Can we see an emergency change tomorrow or Tuesday?

Some concerns:

Rebel Beef (Cassian, Leia crew, Wedge etc.) the entire faction needs a points change 😁

Han Brake Jake - I know this was discussed awhile back and while it hasn't roared it ugly head this weekend (like Quad Phantoms have the past few weeks again) it is still an issue and should not be ignored.

Phantoms - nuff said

Scum - where are they seriously they show up on top tables every once and awhile but I feel they need help.

See the "Up Coming Wave" thread for all possible answers, both snarky and uninformative.

None of these lists need an emergency points changes. On the contrary, these changes need to be well thought out and directed.

I believe FFG devs are watching tournament results and will react accordingly.

There are Hyperspace trials on July 20th.

To my understanding these are meant to be season two, so you'd think the next change will before then? And, more than like, a week before then?

But who knows, and we also don't know the release date for wave four.

My guess? Whenever the Wave 4 ships get points (probably not before 13th June, since the 6th release date has been squashed).

I know FFG has discussed doing twice-yearly updates (six months from the last major revision would be late July), but there's enough data that it probably wouldn't be too early to drop the points in mid-Juke (hah! Freudian slip!) mid-June with the Wave 4 release. I don't think it'd be too soon in terms of either FFG having enough insight into over- and under-performing cards, as well as not really far off the "every 6 months" schedule they appear to be on.

5 hours ago, Cgriffith said:

Han Brake Jake - I know this was discussed awhile back and while it hasn't roared it ugly head this weekend (like Quad Phantoms have the past few weeks again) it is still an issue and should not be ignored.

This is a list which cannot be addressed by points alone. Rebel Beef and Quad Phantoms all need a few tweaks (I'd send probably all the standard pilots in both lists up by 2 points, plus Leia up 4-6 points), but are easily fixable by points. So while Han like most Init 6 ships could use a small bump up in price, I don't think any adjustments are really needed to most of the core upgrades in that list (R2-D2 should go up some... he's got power more like in the 10-12 point range).

Han's Inertial Dampeners is kind of just too strong of a combo. If it's up to me, I ban the combo of R2-D2 crew and Inertial Dampeners on any ship. Ban lists are something they haven't done yet, but I think it'd be a nice tool in their pocket. They've done something pretty similar in L5R and other card games, and I think it'd be nice here. It will always happen a few fundamentally broken combos slip through the playtesting cracks, and banning specific combos will, in some cases, be just better than removing slots or pricing upgrades into oblivion. Those destroy a lot more than the combos.

For instance, C-3PO should be banned on Leebo, and Leebo should get his crew slot back. I can't think of any other crew I want to run on Leebo, but the fact that he can't run *any* is kind of an insult, when C-3PO and only C-3PO was causing issues. That doesn't mean every point or slot change they've made should be undone in favor of a ban. TIE Phantoms are probably better off with Gunner over Crew, however, rather than just a Ban on Vader crew. But it would be nice to see a few more gunners which actually do something on a front-arc ship.

The thing about a banlist which would work really well is that it'd be a tool for FFG to use in balance that would be pretty quick, nearly as quick as points adjustments, as opposed to longer and more difficult stuff like errata and rules updates.

apply republic Arc point-scaling to name pilots with potent (re: dice modding) abilities!

provided we aren't talking about fodder ships, ofc

10 minutes ago, theBitterFig said:

My guess? Whenever the Wave 4 ships get points (probably not before 13th June, since the 6th release date has been squashed).

I know FFG has discussed doing twice-yearly updates (six months from the last major revision would be late July), but there's enough data that it probably wouldn't be too early to drop the points in mid-Juke (hah! Freudian slip!) mid-June with the Wave 4 release. I don't think it'd be too soon in terms of either FFG having enough insight into over- and under-performing cards, as well as not really far off the "every 6 months" schedule they appear to be on.

This is a list which cannot be addressed by points alone. Rebel Beef and Quad Phantoms all need a few tweaks (I'd send probably all the standard pilots in both lists up by 2 points, plus Leia up 4-6 points), but are easily fixable by points. So while Han like most Init 6 ships could use a small bump up in price, I don't think any adjustments are really needed to most of the core upgrades in that list (R2-D2 should go up some... he's got power more like in the 10-12 point range).

Han's Inertial Dampeners is kind of just too strong of a combo. If it's up to me, I ban the combo of R2-D2 crew and Inertial Dampeners on any ship. Ban lists are something they haven't done yet, but I think it'd be a nice tool in their pocket. They've done something pretty similar in L5R and other card games, and I think it'd be nice here. It will always happen a few fundamentally broken combos slip through the playtesting cracks, and banning specific combos will, in some cases, be just better than removing slots or pricing upgrades into oblivion. Those destroy a lot more than the combos.

For instance, C-3PO should be banned on Leebo, and Leebo should get his crew slot back. I can't think of any other crew I want to run on Leebo, but the fact that he can't run *any* is kind of an insult, when C-3PO and  only C-3PO was causing issues. That doesn't mean every point or slot change they've made should be undone in favor of a ban. TIE Phantoms are probably better off with Gunner over Crew, however, rather than just a Ban o  n Vader crew. But it would be nice to see a few more gunners which actually do something on a fron  t-a  rc shi  p  .

The thing about a banlist which would work really well is that it'd be a tool for FFG to use in balance that would be pretty quick, nearly as quick as points adjustments, as opposed to longer and more difficult stuff like errata and rules updates.

I think you have some great suggestions, especially your explanations on how to “ban” certain cards on certain ships and still possibly allowing the card still to be used on other ships. As you mention I think using the app this type of removal or ban should be able to be able to be accomplished easily and make setup of lists easy to navigate without those cards showing for those pilots/ships.

As to the estimated points release FFG has set a precedent to do emergency changes with Upsilon Shuttles. Do I think they will, I don’t know but if they don’t tweak some cards/pilots then the meta will remain stale and fall into the trap 1.0 did during Wave 8 with Triple Jumps. I’m looking at you Quad Phantoms.

2 minutes ago, Cgriffith said:

As to the estimated points release FFG has set a precedent to do emergency changes with Upsilon Shuttles. Do I think they will, I don’t know but if they don’t tweak some cards/pilots then the meta will remain stale and fall into the trap 1.0 did during Wave 8 with Triple Jumps. I’m looking at you Quad Phantoms.

I think the main reason they won't do an emergency update is two-fold.

• First, I think it's not an emergency. Quad Phantoms are too good, but they've been too good since before January. It's a popular list and it wins a lot, so it'll almost surely get knocked down a peg or two, but is it the kind of thing shutting down play and driving lists out of the game due to unavoidable first-turn shenanigans?
  • Also, Triple Upsilon got the nerfhammer hard because it was mostly just shenanigans, rather than a more traditional "just plain good" list. That one gimmick of plastering an opponent on the first turn, even if there were a decent number of ships/lists which could beat it, entirely closed the door on a lot of strategies.
  • Phantoms aren't like that. They aren't some exploit or one-trick-pony sort of list. They're just strong ships for the price, with more firepower and maneuverability than they should be able to afford. They're too popular and too strong, and probably almost no one thinks Phantoms will go without nerfs. But it's not an "X-Wing could be literally unplayable for 5 months" situation. It just isn't.
• Second is timing. They have to release a new wave pretty soon, and we're not long off from the scheduled points update in July. Triple Ups nerf came like pretty shortly after the update (so 5 months before the next major revision). Since the July update and Wave 4 releases are coming up fairly soon, and we know FFG is going to address things in that time-frame, I think players will wait. If FFG had regularly scheduled nerf updates when Triple Jumps were an issue, the Forums probably would have been a quieter place. At the latest, there's going to be a major metagame shake-up in like a month and a half.

I also am not sure it's the right to call it a 'precedent.' That word tends to carry with it an expectation not just that it happened once, but that it serves as a guide for their future actions. Here's their statement at the time: " X-Wing players should expect relatively few of these intermittant [sic] updates as we remain focused on the two yearly updates in January and July." It's pretty clear they don't intend to do Upsilon-like nerfs often. They're trying tell us that it almost surely won't happen.

16 minutes ago, Cgriffith said:

I think you have some great suggestions, especially your explanations on how to “ban” certain cards on certain ships and still possibly allowing the card still to be used on other ships. As you mention I think using the app this type of removal or ban should be able to be able to be accomplished easily and make setup of lists easy to navigate without those cards showing for those pilots/ships.

I'll add this: if FFG does ever add bans, I hope they're pretty few and far between. The only two I can think of off the top of my head would be R2-D2 and Inertial Dampeners together, and Leebo/C-3PO.

I hope that the release of Wave IV sees a tweak to CIS points overall, in particular to make Grappling Struts free for Vultures even if it means increasing the cost of the basic Vulture by 1.

Besides the obvious Rebel Beef and Phantom nerfs that everyone is talking about. I really feel like VTG needs another readjustment. Drea Swarms have more than doubled between the Denver and Atlanta System opens, With over a Quarter of all Scum lists featuring Drea and VTG spam of some variety. It's not a large of a problem as the two big Meta lists just yet, but I still think it is an issue that should be looked at in July.

7 hours ago, fuzzyalfalfa said:

Besides the obvious Rebel Beef and Phantom nerfs that everyone is talking about. I really feel like VTG needs another readjustment. Drea Swarms have more than doubled between the Denver and Atlanta System opens, With over a Quarter of all Scum lists featuring Drea and VTG spam of some variety. It's not a large of a problem as the two big Meta lists just yet, but I still think it is an issue that should be looked at in July.

Agree. It seems to be the ONLY viable Scum list lately... and that’s not fun

Early July is expected, though given the delay to wave 4 I wouldn't be at all surprised if they put the points changes in with the wave 4 points.

1 hour ago, thespaceinvader said:

Early July is expected, though given the delay to wave 4 I wouldn't be at all surprised if they put the points changes in with the wave 4 points.

Probably accurate, or possibly mid-July just before the next two major events in August but there are still two Opens within the next few weeks ETX/Italy come to mind before end of June. Then of course Spain/France before the end of July.

Their are some archetypes which need to be addressed immediately or I believe FFG May fall into the trap of Wave 8 of 1.0. We’ll see.

I don;t think they will be trying to aim the change for specific events except maybe the start of season 2 of hyper (not that there really IS a season 2 other than the points change, the prizes are reportedy not changing) so when the Opens are is kind of irrelevant.

I'd like to see Vet Turret Gunner (and other effects that are similar, like Rebel Han or Ezra) priced way more aggressively on turret primaries and expensive on front arc ships.

VTG up to 7 (it was originally 😎 8 on front arc primary, down to 4 (currently 6) on turret primaries. Let Lando have it without paying Yion prices, basically. (Rebel Han gunner, for example, maybe down to something like 10/6 or whatever.)

I'm also in the wagon of new points only with wave IV... 😞

Can we get a cheaper Boba too while we're at it? They really slapped him hard in the first adjustment!

I think a lot of the current issues could be fixed with (a very few) slot-based adjustments, such as:

B-Wing Cannons: -2 points

Kihraxz Modifications: -2 points

Guri Sensor: +5 points

4-LOM Sensor: +2 points

Phantom Talents: +2 points

Y-Wing/Scurrg Gunner: +2 points

Leebo Crew: +4 points

Han Illicit: +5 points

Of course they wouldn't have to do all eight of these, but it would allow for much more reasonable pricing on several upgrades and more thematic play if they did at least a couple. They could drop AS a little and it wouldn't be broken on Guri et al, they could drop VTG a little and it wouldn't be as broken on the double-tap ships. They could drop Juke again (and up the Phantom) and they'll still be a little less likely to take it. Jake Brake Han wouldn't really be fixed by this but ID needs an errata anyway. Leebo can take 3PO but he'll be paying a lot more for it than flying solo.

And Talonbane Cobra could come back in a big way, maybe.

10 hours ago, ClassicalMoser said:

And Talonbane Cobra could come back in a big way, maybe.

11 points for hull upgrade, shield upgrade and afterburners... YES PLEASE!

Apparently on the stream they mentioned that point update will be "late June"

2 hours ago, gamblertuba said:

Apparently on the stream they mentioned that point update will be "late June"

Which is good, adjustments are needed. Also by doing this if Wave 4 still hasn't been released by then they'll on need to balance Wave 4 appriorately.

So basically everybody wants Rebels to be returned to theirnold points, plus increase a few other ships like Wedge?

Ir that happens, that's an entire faction gone from the game, again.

1 hour ago, Porkchop Express said:

So basically everybody wants Rebels to be returned to theirnold points, plus increase a few other ships like Wedge?

Ir that happens, that's an entire faction gone from the game, again.

Would it be, though? A standard-ish Wedge/Braylen/Cassian/4th list typically has all the named pilots they want and a decent amount of toys. Even with a generic pilot or two in the mix, I think the list still can be pretty strong. A few tweaks on point costs would mean that listbuilders have to make a few harder choices, not that the archetype is finished. Even with less optimal choices, the list is still above average, I believe.

15 hours ago, ClassicalMoser said:

I think a lot of the current issues could be fixed with (a very few) slot-based adjustments, such as:

B-Wing Cannons: -2 points

Kihraxz Modifications: -2 points

Guri Sensor: +5 points

4-LOM Sensor: +2 points

Phantom Talents: +2 points

Y-Wing/Scurrg Gunner: +2 points

Leebo Crew: +4 points

Han Illicit: +5 points

Of course they wouldn't have to do all eight of these, but it would allow for much more reasonable pricing on several upgrades and more thematic play if they did at least a couple. They could drop AS a little and it wouldn't be broken on Guri et al, they could drop VTG a little and it wouldn't be as broken on the double-tap ships. They could drop Juke again (and up the Phantom) and they'll still be a little less likely to take it. Jake Brake Han wouldn't really be fixed by this but ID needs an errata anyway. Leebo can take 3PO but he'll be paying a lot more for it than flying solo.

And Talonbane Cobra could come back in a big way, maybe.

I understand the impulse, but I'm not sure of this particular application. I dislike that non-issue upgrades for these slots get massive point increases. Crack Shot and Trick Shot Phantoms see a price increase, which means that Juke would still be the only viable Talent pick, even if the total package is more expensive. No one will ever be able to put a 7 point Fire Control System on Guri. Just feels like there'd be a lot of collateral damage.

On top of that, this is already close enough to full-spreadsheet-points enough that there's probably not much simplicity gained this method, rather than naming specific upgrade/pilot combinations to get increased costs.

1 hour ago, Porkchop Express said:

So basically everybody wants Rebels to be returned to theirnold points, plus increase a few other ships like Wedge?

Ir that happens, that's an entire faction gone from the game, again.

As long as phantoms are nerfed as well, bringing rebel beef down a notch won't do anything to hurt the faction.

18 minutes ago, theBitterFig said:

I understand the impulse, but I'm not sure of this particular application. I dislike that non-issue upgrades for these slots get massive point increases. Crack Shot and Trick Shot Phantoms see a price increase, which means that Juke would still be the only viable Talent pick, even if the total package is more expensive. No one will ever be able to put a 7 point Fire Control System on Guri. Just feels like there'd be a lot of collateral damage.

On top of that, this is already close enough to full-spreadsheet-points enough that there's probably not much simplicity gained this method, rather than naming specific upgrade/pilot combinations to get increased costs.

That makes sense, I could imagine FFG would do negative points Kihraxz Modifications and I would like to see something happen to B wing Cannons (lore reasons) but additional points ruin other upgrades of that slot type, your examples prove this point, just another point is Han with anything other then ID, 7 points for Deadmans switch thats a Advanced Proton Torp!