scene looks like the PC Luke picked up force sense for 5 xp (mentor bonus) and to simply establish the character had it on the way to their destination you had them do a perception check vs the training remote to block it then had the line put the blast shield on them and had them roll the force die for sense to establish he had it. First time fail because got 1 dark and didnt want to spend dark side second time succeed because 2 light. "See you can do it' and play continues onto other things since power has been established.

2 hours ago, KungFuFerret said:

So in another thread, a comment was made that just reminded me of something I've found very puzzling when it comes to gaming and how people try and translate it from franchise to table. From what I've seen, a lot of people seem very puzzled, and stumped, when it comes to "playing that out", regarding some aspect of a franchise, and when it comes to Star Wars, that usually is in regards to the Force. And I don't really understand why. I mean, everyone's first experience with the franchise, is from the narrative standpoint, usually the films, though some might come to it from one of the cartoon shows first. So, everyone has seen, first hand, narrative examples of how to do a Force training session. It's one of the most popular, and frequently used story elements. Protagonist learns they have the Force, has no idea, or very little conscious idea, what they are doing. Mentor character talks to them a bit, illustrating some key concepts, usually about how to tap into the Force in general, and then we cut to the student trying that stuff out. It's pretty standard stuff, pretty much every fantasy story with actual magic follows the same formula, or mystic martial arts films as well.

So I'm always puzzled when I see thread after thread of "I don't know how to play this out! Help!"

What is the issue for most people? Is it just the fact that so many tabletop gamers are so analytical in nature, that they just are incapable of visualizing the narrative structure of something? Something they were first introduced to (and likely became fascinated by) in a narrative way? I just, there seems to be some cognitive disconnect to me when I see this, so I don't know what the issue is for people.

This regards an exchange we had (I know you're making it more generalized here but I'll respond specifically) but I wasn't confused at how it could possibly done at the table (in fact my question had several "you mean X?" statements to it that ended up being what you answered) it was more how do you make that more interesting and engaging than just a single check. Nexus of Power and Disciples of Harmony have lots of stuff (basically creating challenges and entire encounters out of mentoring/training sessions that involve a series of skill checks and decisions).

The context of this conversation was how much (and how best to include) training in a game and a side-bar of that with the assumption that a player was interested in playing it up more and the training playing a bigger role in character/story development. Assuming that they may very well be interested in single-check events peppered throughout a session or campaign leading them along.

46 minutes ago, tunewalker said:

I think some issues is they are looking for a way to 'play it' rather than just narrate or have it be a big exposition dump. Most of the training session stuff has either been in montage form, very short blerps for or exposition dumps, rather than actual play. The best version of a full on "play" for force training is actually Yoda and Luke on Dagobah, where you can definitely see athletics rolls, discipline rolls, perception rolls and cool rolls all coming into the training of Luke. Even fear checks and clear strain being taken from difficult rolls or tasks. In episode 4 it was largely just exposition dump as to what the force was. In episode 6 there was no training really nor in 7. In episode 8 the training was again largely expositing rather than a clear example of play. Episode 1, 2 and 3 the training is going on the background of the scenes with yoda and younglings, the training anakin and obi-wan go through in episode 1 and 2, is more about when to act and what to do rather than how to do it. Even in games like KoToR they just gloss over the initial training of Revan in montage form, no actual gameplay. I think that is the hang up people are having is how do you "play it" rather then just exposit or narrate the training or montage it. As only episode 5 has done so really.

Good point.

I think it comes down to that form because to make a game engaging and interesting (especially sustaining it) the player has to be making choices (typically leading to skill checks). Choices have to have an effect on the game and success/failure has to have some consequence. I think that's why training gets boiled down to exposition - where are the choices?

And even just having a series of skill checks for things being trained (athletics, discipline, resilience, coordination, Force Power check, etc) isn't as interesting if they're not really associated with choices. Seems like the key to making training engaging is that - like all other encounters - they involve some dilemma or challenge to work around or through. Even the training scene in V doesn't really do this - look is making all sorts of skill checks but he's not really making choices except for the cave (same with Rey in VIII). Although an excellent deleted scene from VIII does offer an interesting training scene with a choice (it has the "lost" lesson where Luke teaches Rey about the Jedi perspective on balance and she runs off to "save" the village of Caretakers). Though this scene didn't necessarily involve any skill checks the character making the choice to do something (or not) given a moral dilemma makes for a powerful training encounter - so having choices is more engaging than just skill checks (not that you have to pick one or the other).

I think the best means of conducting training is to make it character driven. Instead of exposition, let it be revelatory if you can. Have it reveal the character of the trainer or trainee in some fashion, in addition to the lesson or power being taught so that it's not simply going through the motions. E.g. In the game I run for my wife, her first training with the Jedi who discovered her didn't involve combat, but showed her his philosophy: He fights dirty, implying he perhaps wasn't always a Jedi. Another later session, she realized she hates violence, but is coming to understand that sometimes you have to fight.

For me, everything should be in service of the story you are trying to tell.

Just now, Jedi Ronin said:

This regards an exchange we had (I know you're making it more generalized here but I'll respond specifically) but I wasn't confused at how it could possibly done at the table (in fact my question had several "you mean X?" statements to it that ended up being what you answered) it was more how do you make that more interesting and engaging than just a single check. Nexus of Power and Disciples of Harmony have lots of stuff (basically creating challenges and entire encounters out of mentoring/training sessions that involve a series of skill checks and decisions).

The context of this conversation was how much (and how best to include) training in a game and a side-bar of that with the assumption that a player was interested in playing it up more and the training playing a bigger role in character/story development. Assuming that they may very well be interested in single-check events peppered throughout a session or campaign leading them along.

Yeah it was your question that sparked the thread, but it's mostly that you are the most recent example of the phenomenon I'm referring to. Your comment was mostly a tangential thing, not a direct example. But as far as like literal examples of the training that are interesting, I'm still equally puzzled at why this is so difficult for some GMs. I dunno, maybe it's just the people most likely to GM have difficulty thinking up creative/fun ways to utilize magic powers in a scenario designed to test those powers? *shrugs* I mean, in the end, it's always going to come down to rolling a die and seeing if it works, but it's the setting and context that make it interesting. Maybe using Move to lift a sil 1 rock isn't that interesting, but what if you have them try the same thing, with that speeder turbine they are working on in the body shop? Or they are a musician, and they try and utilize Move to strike a drum at a distance, while also playing another instrument. Trying to play dodge ball with a fellow padawan, but you can only use Move to manipulate the ball. Have an obstacle course where it takes 2 people to complete it, 1 person using Enhance to make the long jumps from platform to platform, but have it where the platforms only are viable, if their ally uses Move to pull them out from the walls they are ensconced in.

Play hide and seek, with everyone blindfolded, and only able to use Sense to find each other. Or take them into a crowd of people, and have them try and find one person amidst the crowd of beings. The one person familiar to them, but buried in the susurrus of lifeforms around them.

7 minutes ago, KungFuFerret said:

Yeah it was your question that sparked the thread, but it's mostly that you are the most recent example of the phenomenon I'm referring to. Your comment was mostly a tangential thing, not a direct example. But as far as like literal examples of the training that are interesting, I'm still equally puzzled at why this is so difficult for some GMs. I dunno, maybe it's just the people most likely to GM have difficulty thinking up creative/fun ways to utilize magic powers in a scenario designed to test those powers? *shrugs* I mean, in the end, it's always going to come down to rolling a die and seeing if it works, but it's the setting and context that make it interesting. Maybe using Move to lift a sil 1 rock isn't that interesting, but what if you have them try the same thing, with that speeder turbine they are working on in the body shop? Or they are a musician, and they try and utilize Move to strike a drum at a distance, while also playing another instrument. Trying to play dodge ball with a fellow padawan, but you can only use Move to manipulate the ball. Have an obstacle course where it takes 2 people to complete it, 1 person using Enhance to make the long jumps from platform to platform, but have it where the platforms only are viable, if their ally uses Move to pull them out from the walls they are ensconced in.

Play hide and seek, with everyone blindfolded, and only able to use Sense to find each other. Or take them into a crowd of people, and have them try and find one person amidst the crowd of beings. The one person familiar to them, but buried in the susurrus of lifeforms around them.

Those are some really good ideas - involving choices and skill checks. That kind of stuff didn't really occur to me. Why not? I guess the lazy answer is that this isn't what we see in the movies. Though now that you mentioned it there is some cadet training in Star Wars Rebels that does stuff like this - though the narrative device isn't "training" but Ezra infiltrating and spying but it's still a great example. I also haven't give it a lot of thought. It's something I might make use of in my current game.

One area i think i can see people struggle with is how to make training interesting if you only have a couple force users...as you end up focusing on a player or 2. can you make it engaging for all? etc.

5 minutes ago, Daeglan said:

One area i think i can see people struggle with is how to make training interesting if you only have a couple force users...as you end up focusing on a player or 2. can you make it engaging for all? etc.

Yeah but that's not really a problem unique to training sessions. Any time the story narrows down to 1-2 players, and focuses on a more personal development for a session, the rest of the table is set to the sidelines. In a movie/tv show, this isn't a problem, those characters are just off screen doing something else. For players, it means they are checking their phones, chatting, munching on snacks, and trying to stay busy. And yes, that is definitely an ongoing problem.

I have no answer to that, beyond what other GMs have said for decades, on how to manage a table of people to keep everyone engaged.

One idea I had personally, would be to recruit the non-focused players into running some of your NPCs for the scene, assuming you have some. Give them a script concept for the NPC. "He acts like Jack from Will and Grace" or "She's blunt but awkward, like Anya from Buffy the Vampire Slayer." Give them a basic idea of what the NPC's job is in the scene, and let them react when it's appropriate, based on the situation. This way, they are still engaged, rolling dice, and participating, but it doesn't require you to shoehorn in their PC's if it doesn't actually fit the situation.

10 minutes ago, KungFuFerret said:

Yeah but that's not really a problem unique to training sessions. Any time the story narrows down to 1-2 players, and focuses on a more personal development for a session, the rest of the table is set to the sidelines. In a movie/tv show, this isn't a problem, those characters are just off screen doing something else. For players, it means they are checking their phones, chatting, munching on snacks, and trying to stay busy. And yes, that is definitely an ongoing problem.

I have no answer to that, beyond what other GMs have said for decades, on how to manage a table of people to keep everyone engaged.

One idea I had personally, would be to recruit the non-focused players into running some of your NPCs for the scene, assuming you have some. Give them a script concept for the NPC. "He acts like Jack from Will and Grace" or "She's blunt but awkward, like Anya from Buffy the Vampire Slayer." Give them a basic idea of what the NPC's job is in the scene, and let them react when it's appropriate, based on the situation. This way, they are still engaged, rolling dice, and participating, but it doesn't require you to shoehorn in their PC's if it doesn't actually fit the situation.

I agree. I think the trick is to do a roving spotlight. If in this session Bob and Melissa get a force training session. involve the other players if you can. But next session George and Sara should get the spotlight. If you need a chart to keep track make one. And Communicate with your players. What do they want. DO they want to gloss over training and focus on the adventures? Give them what they want. Probably the hardest part is communicating and setting expectations up front.

8 minutes ago, Daeglan said:

I agree. I think the trick is to do a roving spotlight. If in this session Bob and Melissa get a force training session. involve the other players if you can. But next session George and Sara should get the spotlight. If you need a chart to keep track make one. And Communicate with your players. What do they want. DO they want to gloss over training and focus on the adventures? Give them what they want. Probably the hardest part is communicating and setting expectations up front.

Well yeah, I usually assume that communication has been had between the various parties, on what they do/don't want to do. I'm not going to have them do a training session if they are just absolutely against it. I've yet to meet that player though, because usually the thing being trained, is a significant part of their concept, so fleshing it out is usually a fun session for them. But yeah, definitely rotate the focus if you have a large table, or draft the others into your cast of characters to help out.

KFF just want to say great thread. This is interesting and informative stuff.

On 5/31/2019 at 12:50 AM, Archlyte said:

KFF just want to say great thread. This is interesting and informative stuff.

Glad you like it. Hopefully it will help people, because I've learned over the years that if there is one aspect of gaming that I find very easy, it's the fluffy, narrative stuff. I can come up with a pretty in-depth background in a few minutes, work it into the skills of the PC, and flesh out family/friends with little to no effort. I can improvise an NPC and conversation when the players turn left instead of right without much issue, and I'm comfortable actually acting out a character with unusual behavior ticks. Number crunching is what I usually despise, and avoid like the plague. And most people on these forums seem to have the opposite issue, so I'm always curious what the problems is. My 2 friends that I game with, have that problem. They just lock up mentally when it comes to things like the narrative, story part of a game.

3 hours ago, KungFuFerret said:

Glad you like it. Hopefully it will help people, because I've learned over the years that if there is one aspect of gaming that I find very easy, it's the fluffy, narrative stuff. I can come up with a pretty in-depth background in a few minutes, work it into the skills of the PC, and flesh out family/friends with little to no effort. I can improvise an NPC and conversation when the players turn left instead of right without much issue, and I'm comfortable actually acting out a character with unusual behavior ticks. Number crunching is what I usually despise, and avoid like the plague. And most people on these forums seem to have the opposite issue, so I'm always curious what the problems is. My 2 friends that I game with, have that problem. They just lock up mentally when it comes to things like the narrative, story part of a game.

Number crunching is for droids. lol. Yeah I agree about the mechanical play approach being the clear majority, even in a game with a big Narrative bent.

So when I've run and have had to work with my Force sensitive PC's I typically have setup beforehand how I would offer them options via the examples in the FFG game books, comics and books I've read (the comics are a really good choice too), previous RPG games (and not just Star Wars), plus assorted video media. I find having an index card (or you can use your digital devices) with some pre-made scenarios allows me to just pull one out that fits what I need and tweak it on the fly. So say, I want to offer a player's PC a new Force ability, tree or Force artifact, I typically have three tests minimum for a PC to interact with. These could be discipline tests against fear, Lore checks, education checks or even Force checks in which a PC has to use Force to accomplish something other than using an existing Force ability.

I have a few static places already developed and some of my Discovering-Learning-Training are mutable.

I either set a scaling difficulty (Average>Hard>Daunting) or they might be an opposed check using the players own ability scores and skills (None have figured out that i do this yet, I'll provide an example later). I also use the examples of difficulty from the various FFG books quite often, why re-invent the wheel.

I require all force abilities beyond the starting ones possessed by a PC to be discovered and researched, though in a game set in the KOTOR times I might allow for a PC to just be taught, but these are dark times.. A PC will have to use Lore, Education and perhaps a few social skill to wrangle information about a new Force ability. Knowledge is valuable.

The above might entail travel to another planet, access to a library or holocron, even another Force sensitive. They may need to find someone to translate an alien text or hire someone who can go to an extreme environment to recover what they need if they can't do it themselves.

Next they need to learn and understand what they have, this will require time and effort on the PC's part and each PC requires their own way of ingesting the knowledge, a teacher might add some boost dice. Depending on what they were seeking to learn for a new Force ability, the difficulty is set. A bigger investment in time that a PC can dedicate to learn will offer different advantages to the PC. Continual versus interruption will also adjust things. Low stress environments can also be helpful. Discipline and Lore are used here.

Lastly they must practice and train. Depending on the Force ability I allow a player to come up with their own idea for practice and training or I do it. Often here a player is rolling Force dice and trying out the Force ability and they are seeking to get a number of successful activation in "real world" or "on the job" experiences.

So for and example of the PC versus themselves, I might setup a social encounter or some other mock mirror of the PC for them to interact with. Say I needed them to have a light saber test fight, I might have them facing themselves or I might have them try to convince their mirror self to come peacefully or to provide some inner-self detail to unlock a past missed life goal or detail. Think scrooge and the ghosts of Christmas past-present and future.