1 hour ago, kmanweiss said:

Actually, the mary sue stuff started well before Ep8. Very soon after Ep7 actually. Prior to release, and immediately following release, the complaints about Ep7 were majority racist and sexist based. Can't have a female lead, can't have black stormtroopers, stuff like that. It was blatant and therefor people ridiculed it or ignored it. But there was a subset of people that didn't like it for those reasons, but didn't want to be so blatant. They didn't want to show their hand. This is where Max Landis comes in. Max Landis has a pretty big following in the incel, mra, gamergate communities. Many of the things he's previously said fall in line with things they like to hear. When he announced that he thought Rey was a Mary Sue it gave them a legitimate, intelligent sounding soundbite they could use. Basically overnight the term Mary Sue got co-opted by those groups as a dog whistle of their hatred towards women (it's been bandied about for every female led movie since). But since the term is a legitimate descriptive tool used in literary circles, it gives them an air of legitimacy to their argument.

After that, the term was used, legitimately by non-sexist people that were disappointed by the movie. It became another arrow in their quiver of complaints. The problem is two-fold with the usage though. First, it's co-opted by sexist individuals that use it in bad faith. Secondly, she's on par with Luke and Anakin in this respect, so the argument seems disingenuous.

The fact of the matter is that Rey is no more (or less) a Mary Sue than Luke, Anakin, or even Solo. The various failures, successes, and growth stories behind the characters are all quite similar. Luke does all sorts of fantastical things prior to being trained in the force. ****, he breaks into the largest Imperial facility in the galaxy, bumbles about, saves a princess, escapes said facility, then illogically pilots one of a limited number of fighters in an incredibly important battle and is the person that despite lack of experience and lack of training in the force, uses the force to destroy the death star.

Rey probably qualifies as a Mary Sue. Many heroic figures in movies do. But Anakin and Luke most certainly qualify also. If you are nitpicking scenes to show that one time that Luke sort of failed, or how this fight went slightly different from that fight, you've already conceded the argument. Beyond that, every nitpick argument I've ever seen can be found in one of the other storylines also. The base explanation for why Anakin and Luke were so darn successful at everything was that they were 'strong with the force'. Everyone was content with that explanation for decades. Yet when Rey does the same stuff, she's a Mary Sue. That concept alone, on the surface, appears very sexist.

Humans can't podrace, but Anakin, a child, can win a race against the best. He's strong in the force. Anakin, a child, with no space piloting or combat experience, can start up a starfighter, use it's weapons, fly into space, engage in combat, and luck into destroying a major military target saving a planet. He's strong in the force. While suffering from injuries and exposure, luke, without training, can use the force to pull a lightsaber from a snowbank and cut himself free and use it to fight a snow monster. He's strong in the force. Luke uses the force to make his attack on the Death Star, blowing it up. He's strong in the force. Rey pilots the millenium falcon in combat with 2 tie fighters. Mary Sue. Rey, clearly skilled with martial combat, stands her own (does not win) against an injured sith apprentice that is still in training, after learning about her connection to the force. Mary Sue.

If your opinion is Rey is a Mary sure, fine. But then acknowledge that so are Luke, Anakin, and likely a slew of other Star Wars characters from the movies. Star Wars movies are lousy with Mary Sues. Sadly, the cartoon shows do a much better job of actually fleshing out characters and their full personality. But that's likely an issue with having much more time to explore those elements.

she technically defeats Kylo by the end of the duel but was losing at the start. Anakin loses an arm in the second movie losing to his first "big bad", Luke gets his rear end handed to him in the cantina first movie, gets shot down in the battle of hoth in the second movie and may have escaped the wampa but required Han's rescue that he had nothing to do with setting up in advanced, loses an arm to vader in the same movie and ultimately accomplishes nothing in the second movie beyond escaping the battle of hoth, which all the characters did. The issue with Rey is not the abilities she shows, but the abilities she shows by comparison to the BIG BADS of the franchise she is in. Anakin won a race against Sebulba, and sebulba doesnt have the force he is just a cheater. Luke hit the death star, but he didnt do it by himself, as harison ford says it "han is like the heroes hero" because he saves luke from the big bad that is vader. The first big bad with the force that anakin faces defeats him twice in the same movie culminating with the loss of an arm. The first big bad Luke faces plays with him till the end of the movie and then makes Luke lose a hand. The first big bad Rey faces ends up almost dead and is saved by the mountain separating them. While it was fine that he lost this first confrontation due to the circumstances that he faced at the time, the second movie did not help establish him as a threat when he was in perfect health as she once again out performed him in the battle against the praetorian guards. The issue with this is not with Rey's abilities, but with her abilities in comparison to those around her. SHe is so comepetent that there is no tension going into the last movie, we all knew that she would win in the end because that is how star wars goes, but the sequel trilogy is the only one to fail to establish the lead villain as a legitimate threat to the hero. In addition to this the issue is with Rey's relationship with the mentor characters of her movie. While luke's relationship with Han, obi and yoda all had these characters show themselves better than luke in more than one instance, with Han being the more experienced pilot and scoundrel and the like he saves luke multiple times in the first 2 movies. In fact Han is the more competent of the 2 in a vast majority of situations for the first 2 movies. Meanwhile Han teaches rey nothing in the force awakens before he is killed completely undermining his mentor status. Making Luke Rey's only true mentor. The issue is not with Rey's abilities but how Rey undermines the threat and abilities of some of the rest of the cast. I know this is weird coming from me as I was arguing that what she was doing wasnt all that special, and I still believe that, but the issue is not with what she does, but with the context of the narrative making everyone else seem so INCOMPETENT, thus reducing the roles of the other heroes in the successes of the narrative as well as reducing the overall threat of the villains in the narrative. This is not to say that the other heroes havent done things, but it always feels like they succeed because of the incompetence of the villains rather than their own competence and the villains succeed against the other heroes because the other heroes incompetence not because of the villains competence.

Edit: i am sorry for everyone that read that it was kind of loopish in it's argument. TL:DR Rey's abilties are fine, the problem is the lack of ability of her villains undermining the threat of the villains of the movie and making the third installment have little to no tension.

38 minutes ago, penpenpen said:

She sure turned Ben Solo back to the light, proving her claim it could be done.

It's also worth noting that Kylo takes out 5 of them, while Rey deals with 3. Also, she pretty much fails miserably in everything she tries against Snoke.

JJ doesn't do setup. He throws out stuff that sounds like setup and only occasionally follows up on it. See also Steven Moffat.

To be fair I think it starts out that way but it splits off to 4 and 4 by the end of it, and Rey has to save Kylo so he doesnt really end up taking out 5 of them. I may need to rewatch the scene but it is purposefully edited in a way to be difficult to track the exact number of guards and weapons and to make it just look cool. After all it is a group fight and you cant have it be obvious that some members of the group are just standing back and waiting their turn as happens in all group fights, but essentially Rey having to save Kylo means what is gathered from the casual viewer is that Rey held her own against the guards better than Kylo did, thus undermining Kylo's threat.


The moment I believe Kylo starts to turn threatening is his first on screen force choke, after that moment you can see the more controlled commander start to come in. It is not all at once, but gradually we can see he gives orders to Hux and hux relays them and when hux doesnt he gets silenced. Unfortunately this doesnt establish him as a physical threat, and I am hoping the start of 9 will help establish Kylo as stronger than he was and a more physical threat.


Edit 2: I think my favorite character of the new trilogy so far has been Finn, Han does not feel like a mentor for Rey, but instead a mentor for Finn, kind of telling him that the "rogue lifestyle" isnt really worth it, lying is a waste of time they always find out in the end, Rose teaching him that the fight is not for hate, but for hope and love. Poe teaching him that being reckless every now and again is needed, but also providing him a brother in arms so to speak and Rey being the first person to look at him as if he isnt a monster when they first met. Finn's journey to me has been the most interesting of the trilogy and I really hope he doesnt get relegated to goofy side character in the next movie for all the force power stuff that is going to be in it.

1 hour ago, Daeglan said:

I like how you basically ignored what i actually said. Then went on about what you decided i said. Which is a major part of why the fandom is divided. Instead of actually listening you decide what the other person must believe and thus can dismiss what they said.

Much like you do to every single counterpoint that gets brought up that highlights and illustrates just how unfairly and completely biased your view on Rey is while disproving so many of your so called "points?" Even Tramp Graphics has a better track record of listening to other people's counterarguments than you do where this topic is concerned.

1 hour ago, penpenpen said:

She sure turned Ben Solo back to the light, proving her claim it could be done.

It's also worth noting that Kylo takes out 5 of them, while Rey deals with 3. Also, she pretty much fails miserably in everything she tries against Snoke.

JJ doesn't do setup. He throws out stuff that sounds like setup and only occasionally follows up on it. See also Steven Moffat.

And Rian Johnson completely ignored it.

1 hour ago, Donovan Morningfire said:

Much like you do to every single counterpoint that gets brought up that highlights and illustrates just how unfairly and completely biased your view on Rey is while disproving so many of your so called "points?" Even Tramp Graphics has a better track record of listening to other people's counterarguments than you do where this topic is concerned.

That would be because none of your counterpoints have ever addressed my complaints at all.

For example. Kylo tortures Rey. Kylo Murders His own father and a new friend/father figure. and yet after a couple conversations she is gonna drop everything and go to this person? A couple days later.... That makes absolutely no sense at all. Not from a character perspective.

3 weeks, 3 arguments about Rey being a Mary Sue. No new ground covered, no give and take, no compromise. Just the same people making the same argument over and over, ad nauseum.

10 minutes ago, Daeglan said:

For example. Kylo tortures Rey. Kylo Murders His own father and a new friend/father figure. and yet after a couple conversations she is gonna drop everything and go to this person? A couple days later.... That makes absolutely no sense at all. Not from a character perspective.

Vader tortures Luke's friends, cuts his hand off , hurls tons of heavy containers to bludgeon him to submission, threatens to kill him, actually does kill several of his flying buddies in New Hope during that strafing run on the Death Star, and yet Luke is willing to forgive all that and try and go to him to try and redeem him? And don't try the "but it's his father" angle. My dad is a festering piece of crap, I doubt I will shed a tear when he dies, and I haven't spoken to him outside of mandatory family things in probably 20 years. He didn't cut my hand off, and I've written that guy out of my life. So if you're going with "her motivations for trying to reach him are flimsy", then you need to apply those to Luke too. And Vader was WAY more of a ****** than Kylo was at the point we see in Last Jedi.

But Luke did have a good reason to try and reach Vader, aside from "He's mah daddy!", he felt the chance for redemption in him, which is the entire arc of Star Wars. The redemptive power of love over hate and fear. Rey felt the same thing with Kylo. Yes, he did bad things, only one bad thing to her, and it wasn't really that bad, as she resisted him fairly quickly. And don't forget, she had little to now actual investment in Han. I mean, you try the "new father figure" angle, but you gloss over that she's known Han for just as long as Kylo. A few days. If it's ok for her to attach to him so deeply in a few days, with only the most casual of conversations with him most of the time, then it's equally ok for her to develop an equal (if initially more volatile) connection to Kylo. But that's not why she tries to redeem him. She felt the chance for redemption in him, which is the entire arc of Star Wars. The redemptive power of love over hate and fear, even her own. The two of them are messed up kids, but they both sense in the other, something they are missing, a need to be fulfilled, a hole to be healed. They aren't sure what is going on with them, but they know they've never felt it with anyone else. They don't want to lose that connection, as it's something they both have craved their entire lives. So they both reach out to the other, to try and get the other to join them.

That was pretty obvious in the film, and from a character perspective, it totally checks out. In narrative themes in general, and in Star Wars in particular.

adding onto this, when it is clear that he can not be redeemed she does shut the door on that option, both literally and figuratively and they both look and seem to feel like they have lost something in the process. In some ways it may make Kylo even darker as his ambitions and hate are now fueled by this further abandonment, first by his father and mother when they sent him to luke, then by Luke when he felt how dark kylo was becoming and what he could become, then by snoke when he was unbalanced by killing his own father and his first real physical loss and now finally by Rey, the one other lost soul in the galaxy that could feel the force the way he does, the one last person he could connect with, when she chose the resistance and his mother over him.

17 minutes ago, Vek Baustrade said:

3 weeks, 3 arguments about Rey being a Mary Sue. No new ground covered, no give and take, no compromise. Just the same people making the same argument over and over, ad nauseum.

Yeah, it's like Daeglan is deliberately being an obnoxious troll about the matter just for the sake of being an obnoxious knuckle-dragging troll.

48 minutes ago, KungFuFerret said:

Vader tortures Luke's friends, cuts his hand off , hurls tons of heavy containers to bludgeon him to submission, threatens to kill him, actually does kill several of his flying buddies in New Hope during that strafing run on the Death Star, and yet Luke is willing to forgive all that and try and go to him to try and redeem him? And don't try the "but it's his father" angle. My dad is a festering piece of crap, I doubt I will shed a tear when he dies, and I haven't spoken to him outside of mandatory family things in probably 20 years. He didn't cut my hand off, and I've written that guy out of my life. So if you're going with "her motivations for trying to reach him are flimsy", then you need to apply those to Luke too. And Vader was WAY more of a ****** than Kylo was at the point we see in Last Jedi.

But Luke did have a good reason to try and reach Vader, aside from "He's mah daddy!", he felt the chance for redemption in him, which is the entire arc of Star Wars. The redemptive power of love over hate and fear. Rey felt the same thing with Kylo. Yes, he did bad things, only one bad thing to her, and it wasn't really that bad, as she resisted him fairly quickly. And don't forget, she had little to now actual investment in Han. I mean, you try the "new father figure" angle, but you gloss over that she's known Han for just as long as Kylo. A few days. If it's ok for her to attach to him so deeply in a few days, with only the most casual of conversations with him most of the time, then it's equally ok for her to develop an equal (if initially more volatile) connection to Kylo. But that's not why she tries to redeem him. She felt the chance for redemption in him, which is the entire arc of Star Wars. The redemptive power of love over hate and fear, even her own. The two of them are messed up kids, but they both sense in the other, something they are missing, a need to be fulfilled, a hole to be healed. They aren't sure what is going on with them, but they know they've never felt it with anyone else. They don't want to lose that connection, as it's something they both have craved their entire lives. So they both reach out to the other, to try and get the other to join them.

That was pretty obvious in the film, and from a character perspective, it totally checks out. In narrative themes in general, and in Star Wars in particular.

yeah. years later after significant personal growth. Not 3 days later.
The time from the start of the Force Awakens and the end of The Last Jedi is maybe a week. The Time between A New Hope and Empire is 2 years. And another 3 years between Empire and Return. So Luke has time to come to peace with the events. He has time to be discovering things about the force and training. He actually trains under Yoda. Rey has less than a week from knowing she has the force to being able to mind trick people and move objects with far better ability that Luke did his first time. And a day later she is picking up an entire landslide of boulders...

52 minutes ago, Daeglan said:

For example. Kylo tortures Rey. Kylo Murders His own father and a new friend/father figure. and yet after a couple conversations she is gonna drop everything and go to this person? A couple days later.... That makes absolutely no sense at all. Not from a character perspective.

But he Force-sexted her! And she likes his chest.

15 minutes ago, Donovan Morningfire said:

Yeah, it's like Daeglan is deliberately being an obnoxious troll about the matter just for the sake of being an obnoxious knuckle-dragging troll.

It is like you guys keep ignoring what I say and decide what I said and argue that. Instead of actually discussing the points I am making. Can't imagine why that does not work. You guys already have what you think my complaint is in your head and that is what you argue. Which is why you fail. Try actually considering what I actually say instead of what you want me to have said.

1 minute ago, HappyDaze said:

But he Force-sexted her! And she likes his chest.

try asking any girl how effective sending unsolicited pics works.

27 minutes ago, Daeglan said:

yeah. years later after significant personal growth. Not 3 days later.
The time from the start of the Force Awakens and the end of The Last Jedi is maybe a week. The Time between A New Hope and Empire is 2 years. And another 3 years between Empire and Return. So Luke has time to come to peace with the events. He has time to be discovering things about the force and training. He actually trains under Yoda. Rey has less than a week from knowing she has the force to being able to mind trick people and move objects with far better ability that Luke did his first time. And a day later she is picking up an entire landslide of boulders...

Now you're switching the complaint to her ability with the Force, not "it's been a few days, she doesn't have a reason to care about this guy." Stop moving the goal post. If you're going to criticize her for not having enough time to develop a bond with Kylo because it's been a few days, then it's equally flimsy for her to give a crap about Han after just a few days. Also, Luke shouldn't have been so torn up over Ben's death, he barely knew that guy too, by your logic. He should've just been like "Oh, bummer, the crazy old hermit dude who I've known for like a week maybe died, oh well, guess I'll just move on with this hot girl in the see through dress."
And some things that a parent does to you when you are younger, you don't "come to peace with." Torturing my friends and cutting off my hand, are something I wouldn't just get over a few years later, if you're going to try and go that angle. Like I said before, my dad did decidedly less severe things to me, and it's been 20 years, and it's not something I will get over, or forgive him for.

But I don't require my fictional space wizard King Arthur characters to line up perfectly with reality. Narratively, people experience emotions far quicker than is usual in real life. Though passion for someone has been known to be quick and steamy IRL too, so pure physical attraction I think can, and is that fast, so it checks out. Other emotions, not so much. But who cares? It's a 2 hour film, they want to stir emotions, so they use some short hand for how quickly people would actually become attached to a person, and move the story along . Because that how a narrative works.

30 minutes ago, Daeglan said:

It is like you guys keep ignoring what I say and decide what I said and argue that. Instead of actually discussing the points I am making. Can't imagine why that does not work. You guys already have what you think my complaint is in your head and that is what you argue. Which is why you fail. Try actually considering what I actually say instead of what you want me to have said.

Perhaps try taking your own advice.

Of course, it also helps if you don't keep moving the goal posts every time one of your so-called nitpicks gets blown out of the water. Especially as it's becoming clearer and clearer that you actually haven't watched the movie, and at this point are just parroting various complaints by the whiny basement-dwelling manchildren whose incredibly fragile masculinity are threatened by the mere existence of female characters such as Rey and Carol Danvers, all while claiming they don't hate characters such as Ripley or T2 Sarah Connor when in reality they do because those tw@ts know full well they'll get eaten alive for attacking such iconic movie heroines.

Or better yet, give the whole thing a rest, accept that most people here don't share your incredibly narrow-minded view on the female cast of the sequels, and simply move on rather than constantly derailing threads.

1 minute ago, KungFuFerret said:

Now you're switching the complaint to her ability with the Force, not "it's been a few days, she doesn't have a reason to care about this guy." Stop moving the goal post. If you're going to criticize her for not having enough time to develop a bond with Kylo because it's been a few days, then it's equally flimsy for her to give a crap about Han after just a few days. Also, Luke shouldn't have been so torn up over Ben's death, he barely knew that guy too, by your logic. He should've just been like "Oh, bummer, the crazy old hermit dude who I've known for like a week maybe died, oh well, guess I'll just move on with this hot girl in the see through dress."
And some things that a parent does to you when you are younger, you don't "come to peace with." Torturing my friends and cutting off my hand, are something I wouldn't just get over a few years later, if you're going to try and go that angle. Like I said before, my dad did decidedly less severe things to me, and it's been 20 years, and it's not something I will get over, or forgive him for.

But I don't require my fictional space wizard King Arthur characters to line up perfectly with reality. Narratively, people experience emotions far quicker than is usual in real life. Though passion for someone has been known to be quick and steamy IRL too, so pure physical attraction I think can, and is that fast, so it checks out. Other emotions, not so much. But who cares? It's a 2 hour film, they want to stir emotions, so they use some short hand for how quickly people would actually become attached to a person, and move the story along . Because that how a narrative works.

No I am not. She went every event in the Last Jedi makes no sense. She goes from no ability with the force to being able to mind trick someone the next day to lifting a whole landslide worth of boulders. She goes from being tortures by a guy watching him murder a new friend to running to him after a couple forcetime conversations. I am not buying anything about Rey as being remotely plausible. Add to that we have Luke who literally go from throwing away his lightsaber and sacrifice himself to save his father as the emperor is murdering him to ready to murder his nephew in his sleep.

As to who cares? A whole lot of people who are very vocal about how bad the writing is. A lot of stuff could have been fixed by having more time pass between Force Awakens and The Last Jedi and actually having the story character driven rather than plot driven. So many character decisions are plot driven and dont make sense character wise.

1 minute ago, Donovan Morningfire said:

Perhaps try taking your own advice.

Of course, it also helps if you don't keep moving the goal posts every time one of your so-called nitpicks gets blown out of the water. Especially as it's becoming clearer and clearer that you actually haven't watched the movie, and at this point are just parroting various complaints by the whiny basement-dwelling manchildren whose incredibly fragile masculinity are threatened by the mere existence of female characters such as Rey and Carol Danvers, all while claiming they don't hate characters such as Ripley or T2 Sarah Connor when in reality they do because those tw@ts know full well they'll get eaten alive for attacking such iconic movie heroines.

Or better yet, give the whole thing a rest, accept that most people here don't share your incredibly narrow-minded view on the female cast of the sequels, and simply move on rather than constantly derailing threads.

Dont make ad hominem attacks. You are better than that.
And maybe the problem is the movie is so full of problems that all of them are interrelated.

20 minutes ago, Daeglan said:

Dont make ad hominem attacks. You are better than that.

I'm not even remotely convinced that he is better than that, and that's why I have him on ignore. If he's making ad hominem attacks, I'd suggest using the Ignore list and/or using the "Report post" feature in the upper right of his posts.

1 hour ago, Daeglan said:

No I am not. She went every event in the Last Jedi makes no sense. She goes from no ability with the force to being able to mind trick someone the next day to lifting a whole landslide worth of boulders. She goes from being tortures by a guy watching him murder a new friend to running to him after a couple forcetime conversations. I am not buying anything about Rey as being remotely plausible. Add to that we have Luke who literally go from throwing away his lightsaber and sacrifice himself to save his father as the emperor is murdering him to ready to murder his nephew in his sleep.

As to who cares? A whole lot of people who are very vocal about how bad the writing is. A lot of stuff could have been fixed by having more time pass between Force Awakens and The Last Jedi and actually having the story character driven rather than plot driven. So many character decisions are plot driven and dont make sense character wise.

...ok I'm officially done with you and this discussion. If you can say that changing the point of criticism that was being addressed in my post from "she didn't have justification for being emotionally attached to Kylo" to "She shouldn't have learned her magic powers that quickly" isn't changing the point, and thus moving the goal post, then you are either too dense to comprehend separate points of criticism, or intentionally being obtuse for the purposes of contrariness.

Either way, I'm not wasting anymore time on you.

56 minutes ago, KungFuFerret said:

...ok I'm officially done with you and this discussion. If you can say that changing the point of criticism that was being addressed in my post from "she didn't have justification for being emotionally attached to Kylo" to "She shouldn't have learned her magic powers that quickly" isn't changing the point, and thus moving the goal post, then you are either too dense to comprehend separate points of criticism, or intentionally being obtuse for the purposes of contrariness.

Either way, I'm not wasting anymore time on you.

So by your logic I can say both things are an issue. Got it.

I'm not entirely sure if this conversation is getting anywhere productive. I liked Episode 7 which was a solid movie that was needed to kick start things, I was ok with episode 8 because it did interesting things to the narrative that I think was necessary (I loved everything about Kylo in that movie and his betrayal of Snoke), but I didn't like how the two movies interacted with one another. In the same way that I felt Rogue 1 was a fairly awful, lifeless movie at it's core that was successful because it was set in the star wars universe. Rey isn't the point of this thread, though I could see how the second movie in that trilogy could offer some points of contention, but I would much rather if you guys took that discussion elsewhere.

To me, being good at something is three parts: Training and willpower to succeed shouldn't be of any surprise, but destiny is the other major component. Are you destined to do something? If you are then that will inevitability mean you are better at something then someone who isn't. Destiny and the Force seemingly having some agency is a part of star wars and it could even be argued that people who aren't force sensitive also have roles to play too. Vader was able to come back because he met Padme who ultimately had Luke, Lando and Wedge were instrumental in the second death star destruction and the former was important. Likewise the protagonists rapidly developed abilities because they were destined for great things in the galaxy thus the force will actively help people achieve their potential with fairly minimal instruction, Luke went from being absolutely hammered by Darth Vader to being his superior in Lightsaber combat within the period of at least a couple of years and I feel his destiny played no small part in that.

So if the character has training, willpower and a destiny to do something? Wow, that character is going to get really proficient really quickly. So it isn't necessary to have a character or several go through lengthily training sections lasting for years unless that is the way you want the story to go (which time jumps between adventures may be appropriate.). Likewise, if a character needs to get better in a matter of weeks to fight a nemesis or achieve a difficult goal, then encourage their growth with XP and lots of opportunity to gain it if they just simply don't have a lot of time to sit around and be sure to throw a bit of conflict from the mentor figure. (You are not ready! You must finish your training!) to offer that last challenge before they walk out through that open door. After all not every mentor needs to be slain; sometimes their unwillingness to engage in galactic politics can be enough of a motivation, or even pull a batman beginnings where their mentor is actually an extremists who must be stopped by the PC's some point down the line.

"But I haven't written a destiny for the PC's, I can't expect to set up a plot point 3 years in the future! I have no idea where they would be!" Very true. But you don't need to have an end point to begin shaping a character's story. My character Tobin Stryder was initially a non-force sensitive Gadgetteer/Assassin who was on a western style quest to avenge his father by killing the bounty hunter who did it. But in subtly being manipulated into repairing a sith lightsaber (he rolled double T and fixed it much quicker then the GM expected) radically changed his character progression from that point forward. Flash forward 4 years that vengeful boy had killed that bounty hunter, been betrayed by the lightsaber for his lack of ambition and ultimately after years of struggling with his conflict of self previsation that ultimately had him as this small, insignificant force sensitive who was always looking to put other people between him and the people who hunted him. The second moment that his life changed forever when he discovered one simple fact: He was a father from that one night stand he had with that NPC a while back and that child was currently being held by the Cabal he fled from and Tobin, with the assistance from the party whom he had been previously been betraying on the sly for buried his hatchet and finally decided to stop being the victim; he was trained by the sith to hunt and he ended up setting himself on a crusade to ensure that no one else would be hunted like he was. And so fourth.

The GM I had never had any great plan for my character, but he made a note of things I did and we would talk about things that would be cool cinematically and we just went from there, with each major moment cementing his position in the galaxy of a man who had once did some great wrongs, but decided to rebel against his victimisation to build his own destiny as an eradicator of the dark side having ultimately thwarted his own master's scheme, as was his destiny. The hero the galaxy ultimately would never know it had because he was so physically unremarkable as a character so his life story is inherently unbelievable, and if it's one thing he's learnt throughout his life being a well known hero is more hustle then it's worth after all he doesn't need the acknowledgement these days to know he's doing the right thing.

So yeah, Training, Willpower and Destiny. I kinda consider that the holy trinity of training montages. Most NPC's don't have the latter, but if your PC's do then don't give them any breaks. XD