6 minutes ago, Tramp Graphics said:

Yes, it does. Poe lacked the authorization to know the plan. Holdo didn't trust Poe, with good reason . Poe was a maverick a hotshot, who had just been disciplined for disobeying a direct order, an act which cost his entire squadron their lives. Her "leadership" in an of itself was not poor leadership. Poe simply didn't like her. At worst, she wasn't very charismatic. However, that is not an absolute requirement for leadership. One of the US Army's best General's during WWII had th charisma of an ox, namely General George S. Patton. He was a hard-nosed, abrasive SOB, but was a very effective command officer. Holdo was very much like Patton. Yes, she was a hard-nosed shrew, but she knew her job, and her duty. She knew what had to be done, and she did it. She made sure those who did know the plan knew it, and compartmentalized information, passing information on a need to know basis. Poe did not need to know , so she didn't tell him. That is not poor leadership on Holdo's part. You are looking at it from Poe's point of view, not from the actual tactical or strategic perspective. Poe didn't like Holdo, and the feeling was mutual. Holdo also didn't trust Poe because of his previous disobedience.

You asked for someone who was in the military to give his opinion on Holdo's leadership, and "failure" to divulge information to Poe. Well, I am someone who served in the military , and her withholding information from Poe was fully justified from a military, tactical, and strategic standpoint because he did not need to know the plan in order to do his job, and he had just been disciplined for disobeying orders.

Holdo didnt trust poe. And that resulted in Poe mutinying. That is bad leadership. She brought out the worst in Poe. Good leaders bring out the best. not the worst. She made bad leadership decisions. It resulted in her death and the deaths of most of the resistance. Poe's need to know is irrelevant. What is relevant is how her choices caused those under her to behave. If her leadership choices result in a mutiny that is bad leadership. That is regardless of Poe's need to know or discipline or how good the strategy. Leadership is about getting those under you to behave in a desired way. She got those under her to behave in an undesirable way. That is what bad leadership is. Good leaders do what is needed to get those under them to do well. to strive for more, perform better than expected.

To recap Poe didn't need to know. But that is irrelevant to the question of was Holdo a good leader. The strategy was so so. (losing your entire flotilla of capital ships seems like poor strategy to me. especially for no gain.) I would try something else first. But as I keep reiterating strategy is irrelevant to the leadership question. You can have the best strategy ever. If you can't get anyone to do it you will never be a good leader. Poe being disciplined for losing a squadron of bombers. But again that is irrelevant to the leadership question. As leadership is getting those under you to behave in a desired and predictable manner.

3 minutes ago, Daeglan said:

Holdo didnt trust poe. And that resulted in Poe mutinying. That is bad leadership. She brought out the worst in Poe. Good leaders bring out the best. not the worst. She made bad leadership decisions. It resulted in her death and the deaths of most of the resistance. Poe's need to know is irrelevant. What is relevant is how her choices caused those under her to behave. If her leadership choices result in a mutiny that is bad leadership. That is regardless of Poe's need to know or discipline or how good the strategy. Leadership is about getting those under you to behave in a desired way. She got those under her to behave in an undesirable way. That is what bad leadership is. Good leaders do what is needed to get those under them to do well. to strive for more, perform better than expected.

To recap Poe didn't need to know. But that is irrelevant to the question of was Holdo a good leader. The strategy was so so. (losing your entire flotilla of capital ships seems like poor strategy to me. especially for no gain.) I would try something else first. But as I keep reiterating strategy is irrelevant to the leadership question. You can have the best strategy ever. If you can't get anyone to do it you will never be a good leader. Poe being disciplined for losing a squadron of bombers. But again that is irrelevant to the leadership question. As leadership is getting those under you to behave in a desired and predictable manner.

She had no reason to trust Poe, and every reason not to . Poe had just been disciplined for disobeying orders, and in doing so, had gotten his entire squadron killed . He was a hot shot maverick, and a loose cannon . Telling him the whole plan would have been bad leadership, not withholding it. There was also security reasons for not telling him. In the military, information is only given to those who have the security clearance and need to know . Po neither had the clearance, nor the need to know. Ergo, Holdo had no reason to provide him with any information beyond what he specifically needed to know in order to do his job. Poe did not need to know Holdo's plan. The people who needed to know did know, and that was the command staff , of which Poe was not a member. Simply put, if Poe had been in the US military, and pulled what he did, he would have been up for Court Marshall . So, no, it was not Holdo's actions that were the problem. It was Poe's.

8 minutes ago, Tramp Graphics said:

She had no reason to trust Poe, and every reason not to . Poe had just been disciplined for disobeying orders, and in doing so, had gotten his entire squadron killed . He was a hot shot maverick, and a loose cannon . Telling him the whole plan would have been bad leadership, not withholding it. There was also security reasons for not telling him. In the military, information is only given to those who have the security clearance and need to know . Po neither had the clearance, nor the need to know. Ergo, Holdo had no reason to provide him with any information beyond what he specifically needed to know in order to do his job. Poe did not need to know Holdo's plan. The people who needed to know did know, and that was the command staff , of which Poe was not a member. Simply put, if Poe had been in the US military, and pulled what he did, he would have been up for Court Marshall . So, no, it was not Holdo's actions that were the problem. It was Poe's.

Dude you still dont grasp what leadership is. Leadership is getting those under you to behave in a manner you desire. She didnt do that. In fact she effectively rolled a despair on her leadership check because she got them to mutiny instead. EVERYTHING in your post fails to address what leadership is.

I am not talking about the chain of command because it is irrelevant. I am not talking about need to know because it is irrellevant. I am not talking about Poe being a loose cannon because it is irrelevant. None of the things you sited are relevant to leadership ability. Because as I have said leadership is the ability to get those under you to follow your commands. She failed to get Poe to follow her commands. That is bad leadership.

2 minutes ago, Daeglan said:

Dude you still dont grasp what leadership is. Leadership is getting those under you to behave in a manner you desire. She didnt do that. In fact she effectively rolled a despair on her leadership check because she got them to mutiny instead. EVERYTHING in your post fails to address what leadership is.

No, I know exactly what leadership is, particularly from a military standpoint . That is because I served in the military and actually went to war . Military leadership does not mean being nice to your subordinates, or telling them everything they want to know. On the contrary. Often times it entails making them hate your guts . What's important is that they have the tools, information, and orders that they need to do their jobs, but only what they absolutely need , nothing more, nothing less.

And I have addressed every "problem" you have with Holdo's command.

• Did Poe need to know Holdo's plan: No.
• Did Holdo have reason to trust Poe with her plan? No.
• Did Holdo have reason not to trust Poe? Yes.
• Why? Poe had just previously disobeyed orders, and gotten his squadron killed in the process. Ergo, Poe was a security risk.

That is not a flaw in Holdo's leadership. That is a flaw in Poe's character . A flaw he needed to overcome , which he eventually did.

You don't get respect from your subordinates by being nice. You get respect from your subordinates by maintaining order and discipline . That's what keeps people alive in combat. Poe got people killed . He was an undisciplined hotshot . Holdo's actions did not get people killed. Poe's actions did. Poe's sending Finn and Rose on that unauthorized mission, which resulted in them recruiting DJ, who betrayed them to the First Order , is what resulted in people getting killed, not Holdo's plan, not Holdo's leadership. It was Poe's disobedience and hotshot, glory-hound attitude . His wanting to be the "hero" .

There's an old saying that was drilled into us in Basic Training. "'Hero's' get soldiers killed. " In other words, don't try to be a "hero"; don't try to be a glory hound. That will get people killed. Do your job, do it well. Don't be a hot shot. Poe was a hotshot, and it got people killed. That wasn't Holdo's doing. It was Poe's.

You want a good example of good leadership? Watch Heartbreak Ridge , starring Clint Eastwood. USMC Gunnery Sergeant Tom Highway (Eastwood), is far from a "nice" guy. In fact, his troops (all of whom are a bunch of spoiled , undisciplined slackers and troublemakers with bad attitudes , just like Poe's ) start out hating his guts because he's such a hard-nose, just like Holdo. He makes their lives a living H e l l, drills them hard, Their platoon leader was a "nice guy", fresh out of ROTC, 2nd Lieutenant, that no one respected, specifically because he was to nice, and had no experience yet. But in the end, that tough-as-nails attitude, not only wins them over, but it leads them to victory. Contrast that with the Major in charge of their company, who's only in it for the personal glory (Just like Poe), and that of his "pet" platoon.

Now, on the surface , Holdo might appear like the Major, but, in actuality, she's was more like Highway. She wasn't out for personal glory. She was trying to keep the people under her command alive. She was hard-nosed, tough-as-nails, disciplined , and ran a tight ship. She demanded discipline from her subordinates. Poe was more like Mario Van Peeble's character: an undisciplined hotshot who needed to learn discipline and leadership.

27 minutes ago, Tramp Graphics said:

No, I know exactly what leadership is, particularly from a military standpoint . That is because I served in the military and actually went to war . Military leadership does not mean being nice to your subordinates, or telling them everything they want to know. On the contrary. Often times it entails making them hate your guts . What's important is that they have the tools, information, and orders that they need to do their jobs, but only what they absolutely need , nothing more, nothing less.

And I have addressed every "problem" you have with Holdo's command.

• Did Poe need to know Holdo's plan: No.
• Did Holdo have reason to trust Poe with her plan? No.
• Did Holdo have reason not to trust Poe? Yes.
• Why? Poe had just previously disobeyed orders, and gotten his squadron killed in the process. Ergo, Poe was a security risk.

That is not a flaw in Holdo's leadership. That is a flaw in Poe's character . A flaw he needed to overcome , which he eventually did.

You don't get respect from your subordinates by being nice. You get respect from your subordinates by maintaining order and discipline . That's what keeps people alive in combat. Poe got people killed . He was an undisciplined hotshot . Holdo's actions did not get people killed. Poe's actions did. Poe's sending Finn and Rose on that unauthorized mission, which resulted in them recruiting DJ, who betrayed them to the First Order , is what resulted in people getting killed, not Holdo's plan, not Holdo's leadership. It was Poe's disobedience and hotshot, glory-hound attitude . His wanting to be the "hero" .

There's an old saying that was drilled into us in Basic Training. "'Hero's' get soldiers killed. " In other words, don't try to be a "hero"; don't try to be a glory hound. That will get people killed. Do your job, do it well. Don't be a hot shot. Poe was a hotshot, and it got people killed. That wasn't Holdo's doing. It was Poe's.

You want a good example of good leadership? Watch Heartbreak Ridge , starring Clint Eastwood. USMC Gunnery Sergeant Tom Highway (Eastwood), is far from a "nice" guy. In fact, his troops (all of whom are a bunch of spoiled , undisciplined slackers and troublemakers with bad attitudes , just like Poe's ) start out hating his guts because he's such a hard-nose, just like Holdo. He makes their lives a living H e l l, drills them hard, Their platoon leader was a "nice guy", fresh out of ROTC, 2nd Lieutenant, that no one respected, specifically because he was to nice, and had no experience yet. But in the end, that tough-as-nails attitude, not only wins them over, but it leads them to victory. Contrast that with the Major in charge of their company, who's only in it for the personal glory (Just like Poe), and that of his "pet" platoon.

Now, on the surface , Holdo might appear like the Major, but, in actuality, she's was more like Highway. She wasn't out for personal glory. She was trying to keep the people under her command alive. She was hard-nosed, tough-as-nails, disciplined , and ran a tight ship. She demanded discipline from her subordinates. Poe was more like Mario Van Peeble's character: an undisciplined hotshot who needed to learn discipline and leadership.

And you completely missed my point. I never said it had anything to do with being nice. I said it had to do with getting your people under your command to do what you want them to do. A good leader can do that. A bad leader will get people to reject your commands. Leadership is a 2 way street which is why they have leadership classes for officers. Because if you just rely on the chain of command to force your commands on others you are going to have a bad time.

Daeglan, is everything alright in your life? Do you need some help line numbers?

2 minutes ago, Stan Fresh said:

Daeglan, is everything alright in your life? Do you need some help line numbers?

Why you have issues?

1 minute ago, Daeglan said:

Why you have issues?

That right there is a sign of what I'm asking about.

1 hour ago, Stan Fresh said:

That right there is a sign of what I'm asking about.

Only if.you project your emotions on me.

It would be a very rare leader who could inspire loyalty in that amount of time.

In analysing what happened and the characters involved it is important to consider the narrative involved. This storyline was about Poe learning about strategy over tactics, trusting the chain of command, and knowing when to lose the battle. In the meta, it was a reversal of the traditional movie trope of the hero winning because they ignore the rules. As Tramp points out, this is the real world.

The entire movie is about reversing expectations, which can make it uncomfortable viewing (I enjoyed it much more the second time when I could appreciate everything other than the surprises).

Holdo’s role in the story was to be the new leader that the hotshot protagonist doesn’t trust. In a traditional movie he would be right and end a hero. However, this movie overturns tropes.

On their first meeting, Poe has heard of her great victory, but does not know her. Probably the rebel cell structure which still seems to be in operation explains that. We don’t know why he doesn’t think she meets his expectations. Depending on viewer either being a woman or the evening gown. Deliberately made unclear to allow people to bring their own narrative I suspect.

Regarding leadership I have encountered two good ones (in larp). One was the type that is in the thick of the fighting and leads from the front who you would follow anywhere. The other had strategy and low cunning and you would want behind you overseeing everything. The former probably needs one battle before you would follow them, the second maybe more. Holdo has zero before Poe goes rogue.

But her only real role is to be the person who isn’t trusted by our viewpoint protagonist. We are also excluded from the plans, so we also have little reason to trust her. In fact we might have less reason than Poe, as we know nothing of her past victory and he does.

The whole point of this storyline is that Poe learns from his mistakes. Therefore he has to make mistakes!

Personally I was reminded of the early Babylon Five episode where Sinclair chases down a destructive alien single handed in Kirk fashion, then gets chewed out by Garibaldi for having a death wish. The traditional hero story shown to be the risky, foolish endeavour that it so often is in reality.

On 6/5/2019 at 7:19 PM, Daeglan said:

Well given the main characters are Poe, Rey, Finn, BB-8 and possibly Rose. I dont think there would have been an issue. And Farscape did just fine having several non humans as main characters. For example people did just fine having empathy with Rigel. So that so called Loss of signal is not as big of an issue as you make it out to be.

BB8 isn't a main character. He's comic relief.
Aliens and robots can be main characters, if they have been designed to be main characters. Phsically, I mean. the actual masks, make-up, puppet... has to be designed to be a main character, to be capable of a wide range of emotions. All the non-human and non-actor Farscape characters, as well as Empire's muppet Yoda, for a Star Wars example, have been designed to be this.
Ackbar? He's a rubber mask and is capable of one emotion at best. To make him work as a real main character, you'd have to completely redesign him, and we all know how fans react to that sort of thing. Some fans are still sore about when Lucas did it to Prequel Yoda.

Also, the entire point of Holdo being a new character instead of Leia was that the entire thing doesn't work if Holdo is an established character who we know. She has to be an unknown factor.

Quote

And you completely missed my point. I never said it had anything to do with being nice. I said it had to do with getting your people under your command to do what you want them to do. A good leader can do that. A bad leader will get people to reject your commands. Leadership is a 2 way street which is why they have leadership classes for officers. Because if you just rely on the chain of command to force your commands on others you are going to have a bad time.

And still, Poe should have been walked out of the airlock for mutiny and disobeying orders during wartime.

Everything he did in this movie was outright wrong, no excuses.

Yeah , agree. How Poe got to be where he was in the command structure with such a lack of discipline I have no idea, that's the only confusing part. Just because you get results from taking risks, does not make you a candidate for being a leader

I'd like to add that while Poe clearly didn't like Holdo, the same cannot be said for Holdo not liking Poe. That much is unclear in the film, and later on she does say she likes him., Again though both Leia and Holdo , I think, see the potential but not the discipline needed for being a leader. It is clear to me that Leia has at least discussed more about Poe to Holdo than Holdo let's on

1 hour ago, dreenan said:

And still, Poe should have been walked out of the airlock for mutiny and disobeying orders during wartime.

Everything he did in this movie was outright wrong, no excuses.

Thats the other thing. Poes behavior in the openning is weird and out of character from what was established in the first movie

It’s so easy to judge a character’s actions from an omniscient point of view...

There is absolutely nothing that could have told Holdo that Poe would go as far as starting a mutiny. From her point of view, he’s very undisciplined (just got demoted by Leia herself. Is a demotion a common practice in military?) but still very loyal to the Resistance. From her point of view, since they are being tracked by the First Order, there is a possibility that there is a spy aboard, so the less people that knows the plan, the less risky it is that it leaks to the enemy (spoiler alert: it did).

Bottom line is, he didn’t need to know the plan so she didn’t tell him. Would she had known all the consequences, she would probably have handled things differently. But since she doesn’t had this luxury (like we do now), I think she made the right call with the informations she had under the circumstances.

What does this argument really come down to?

From what I can see Daeglan thinks Holdo's decisions (and Poe's and others) are so bad and/or uncharacteristic and/or unrealistic that it breaks the immersion and enjoyment for him.

Others don't have that experience.

Peoples subjective (enjoyment/immersion) interpretation of the facts (what happens on screen) is what it is.

Arguing the details of the scenario is not going to move anyone on this.