26 minutes ago, Stan Fresh said:

I'm just glad to have learned that some guy in a fish mask is as capable of engaging an audience as Laura Dern. Truly an insight for the ages.

Laura Dern played a terrible character who was so bad at leadership she caused her best pilot to mutiny and commited suicide to save the crew she doomed to die. I qould have prefered the guy in a fish mask who didnt make stupid decisions for plot reasons.

It's like you're conditioned. Mention a woman and you go off on some unrelated tirade of lies barely hiding the misogyny at the core.

28 minutes ago, Stan Fresh said:

It's like you're conditioned. Mention a woman and you go off on some unrelated tirade of lies barely hiding the misogyny at the core.

It is like your conditioned. Mention terrible decisions made for stupid plot reasons that literally make no sense at all from a character or leadership point of view and you focus on the sex of the character. The person who brongs up gender is the sexist. Not the person talking about the story problems. Try focusing on something other than gender.

2 minutes ago, Daeglan said:

It is like your conditioned. Mention terrible decisions made for stupid plot reasons that literally make no sense at all from a character or leadership point of view and you focus on the sex of the character. The person who brongs up gender is the sexist. Not the person talking about the story problems. Try focusing on something other than gender.

The real sexists are people who point out your sexism, sure.

1 minute ago, Stan Fresh said:

The real sexists are people who point out your sexism, sure.

Because judging characters by their actions is sexist. Right. MLK made a speech about that. He wouldnt agree with you.

But then The last jedi is literally a series of bad decisions made by characters for plot reasons that make no sense from the characters point of view. Luke who literally sacrificed himself to save his father. He is gonna murder his nephew? I dont buy it. Leia is gonna have the whole fleet jump to the same place? I that is not how rebels did things why is she not using proven tactics? Why would Ackbar alliw it? How does Poe not know Holdo? Why is the First Order not sending fighters to finish off the resistance? Why does Rose not tell Holdo about the tracking? Why does Poe not tell Holdo about the tracking? Why does Poe call Maz? Dont the resistance have slicers?

4 minutes ago, Daeglan said:

MLK made     a speech about  that.   He wouldnt agree with you. 

Your posts here are a singularity of cringe.

15 minutes ago, Stan Fresh said:

Your posts here are a singularity of cringe.

You are the one focusing on gender. Try discussing the actions of the character. I managed to do it. I am sure you are capable it. But doing so does require being adult enough to recognize a person is more than their gender and that you can discuss the actions a character made with out disparaging their gender. Because a character's gender should be irrelevant. Just like their skin color and sexual orientation should be irrelevant. MLKs point of his i have a dream speech was for people to judge others by the content of their character. Beimg outraged because you cant seperate the actions from the superficial parts of a person is moving in the wrong direction.

Go on.

9 minutes ago, Stan Fresh said:

Go on.

I already did at the beginning. Im not retypung it. Ypu wanna discuss the actions the character made start there.

It must be something with the visual medium of the games that makes human/human-like a prerequisite for lead characters. Tabletop games have been a bit different. WEG made their game default to human PCs, but aliens and droids were still options. In both FFG and the WotC vertions of SW RPG, many weird aliens are presented for PC use. OTOH, while a game like TOR gives you a bunch of options, most of them are very human-like in appearance, and even the Cathar and Togruta are close enough to be considered "pretty faces" compared to Wookiees, Gand, Trandoshans, Rodians, and many of the others we've seen played in tabletop.

I do think that a Wookiee character could work fine in a 1st person RPG like Fallout. You would select what you say from a written menu (in whatever real world language you're playing in, but likely English) and then you'd hear it in Wookiee-speak. Having NPC Wookiees do the same with subtitled responses wouldn't be that hard. I think the game might break down if it were 3rd person, as people might not like watching jiggly Wookiee butt for hours on end as they run from place to place.

When you play a weird-looking alien in a tabletop RPG, you're not limited by a fish mask or heavy facial prosthetics or fake teeth. You get to use your face and your body and your voice the same as the person playing a human or a Chiss. You can also deliver emotionally complex or exposition-laden dialogue with your regular voice instead of as near-constant subtitles that distract from the action on screen.

Theater of the mind and prose are probably the best media for this sort of thing.

21 hours ago, Daeglan said:

I think you are overcomplicating it and making bad assumptions about the average person. Given how popular scifi is these days i dont think itnis the issue you makenit out to be

Well I don't really see the overcomplicating thing but ok. Also I would say that this is certainly my impression and I don't think it is 100% accurate but I also would challenge you to explore that viewpoint a bit because I think you will find it bears out when you also factor in people who do not consume role-playing games and all of the material that is extra-cinema in nature. I base my observations on the whole audience as this thread was about George's views on the setting as a filmmaker. What I am saying does not apply as strongly to RPG play, as most people have a very casual approach that is not at all trying to be like the movies and accepts all information with the Star Wars logo attached to it as useful.

2 hours ago, Stan Fresh said:

When you play a weird-looking alien in a tabletop RPG, you're not limited by a fish mask or heavy facial prosthetics or fake teeth. You get to use your face and your body and your voice the same as the person playing a human or a Chiss. You can also deliver emotionally complex or exposition-laden dialogue with your regular voice instead of as near-constant subtitles that distract from the action on screen.

Theater of the mind and prose are probably the best media for this sort of thing.

Having done both online/voice-chat games and at-the-table games, this is very much true.

A lot of character nuance is lost when not everyone is in the same room around the same table, especially if you're not really all that familiar with the other players. And even if you are familiar with the other players, there's still very high chances of misreading things because you don't have the extra elements of expression and body language to work from.

Plus, for small groups of individuals, such as your typical gaming group, it's quite easy to get buy-in that one player is a guy with a fish for a head while another is playing a walking carpet that only communicates in grunts, roars, and howls, and that both of these can be central members of the cast and be taken seriously for it. For larger projects such as TV shows and movies, getting that buy-in is much more difficult, and the chances of the work being seen as farce increases dramatically.

12 hours ago, Daeglan said:

Laura Dern played a terrible character who was so bad at leadership she caused her best pilot to mutiny and commited suicide to save the crew she doomed to die. I qould have prefered the guy in a fish mask who didnt make stupid decisions for plot reasons.

Her character was the leader, and there was a plan in place. A plan that very well would have worked and would have saved a ton of lives while giving the First Order a false sense of security and a belief that they had crushed the Resistance. The problem wasn't her, but her crew that constantly disobeyed direct orders from superiors while taking matters into their own hands and causing problems. They are part of a military group. Following orders is par for the course. Poe didn't have the right or rank to question her. Neither did Finn and Rose. Had Poe, Finn, and Rose simply listened to and followed the commands from their superiors, lives would have been saved, and no suicide assault would have been required.

A military leader has no requirement to discuss the details of their plans with their troops, especially troops that had been recently demoted for failing to follow orders. In fact in many cases, discussing said plans could put those plans at risk if there were spies in place among the resistance, or if a resistance member was captured and tortured.

The massive loss of lives in Ep 8 rests on the shoulders of Poe and Finn, not Holdo. Leia and Holdo's plan would have saved basically everyone in their fleet. Due to Poe, Finn, and Rose, they are reduced to a small enough number to fit on a light freighter.

7 minutes ago, kmanweiss said:

Her character was the leader, and there was a plan in place. A plan that very well would have worked and would have saved a ton of lives while giving the First Order a false sense of security and a belief that they had crushed the Resistance. The problem wasn't her, but her crew that constantly disobeyed direct orders from superiors while taking matters into their own hands and causing problems. They are part of a military group. Following orders is par for the course. Poe didn't have the right or rank to question her. Neither did Finn and Rose. Had Poe, Finn, and Rose simply listened to and followed the commands from their superiors, lives would have been saved, and no suicide assault would have been required.

A military leader has no requirement to discuss the details of their plans with their troops, especially troops that had been recently demoted for failing to follow orders. In fact in many cases, discussing said plans could put those plans at risk if there were spies in place among the resistance, or if a resistance member was captured and tortured.

The massive loss of lives in Ep 8 rests on the shoulders of Poe and Finn, not Holdo. Leia and Holdo's plan would have saved basically everyone in their fleet. Due to Poe, Finn, and Rose, they are reduced to a small enough number to fit on a light freighter.

Her character was written as an arrogant jerk who insults her subordinates and keeps them in the dark resulting in a mutiny that gets most of the fleet killed, Not to mention her plan basically was to sacrifice the entire fleet. And I am gonna go out on a limb and guess you have never asked someone in the military what they thought of Admiral Holdo. did. They said she comes off like a petty, imperious person of royalty who is unused to being questioned nor does she tolerate questions from underlings. Which is a terrible leadership style, because you've not only have you alienated your key people(Like your best pilot) you've created an information vacuum which is near criminal at any level. "I won't tell you because you don't need to know" is movie bull. And as my friend says it is unfortunate that she is written this way. She didn't need to be.

1 hour ago, Daeglan said:

Her character was written as an arrogant jerk who insults her subordinates and keeps them in the dark resulting in a mutiny that gets most of the fleet killed, Not to mention her plan basically was to sacrifice the entire fleet. And I am gonna go out on a limb and guess you have never asked someone in the military what they thought of Admiral Holdo. did. They said she comes off like a petty, imperious person of royalty who is unused to being questioned nor does she tolerate questions from underlings. Which is a terrible leadership style, because you've not only have you alienated your key people(Like your best pilot) you've created an information vacuum which is near criminal at any level. "I won't tell you because you don't need to know" is movie bull. And as my friend says it is unfortunate that she is written this way. She didn't need to be.

As someone who was in the military (US Army, Desert Storm) Holdo's plan itself was sound, and could very well have succeeded if everyone had followed orders, or had they not been betrayed by DJ. Holdo's flaw was that she wasn't very likable as a person.

2 minutes ago, Tramp Graphics said:

As someone who was in the military (US Army, Desert Storm) Holdo's plan itself was sound, and could very well have succeeded if everyone had followed orders, or had they not been betrayed by DJ. Holdo's flaw was that she wasn't very likable as a person.

Which wouldn't have happened had she not behave like an imperialistic jerkwad who kept the plan to herself resulting in mutiny. Basically DJ wouldn't have happened if Holdo hadn't alienated her people and caused a mutiny.

Some of the best non--humans we've seen for showing emotions came from the prequels. Jar Jar (even if I don't like the character), the Neimoidians, and the four-armed bird diner guy. All of them were computer generated, so I'd imagine that could carry over into video game characters.

In Clone Wars we got Cad Bane and Embo. We got Hondo too, but they really humanized him compared to what I've long believed about Weequay. Rebels gave us Zeb, and much like the aliens from E1, apparently a strong accent makes the alien.

10 minutes ago, Daeglan said:

Which wouldn't have happened had she not behave like an imperialistic jerkwad who kept the plan to herself resulting in mutiny. Basically DJ wouldn't have happened if Holdo hadn't alienated her people and caused a mutiny.

Holdo relied entirely on the formal authority of her position because she lacked informal authority from bonds with her followers. That's the mark of an ineffective leader.

6 minutes ago, HappyDaze said:

Holdo relied entirely on the formal authority of her position because she lacked informal authority from bonds with her followers. That's the mark of an ineffective leader.

Or at least those through whose viewpoint we saw her in the Movie.

12 minutes ago, Daeglan said:

Which wouldn't have happened had she not behave like an imperialistic jerkwad who kept the plan to herself resulting in mutiny. Basically DJ wouldn't have happened if Holdo hadn't alienated her people and caused a mutiny.

As I said, her only flaw was that she wasn't likable as a person . Here's the kicker: I've known several officers and NCO's just like her . Officers and NCOs who were just as much of a "jerk" as she appeared to be. In fact, one of my drill sergeants in basic training was had such a "short guy complex" that even the other Drill instructors disliked him . Regardless, of how likable or unlikable she was as a person, her actual plan was sound from a military standpoint, and Poe didn't have the right to undermine that. Had Poe, Finn and Rose not gone off on their unauthorized mission, or attempted mutiny, or DJ had not betrayed them, the majority of the Resistance fleet personnel would have survived and escaped . This was not a flaw in Holdo's planning. It was the fault of Poe and his compatriots disobeying lawful orders .

24 minutes ago, Tramp Graphics said:

As I said, her only flaw was that she wasn't likable as a person . Here's the kicker: I've known several officers and NCO's just like her . Officers and NCOs who were just as much of a "jerk" as she appeared to be. In fact, one of my drill sergeants in basic training was had such a "short guy complex" that even the other Drill instructors disliked him . Regardless, of how likable or unlikable she was as a person, her actual plan was sound from a military standpoint, and Poe didn't have the right to undermine that. Had Poe, Finn and Rose not gone off on their unauthorized mission, or attempted mutiny, or DJ had not betrayed them, the majority of the Resistance fleet personnel would have survived and escaped . This was not a flaw in Holdo's planning. It was the fault of Poe and his compatriots disobeying lawful orders .

Problem is by keeping him in the dark she left him with she is going to get us all killed. So yeah I cant imagine why anyone would want to undermine that plan. It is a flaw in her leadership ability. Her bad leadership resulted in her underlings undermining her plans that she kept them in the dark about. Which resulted in most of the resistance dying. Which all could have been prevented had she actually lead as opposed to keeping people in the dark.

9 minutes ago, Daeglan said:

Problem is by keeping him in the dark she left him with she is going to get us all killed. So yeah I cant imagine why anyone would want to undermine that plan. It is a flaw in her leadership ability. Her bad leadership resulted in her underlings undermining her plans that she kept them in the dark about. Which resulted in most of the resistance dying. Which all could have been prevented had she actually lead as opposed to keeping people in the dark.

She had no reason nor requirement to tell him the plan. He didn't have the authorization to know the plan. Do you think my Company commander told me every plan during the war? No. I was just a lowly E-3 RATT Rig operator. I only needed to know enough, within my security clearance, to do my job. Do you think the Battalion commander told my Company commander everything? OF course not. She was only told what she was authorized to know in order for our unit to complete our part of the overall mission. Once he was demoted, Poe lost the authorization to know All of the details of what's going on. He was only authorized to know what Holdo chose to tell him for him to accomplish his specific mission, nothing more . He was not authorized to know everything. And the very fact that he had just been disciplined for disobeying a direct order not too long prior, means that Holdo had no reason to trust giving him more information than absolutely necessary for him to do his specific job.

Just now, Tramp Graphics said:

She had no reason nor requirement to tell him the plan. He didn't have the authorization to know the plan. Do you think my Company commander told me every plan during the war? No. I was just a lowly E-3 RATT Rig operator. I only needed to know enough, within my security clearance, to do my job. Do you think the Battalion commander told my Company commander everything? OF course not. She was only told what she was authorized to know in order for our unit to complete our part of the overall mission. Once he was demoted, Poe lost the authorization to know All of the details of what's going on. He was only authorized to know what Holdo chose to tell him for him to accomplish his specific mission, nothing more . He was not authorized to know everything. And the very fact that he had just been disciplined for disobeying a direct order not too long prior, means that Holdo had no reason to trust giving him more information than absolutely necessary for him to do his specific job.

That DOES NOT CHANGE HER BAD LEADERSHIP.

15 minutes ago, Daeglan said:

That DOES NOT CHANGE HER BAD LEADERSHIP.

Yes, it does. Poe lacked the authorization to know the plan. Holdo didn't trust Poe, with good reason . Poe was a maverick a hotshot, who had just been disciplined for disobeying a direct order, an act which cost his entire squadron their lives. Her "leadership" in an of itself was not poor leadership. Poe simply didn't like her. At worst, she wasn't very charismatic. However, that is not an absolute requirement for leadership. One of the US Army's best General's during WWII had th charisma of an ox, namely General George S. Patton. He was a hard-nosed, abrasive SOB, but was a very effective command officer. Holdo was very much like Patton. Yes, she was a hard-nosed shrew, but she knew her job, and her duty. She knew what had to be done, and she did it. She made sure those who did know the plan knew it, and compartmentalized information, passing information on a need to know basis. Poe did not need to know , so she didn't tell him. That is not poor leadership on Holdo's part. You are looking at it from Poe's point of view, not from the actual tactical or strategic perspective. Poe didn't like Holdo, and the feeling was mutual. Holdo also didn't trust Poe because of his previous disobedience.

You asked for someone who was in the military to give his opinion on Holdo's leadership, and "failure" to divulge information to Poe. Well, I am someone who served in the military , and her withholding information from Poe was fully justified from a military, tactical, and strategic standpoint because he did not need to know the plan in order to do his job, and he had just been disciplined for disobeying orders.