Im sure you all know the Guri Fenn build but incase you dont the standard hyperspace one is:
Fenn - Outmanouver or Lonewolf
Guri - Outmanouver + Advanced Sensors + Shield Upgrade + Virago + Afterburners
Anyway, I was wondering would Adv. Proton torps be useful? They are not in hyperspace but in extended could they be a thing or is the 20 odd point more important?
Maybe take shield upgrade off Guri and but Adv. torps on both?
Fenn doesn't need Adv Proton Torps... He is an Adv Proton Torp naturally...
Guri… it would add punch, but she seems more about surviving and dancing out of arc. I'm not sure you'll find the torps as useful there as first appears.
Not much actually likes Advanced Proton Torpedoes... There's a lot of hoops to jump through to successfully launch.
Also keep in mind that all points in your bid can be effectively fortressed by Guri.
I'm not cutting the shield from Guri, since that's what puts her from 6 to 7 shields, so it'll require 4 damage to get her to half points.
With Fenn, I can't really see adding APT. I just don't like taking Lock actions on Fenn, I want to focus or move on him too much.
But on Guri, I can almost see APT, since she gets her focus for free at Range 1. It's really tempting, and Guri can still be effective when bumping.
1 hour ago, LagJanson said:Not much actually likes Advanced Proton Torpedoes... There's a lot of hoops to jump through to successfully launch.
Seems like it could be cool to try out on Kylo Ren. Adam Driver can Lock then reposition into range 1 and have Force tokens to cover eye results. Not sure that'd be better than regular Proton Torpedoes, but it's a lot cheaper which adjusts how Kylo and the rest of the squad could be built.
1 minute ago, theBitterFig said:Seems like it could be cool to try out on Kylo Ren. Adam Driver can Lock then reposition into range 1 and have Force tokens to cover eye results. Not sure that'd be better than regular Proton Torpedoes, but it's a lot cheaper which adjusts how Kylo and the rest of the squad could be built.
Force users are an exception... they have free focus changing mods. Without reload though... it's one shot, for one extra die. I don't think a three dice natural ship is a good place to put an APT.
Guaranteed crit. The extra die at range 1 translates to roughly .75 extra damage on the shot. Fenn Rau with Fearless will do an average of 4 damage with APT and lock, with no focus, against a 2 AGI focused ship. Plus the crit chance is 99% going through. There are a lot of times that one extra damage is worth it, or even important.
I think the crit plus the extra .75 damage is completely worth it, even on a 3 die ship.
18 minutes ago, LagJanson said:Force users are an exception... they have free focus changing mods. Without reload though... it's one shot, for one extra die. I don't think a three dice natural ship is a good place to put an APT.
It's mostly just the budget option, IMHO. Half as many charges as a regular Proton Torpedo for half as many points.
But even with apt on Guri I still have a 18 point bid?
24 minutes ago, LagJanson said:Force users are an exception... they have free focus changing mods. Without reload though... it's one shot, for one extra die. I don't think a three dice natural ship is a good place to put an APT.
Guri gets a free Focus aswell, and it will be one extra crit after fenn has attacked which potentially means the target is shieldless.
Meta question - how many out of the top 100 lists have a 18+ point bid?
Just now, K13R4N said:Guri gets a free Focus aswell, and it will be one extra crit after fenn has attacked which potentially means the target is shieldless.
I know. I'll admit it's something I've considered in the past as well. My opinion is just that, so do whatever you want.
1 minute ago, K13R4N said:Meta question - how many out of the top 100 lists have a 18+ point bid?
Answer - not many
17 minutes ago, LagJanson said:I know. I'll admit it's something I've considered in the past as well. My opinion is just that, so do whatever you want.
Answer - not many
I think it's exactly the same number as people who play Guri/Fenn. It's really the only list that requires/has room for such a massive bid.
Adv. Torps on Guri are a great hail-mary to throw out there when you know you’re going to end up at Range 1 of someone, and use your sensors to Target Lock them.
1 hour ago, K13R4N said:Meta question - how many out of the top 100 lists have a 18+ point bid?
Do you wind up playing against Phil GC often?
Anyhow, I think some Fat Han have pretty deep bids, and there was a Polish Luke/Wedge list going around a while back. Nicholas Tobin went to the final in the Bloomington Hyperspace Trial with Obi/Ani at a 12 point bid. But I suppose a lot of this is more in the 10-15 range, than 18+.
1 hour ago, theBitterFig said:Do you wind up playing against Phil GC often?
Anyhow, I think some Fat Han have pretty deep bids, and there was a Polish Luke/Wedge list going around a while back. Nicholas Tobin went to the final in the Bloomington Hyperspace Trial with Obi/Ani at a 12 point bid. But I suppose a lot of this is more in the 10-15 range, than 18+.
So maybe 3 in 1000?
3 hours ago, K13R4N said:So maybe 3 in 1000?
Bid, though, in a list like this, isn't only about going second. It's about points and MOV math. The more points of bid -> the fewer points of yours which can be destroyed without having both ships dead -> the fewer points you need to destroy of the enemy squad before time is called. Guri without APT protects 3 more points than Guri with APT. Those 3 points might matter, might not. A squad without APT protects 9 more points, presuming Fenn dies and Guri gets halved. 9 points of MOV starts to matter, and might easily be the difference between having to halve or kill another enemy ship. Or it might make a difference which enemy ships are killed.
Here's an example: Suppose Braylen with Crack Shot and Ten Nunb with Elusive, with Wedge and Cassian in a 200 point list. If you kill Wedge and Cassian, a half point Guri without APT will protect 75 points. Half points on either Braylen or Ten Nunb will leave 73 or 74 points left in the Rebel squad. Guri with APT at half points protects 72. If time is called, Guri without APT wins the game, Guri with Advanced Proton Torpedoes loses the game. That's a somewhat cooked example, but I think it demonstrates the basic principle.
That's not to say that APT is necessarily wrong. If the extra damage it can do helps you get to that stage in the game, makes it a bit more likely to finish off an enemy ship before it returns fire, that can also turn the tide of the game. Once you're already into a giant-bid list, it really isn't about how much bid you need, and more about what tools do your ships need to have to get to a good final gamestate. And if you don't really need the tool, you should probably cut it, to make it harder for your opponent to destroy as much of your list.
My opinion (at this time) would be to pass on the torpedoes. I've been playing around with them and desperately trying to make them work but right now they are too expensive to be worthwhile.
I've personally gotten more mileage out of Extra Shields than I have from Protons. In fact most of my Proton armed ships are destroyed before I can launch them so those points are usually wasted.
Extra Shields, on the other hand are always useful.
Played a game last night with apt on Guri (18 point bid) against Kylo and 2 upsilons ( a pretty good match-up tbh) and apt got a crit through on Kylo (only can focus) which won me the game as he wanted to coordinate a barrel roll with starkiller base.
6 hours ago, theBitterFig said:Bid, though, in a list like this, isn't only about going second. It's about points and MOV math. The more points of bid -> the fewer points of yours which can be destroyed without having both ships dead -> the fewer points you need to destroy of the enemy squad before time is called. Guri without APT protects 3 more points than Guri with APT. Those 3 points might matter, might not. A squad without APT protects 9 more points, presuming Fenn dies and Guri gets halved. 9 points of MOV starts to matter, and might easily be the difference between having to halve or kill another enemy ship. Or it might make a difference which enemy ships are killed.
Here's an example: Suppose Braylen with Crack Shot and Ten Nunb with Elusive, with Wedge and Cassian in a 200 point list. If you kill Wedge and Cassian, a half point Guri without APT will protect 75 points. Half points on either Braylen or Ten Nunb will leave 73 or 74 points left in the Rebel squad. Guri with APT at half points protects 72. If time is called, Guri without APT wins the game, Guri with Advanced Proton Torpedoes loses the game. That's a somewhat cooked example, but I think it demonstrates the basic principle.
That's not to say that APT is necessarily wrong. If the extra damage it can do helps you get to that stage in the game, makes it a bit more likely to finish off an enemy ship before it returns fire, that can also turn the tide of the game. Once you're already into a giant-bid list, it really isn't about how much bid you need, and more about what tools do your ships need to have to get to a good final gamestate. And if you don't really need the tool, you should probably cut it, to make it harder for your opponent to destroy as much of your list.
As this is my only test with apt I am fairly biased but I can see where you are coming from ,however, just like how in your situation if Guri didn't have apt you win giving a extra crit at the right time can be massive.
Say for example you opponent makes one mistake in a game, with only two ships you want to make as much from thar chance as possible and throwing a extra crit could a) destroy the ship b) does a direct hit c) gives a effect that benefits you in other ways eg. Double stress to be out of the game for 2 turns.
I am not backing apt as I have only had one game with it but in my mind it is logical to assume apt will be more effective just a bid. I will have to have a few more games to see how useful it is on a average game.
7 hours ago, K13R4N said:Played a game last night with apt on Guri (18 point bid) against Kylo and 2 upsilons ( a pretty good match-up tbh) and apt got a crit through on Kylo (only can focus) which won me the game as he wanted to coordinate a barrel roll with starkiller base.
Nice.
I guess all I mean is that thinking about how much bid-for-bid's-sake is left isn't necessarily the right frame, but about how much use you can get out of the upgrades. If you're feeling, on first testing it, that APT is getting work done, great. Might be worth it to keep rolling with it. If it doesn't do too much over more games? Maybe cut it, since unkillable points are good too.