How much training do you need...

By Archlyte, in Star Wars: Force and Destiny RPG

1 minute ago, Archlyte said:

I think down time activity counts though as in my OP I said description and role-play. In between sessions if training is addressed that counts to me as having given it some consideration. Also if it's part of backstory that counts too.

Mostly i see it glossed over

To be fair to rey's combat skills, she grew up alone on a hostile environment fighting off would be thugs, bandits, sexual predators, actual predators all on her own and Kylo was injured before their first fight even began and as snoke put it "split" from killing his father. He was not as strong in the force in that moment and from what I have understood force strength does matter in saber combat. In the second fight, she has the force they do not, also at that point she had some training with luke. Not combat training but still training in the way the force works. Beyond that she grew up hearing stories about the legends of Luke Skywalker and then finding out those stories are real and not just that but she has the same powers he does, so the lack of mental barrier to what is possible with the force is not there. With Luke people kept him away from hearing about the force and the imperial propaganda machine created doubt in peoples minds about their abilities and about their moralities. The bigger issues is not how good rey is at things it is how incompetent the villains are. Rey beat kylo in a fight already and she performed better against the guards then he did going into this 3rd movie we have no reason to think she wont absolutely decimate him again. In addition, the strength she has in Last Jedi is much more understandable as she received at least some guidance, but some of her abilities in Force Awakens just does not help. Simply put Rey has only ever failed to turn Kylo back and initially to accept her force abilities, but the second is resolved in the movie it is brought up in and does not serve as a barrier by the end at all. The other problem is her being much more capable then season veterans that are 30 or 40 years her senior. Look at Han, he lived in and loved the falcon yet when things go wrong with it Rey is the one that bypasses the compressor not Han. If they wanted to show Rey's mechanical skills what would have been better is if Han had the idea of what to do as the "mentor" character, and then being unable to do it because of his arthritic hands and then guiding Rey to do it and her picking up on it quick because she was already a skilled mechanic. But for her to be better than the Mentor character in every way invalidates the mentor character and is one of my biggest issue with the force awakens. At least with Luke she had something to teach him, but he was still stronger and more capable then her in every way and still needing to teach her.

Like @Daeglan mentioned, I like training and such to be a background activity, down time stuff. In rare occasions I might actually play and portray a scene, but more often than not this would be something that would affect the training character's allies as well, also involving them. One such example was a character in D20 Star Wars. She was to be tested in her Jedi trials to attain the rank of Jedi Knight. In some sort of montage storytelling I glossed over her individual tests, perhaps requiring a die roll or two at most. But her true test was about upholding the Jedi values and Code when her mentor wasn't around, combined with gaining insight in her leadership abilities and confidence. The player portrayed the character in doubt, in an excellent manner, as her character also had a potential love interest for a shady character who started out as (visibly) an enemy, but turned out to be more... let say a double agent. What followed was an interlude mission, aside from the regular campaign, in which the rest of the group was asked to defer to the Jedi's leadership and guidance. A single session involving the other player characters as well.

I do tend to tell something about training, however, even if it is just a montage storytell about how the character picks up new ways to hold a lightsaber, or learns how to focus on an object and then shift it to the side without touching it. But it is never more than just a telling when it is irrelevant to the story, or I handle it like my example above. When it actually is more relevant to the story. Never did I bother with an hour long RP part of the session, telling but a single player what the character learned, how it went, what went wrong, etc., while the rest is simply waiting.

10 hours ago, tunewalker said:

To be fair to rey's combat skills, she grew up alone on a hostile environment fighting off would be thugs, bandits, sexual predators, actual predators all on her own and Kylo was injured before their first fight even began and as snoke put it "split" from killing his father. He was not as strong in the force in that moment and from what I have understood force strength does matter in saber combat. In the second fight, she has the force they do not, also at that point she had some training with luke. Not combat training but still training in the way the force works. Beyond that she grew up hearing stories about the legends of Luke Skywalker and then finding out those stories are real and not just that but she has the same powers he does, so the lack of mental barrier to what is possible with the force is not there. With Luke people kept him away from hearing about the force and the imperial propaganda machine created doubt in peoples minds about their abilities and about their moralities. The bigger issues is not how good rey is at things it is how incompetent the villains are. Rey beat kylo in a fight already and she performed better against the guards then he did going into this 3rd movie we have no reason to think she wont absolutely decimate him again. In addition, the strength she has in Last Jedi is much more understandable as she received at least some guidance, but some of her abilities in Force Awakens just does not help. Simply put Rey has only ever failed to turn Kylo back and initially to accept her force abilities, but the second is resolved in the movie it is brought up in and does not serve as a barrier by the end at all. The other problem is her being much more capable then season veterans that are 30 or 40 years her senior. Look at Han, he lived in and loved the falcon yet when things go wrong with it Rey is the one that bypasses the compressor not Han. If they wanted to show Rey's mechanical skills what would have been better is if Han had the idea of what to do as the "mentor" character, and then being unable to do it because of his arthritic hands and then guiding Rey to do it and her picking up on it quick because she was already a skilled mechanic. But for her to be better than the Mentor character in every way invalidates the mentor character and is one of my biggest issue with the force awakens. At least with Luke she had something to teach him, but he was still stronger and more capable then her in every way and still needing to teach her.

A trained fighter will usually best an untrained experienced fighter. At least that has been my experience.

51 minutes ago, Daeglan said:

A trained fighter will usually best an untrained experienced fighter. At least that has been my experience.

How about a trained fighter that is crippled and injured vs an untrained experience fighter that is healthy. Also note all the things I said about Rey and Kylo in the force at that moment in time. Connection to and control of the force is massive for force users combat abilities in canon from what I have been able to see.

Just now, tunewalker said:

How about a trained fighter that is crippled and injured vs an untrained experience fighter that is healthy. Also note all the things I said about Rey and Kylo in the force at that moment in time. Connection to and control of the force is massive for force users combat abilities in canon from what I have been able to see.

Still should not have been so easy. I mean he was able to slam her into a tree with the force. And he beat Finn who is a trained fighter.

6 minutes ago, Daeglan said:

Still should not have been so easy. I mean he was able to slam her into a tree with the force. And he beat Finn who is a trained fighter.

Finn injured him further, and I would not call it easy. At first she lost until tapping into the force which as Snoke points out Kylo is not fully able to do at that time. I mean would you call Luke's one in a million shot easy? Remember that the force is a massive deciding factor. Also note that according to snoke at the end of Force Awakens Kylo is not technically a fully trained fighter yet either. Also if you REALLY want to push it Last Jedi suggests that Rey IS more than just an experienced fighter by the way she practices showing off what looks to be at least resembling something of a practical martial arts form.


Edit: I am going to put it in game terms. They both use brawn for their stat for lightsaber combat and they both have the enhance force power. Their brawn is both naturally 2. Now the act of killing his father brought Kylo from a FR3 individual down to an FR 1 individual his mind split, but he still has 2 ranks in lightsaber combat. Meanwhile at the start of the fight Rey is a FR 1 individual with 0 ranks in lightsaber training. At this time Kylo has the edge as he should, but at the end when she opens herself up to the force she temprorarily gains a force rating of 3 which brings her brawn up to 5 vs his 3 brawn 2 ranks... at this time SHE has the edge and takes it. The force is a massive decider in these things.

Edited by tunewalker

Doesn't look like a practical martial arts form to me. Looked like what an amateur thinks is a practical martial arts form looks like. And that still does not justify her beating half a dozen very experienced praetorian guards. But then I have yet to see Rey fail in any meaningful way.

2 minutes ago, Daeglan said:

Doesn't look like a practical martial arts form to me. Looked like what an amateur thinks is a practical martial arts form looks like. And that still does not justify her beating half a dozen very experienced praetorian guards. But then I have yet to see Rey fail in any meaningful way.

By the time of the guards she has trained with luke, she has the force they do not, but beyond that I believe that it was very dumb for her to perform better against them then Kylo. I have not argued that. I argued how she beat Kylo the first time, which makes perfect sense given the exact situation. I mean you shoot a martial artist in the chest and then ask them to fight an experienced combatant see how that goes.

Just now, tunewalker said:

By the time of the guards she has trained with luke, she has the force they do not, but beyond that I believe that it was very dumb for her to perform better against them then Kylo. I have not argued that. I argued how she beat Kylo the first time, which makes perfect sense given the exact situation. I mean you shoot a martial artist in the chest and then ask them to fight an experienced combatant see how that goes.

No she really hadnt. she had 2 lessons and neither of them involved the lightsaber.

6 minutes ago, Daeglan said:

No she really hadnt. she had 2 lessons and neither of them involved the lightsaber.

OK so you admit to not understanding how the force works then? Technically she had 3 lessons we just didnt see the third, she has the books from the tree you do not know what those entail, and it is the force. Time to quote Yoda "A jedi's strength flows from the force" combat training doesnt matter. Obi-wan "remember a jedi can feel the force flowing through them".... "you mean it controls your actions?".... "PARTIALLY, but it also obey's your commands". Training in the force alone will make a character a better fighter as the force does the work FOR THEM it is kind of like how some people see Spiderman's spidey sense. The force guides their hand ,guides their movements and gives them a 360 degree pre-warning system against danger. The stronger you are with the force, the less combat training you actually need.

Edited by tunewalker

Excellent. We haven't had a Rey is a Mary Sue thread in a week and a half.

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Edited by kaosoe

You mean the books we see her hide but never see her read.

And I do understand how the force works. The problem is that what you are describing requires practice and training. Something Luke got but she didnt really get. The Jedi wanted to start with young children for a reason. everything we have been shown up till Rey implied the force requires extensive training to use well. But Rey gets a couple lessons and suddenly she is a bad ***. I am not buying what you are selling. It cheapens the struggles Luke had.

9 minutes ago, Daeglan said:

You mean the books we see her hide but never see her read.

And I do understand how the force works. The problem is that what you are describing requires practice a  nd training. Something Luke got but she didnt really get. The Jedi wanted to start with young children for a reason. everything we have been shown up till Rey implied the force requires extensive training to use well. But Rey gets a couple lessons and suddenly she is a bad ***. I am not  buying what you are selling. It cheapens the struggles Luke had. 

You mean the week times training luke had where his biggest struggle was getting over the hang up that these things were possible because of the imperial propaganda machine and the fact that the person HE had to fight was fully steeped in the dark side, fully trained and one of the most powerful beings to ever exist in the star wars universe. While Rey had no such hang ups because she grew up with the stories of Luke and the person she has to fight is an emo wannabe who the first time she faces him is torn apart by the killing of his own father and severely injured. Also it takes a full day + for luke to finish his 3 lessons what do you think she is doing that entire time? Not practicing? Not training? Just standing there? and I am glad to see you admit to not knowing when Rey got the books or how much time she may have spent with them. We do not see Yoda training Luke in combat and yet your assuming he did, but rey has books whose contents are unknown that she had for an unknown amount of time and they couldnt possibly have taught her anything... ok. Apparently rey spent the entire time she was off screen just standing there doing nothing.

Look the sequel trilogy is not perfect, rey herself as I have said should have failed more in the first movie, specifically with Han being around to be the mentor so that Han could actually mentor, and Kylo should have held his own better against the guards then she did to set him up as a threat for the new movie, but there is no reason to think that her force abilities are over blown. She doesnt have the hang ups Luke had and Luke is a **** good teacher.

Edited by tunewalker
2 minutes ago, tunewalker said:

You mean the week times training luke had where his biggest struggle was getting over the hang up that these things were possible because of the imperial propaganda machine and the fact that the person HE had to fight was fully steeped in the dark side, fully trained and one of the most powerful beings to ever exist in the star wars universe. While Rey had no such hang ups because she grew up with the stories of Luke and the person she has to fight is an emo wannabe who the first time she faces him is torn apart by the killing of his own father and severely injured. Also it takes a full day + for luke to finish his 3 lessons what do you think she is doing that entire time? Not practicing? and I am glad to see you admit to not knowing when Rey got the books or how much time she may have spent with them. We do not see Yoda training Luke in combat and yet your assuming he did, but rey has books who's contents are unknown that she had for an unknown amount of time and they couldnt possibly have taught her anything... ok.

Actually we do see Yoda training Luke in combat. It is in the novelization. part of the problem is the way the story telling is done we dont really see her progress at all. Luke we actually see progress over time. We see him lifting and stacking rocks and running through the swamp steadily getting better over time. We dont see that with Rey. We see a couple lessons where Luke freaks out. It would be more convincing if we did see her reading the books. If we did see Luke being serious about training her.

5 minutes ago, Daeglan said:

Actually we do see Yoda training Luke in combat. It is in the novelization. part of the problem is the way the story telling is done we dont really see her progress a  t all. Luke we actually see progress over time. We see him lifting and stacking rocks and running through the swamp steadily getting better over time. We dont see that with Rey. We see a couple lessons where Luke freaks out. It would be more convincing if we did see her reading the books. If we did see Luke being serious about training her.

That is not a see technically, I mean in the novels we also have Obi saying Owen lars is his brother. As far as not seeing her with hang ups during her training, or her progression... How about right here. She does nothing at first, and then Luke guides her through each of the steps... again Luke **** good teacher, really really **** good teacher. Or how about the first movie when she tries to mess with the guard twice and fails twice. Third times the charm. Again Luke's issue was his hang up about what the force is capable of, Rey's difficulty is understanding what the force IS. Much easier to teach and much easier to learn, and much faster to learn. Luke required more training in it's practical application BECAUSE of that hang up. This is first thing in the morning, second lesson does not happen till the sun starts going down... she has all day 12 hours to practice.

Edited by tunewalker
20 minutes ago, kaosoe said:

Excellent. We haven't had a Rey is a Mary Sue thread in a week and a half.

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At least it isn't the same guy, making the exact same argume-- oh, wait. Nevermind.

31 minutes ago, tunewalker said:

That is not a see technically, I mean in the novels we also have Obi saying Owen lars is his brother. As far as not seeing her with hang ups during her training, or her progression... How about right here. She does nothing at first, and then Luke guides her through each of the steps... again Luke **** good teacher, really really **** good teacher. Or how about the first movie when she tries to mess with the guard twice and fails twice. Third times the charm. Again Luke's issue was his hang up about what the force is capable of, Rey's difficulty is understanding what the force IS. Much easier to teach and much easier to learn, and much faster to learn. Luke required more training in it's practical application BECAUSE of that hang up. This is first thing in the morning, second lesson does not happen till the sun starts going down... she has all day 12 hours to practice.

If those hang ups are so important why do the Jedi in the prequels take years to train the younglings? The younglings dont have any of the hang ups you claim are so important. You can't have it both ways.

Edited by Daeglan
5 minutes ago, Daeglan said:

If those hang ups are so important why do the Jedi in the prequels take years to train the younglings? The younglings dont have any of the hang ups you claim are so important. You can't have it both ways.

...because they are teaching them a fully codified, and established teaching regimen, to make sure the lessons are properly learned, and can be further taught if there are individual issues. The younglings were also not the main protagonist of a movie about life or death situations unfolding at breakneck speed, like the OT and NT (New Trilogy). They were background dressing for another story being told on a much faster time table. Just like how Luke had almost zero training at all from what we are shown on film in New Hope, but he was able to pick up the basics, and use the Force to do a 1/1000000 shot, and also to figure out how to block blaster shots, blind, after what is apparently one afternoon of training droid work. In both situations, the teachers were trying to teach the basic (and well established) idea of using the Force to augment, and heighten your own physical abilities. To use it to help make you better at something that you are only passingly good at, or that you are really good at, and are now great at. Ben never taught Luke how to use the Force to augment a torpedo trajectory calculation while flying in a trench at high speed, with enemy fire all around him, but we don't care because he used the Force to make up the difference in his lack of personal skill. Same thing with Rey.

2 minutes ago, KungFuFerret said:

...because they are teaching them a fully codified, and established teaching regimen, to make sure the lessons are properly learned, and can be further taught if there are individual issues. The younglings were also not the main protagonist of a movie about life or death situations unfolding at breakneck speed, like the OT and NT (New Trilogy). They were background dressing for another story being told on a much faster time table. Just like how Luke had almost zero training at all from what we are shown on film in New Hope, but he was able to pick up the basics, and use the Force to do a 1/1000000 shot, and also to figure out how to block blaster shots, blind, after what is apparently one afternoon of training droid work. In both situations, the teachers were trying to teach the basic (and well established) idea of using the Force to augment, and heighten your own physical abilities. To use it to help make you better at something that you are only passingly good at, or that you are really good at, and are now great at. Ben never taught Luke how to use the Force to augment a torpedo trajectory calculation while flying in a trench at high speed, with enemy fire all around him, but we don't care because he used the Force to make up the difference in his lack of personal skill. Same thing with Rey.

Well except Luke already knows how to make the shot so the Force enhanced what he already could do.

14 hours ago, Daeglan said:

Luke trained with Yoda for weeks and we dont know EVERYTHING that was covered. And I doubt lightsaber training was not covered given that afterwords Luke at least holds his own against Vader. Rey never turned on a lightsaber before she fought Kylo and then defeated him. And while we dont see all the training Luke got we know he got training which makes Luke using skills he didnt have before more believable. He got basic lightsaber training from Obi-Wan. Then more training in the force and lightsaber from Yoda. Lightsaber training is discussed in the Novelization of Empire. So yes people taught Luke.

2 hours ago, Daeglan said:

A trained fighter will usually best an untrained experienced fighter. At least that has been my experience.

1 hour ago, tunewalker said:

How about a trained fighter that is crippled and injured vs an untrained experience fighter that is healthy. Also note all the things I said about Rey and Kylo in the force at that moment in time. Connection to and control of the force is massive for force users combat abilities in canon from what I have been able to see.

Rey was a trained fighter, as well as experienced. IF you watch her fighting on Jakku, her moves with that staff are those a a skilled melee combatant, not a novice. Those skills do translate over to lightsaber combat, and as @tunewalker said, Kylo Ren was grievously wounded at the time of their fight.

47 minutes ago, Daeglan said:

Well except Luke already knows how to make the shot so the Force enhanced what he already could do.

And Rey already knows how to swing a long stick around, so the Force enhanced what she already could do.

I did not think we needed a “Ray is a Mary  Su  e “ post as most know she is. After all she is the only main character not to lose anything. As for the guard fight if not for the guard haveing a weapon disappear the movie whoud have ended very different and truly subvert expectations.

4 minutes ago, Oldmike1 said:

I did not think we needed a “Ray is a Mary  Su  e “ post as most know she is. After all she is the only main character not to lose anything. As for the guard fight if not for the guard haveing a weapon disappear the movie whoud have ended very different and truly subvert expectations.

2 hours ago, kaosoe said:

Excellent. We haven't had a Rey is a Mary Sue thread in a week and a half.

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Are we taking bets as for how long until this thread gets locked?