Just now, Archlyte said:

Also I think maybe Farscape and Star Wars are apples to oranges in some respects because I watched a little of Farscape and while you may have found it engaging I would not compare it to the effect that Star Wars had on audiences. Just because a series on Sci-Fi had a fanbase does not really compare with the cultural phenomenon of Star Wars and how it affected people. I would argue that one of the reasons for this were the human characters.

The Aliens and Droids are certainly an interesting addition and they make the setting what it is, but objectively you cannot argue that the protagonists are human. So I am saying that the non-humans are valid characters but they can't carry the weight of the story and still have it be Star Wars. It would be something else.

Why not? Seems lazy to just rule out aliens. I mean we have Chewie in the OT and people did just fine with him. In Fact Chewie has ALWAYS been a fan favorite. Which to me says that a rather large part of the Fan Base disagrees with your assessment. Why limit your self needlessly when we can clearly get all the body language cues we need.

I don't know that non-human characters can't carry a film/series/game or that it's just they haven't been given a chance.

The same once applied to the belief that women and PoC couldn't carry a film/series/game. There is no doubt that they face some added challenges in the eyes of some viewers, but that doesn't mean they can't succeed. Sigourney Weaver and Will Smith both broke several walls.

Now non-humans don't figure into the representation politics (unless there are some that really want to be nonhuman...) but they also don't play against it.

1 minute ago, HappyDaze said:

I don't know that non-human characters can't carry a film/series/game or that it's just they haven't been given a chance.

The same once applied to the belief that women and PoC couldn't carry a film/series/game. There is no doubt that they face some added challenges in the eyes of some viewers, but that doesn't mean they can't succeed. Sigourney Weaver and Will Smith both broke several walls.

Now non-humans don't figure into the representation politics (unless there are some that really want to be nonhuman...) but they also don't play against it.

I agree. And Farscape had many seasons and had many episodes that centered around the Alien members of the crew. So if it didnt work why was the series so successful? I just dont buy the claim that aliens cant carry a show.

31 minutes ago, Daeglan said:

Why not? Seems lazy to just rule out aliens. I mean we have Chewie in the OT and people did just fine with him. In Fact Chewie has ALWAYS been a fan favorite. Which to me says that a rather large part of the Fan Base disagrees with your assessment. Why limit your self needlessly when we can clearly get all the body language cues we need.

I don't think that was my point at all. I didn't say the writers should have worked harder and put Aliens in as the main protagonists. But hey if you don't see it that's fine. A large part of the fan base does agree with you I can cede that, but to me they don't discern on much anyway so it's par for the course.

Just now, Archlyte said:

I don't think that was my point at all. I didn't say the writers should have worked harder and put Aliens in as the main protagonists. But hey if you don't see it that's fine. A large part of the fan base does agree with you I can cede that, but to me they don't discern on much anyway so it's par for the course.

What is that supposed to mean?

10 minutes ago, HappyDaze said:

I don't know that non-human characters can't carry a film/series/game or that it's just they haven't been given a chance.

The same once applied to the belief that women and PoC couldn't carry a film/series/game. There is no doubt that they face some added challenges in the eyes of some viewers, but that doesn't mean they can't succeed. Sigourney Weaver and Will Smith both broke several walls.

Now non-humans don't figure into the representation politics (unless there are some that really want to be nonhuman...) but they also don't play against it.

Well this is true that is hasn't been tried but my point is that it will be more clunky and won't translate across like the human characters do.

Just now, Archlyte said:

Well this is true that is hasn't been tried but my point is that it will be more clunky and won't translate across like the human characters do.

Except is has been done successfully on Farscape for several seasons and movies. I will admit it is harder to do. And Even in Star Wars they had a few. And while they are harder to do they are doable.

The Farscape aliens aren't the main characters. John is the lead and the viewpoint character, and the aliens exist to serve his story. They're there for contrast.

Farscape doesn't do what you claim it does.

1 hour ago, Daeglan said:

Except is has been done successfully on Farscape for several seasons and movies. I will admit it is harder to do. And Even in Star Wars they had a few. And while they are harder to do they are doable.

Star Wars had the Ewok movies along with the Ewoks and Droids cartoon series. When animation is the medium, modern shows have gone well away from needing human or even human-like lead characters. My Little Pony does perfectly fine without humans in the lead.

1 hour ago, Stan Fresh said:

The Farscape aliens aren't the main characters. John is the lead and the viewpoint character, and the aliens exist to serve his story. They're there for contrast.

Farscape doesn't do what you claim it does.

While yes the protagonist is John, that does not mean the other characters are not main characters.

And, of course there's the original G1 Transformers movie from 1986. The entire main cast was made up of mechanoids.

1 hour ago, Daeglan said:

While yes the protagonist is John, that does not mean the other characters are not main characters.

Ok maybe I need to parse this better. Protagonists. If you just want characters for a light story that is only going to engage nerds and kids then yes, by all means use donkey-headed phallasoids from planet mung. In 1977 a movie came out that had really wide appeal while also being able to deliver a rich impression of a setting that was deep without being dumb. In the intervening years people who are less discerning have remedied that by filling in every possible implied concept with what are suppositions of dubious design, that in many cases actually destroy the source material by defining it poorly. Often with little or no concern for the ripples. From this posture comes the idea that all characters are equal. This is just not the case as I see it because Aliens can give an impression of strangeness and imagination, while Humans can deliver the goods where the human condition is concerned.

I'm not saying that the audience cannot enjoy the aliens and connect with them on some level, but there is a psychological division between the character and the audience because they are aliens. If you remove their alien-ness to make them ultimately relatable then they are just a funny looking person, and at that point I think they become kind of pointless.

39 minutes ago, Archlyte said:

Ok maybe I need to parse this better. Protagonists. If you just want characters for a light story that is only going to engage nerds and kids then yes, by all means use donkey-headed phallasoids from planet mung. In 1977 a movie came out that had really wide appeal while also being able to deliver a rich impression of a setting that was deep without being dumb. In the intervening years people who are less discerning have remedied that by filling in every possible implied concept with what are suppositions of dubious design, that in many cases actually destroy the source material by defining it poorly. Often with little or no concern for the ripples. From this posture comes the idea that all characters are equal. This is just not the case as I see it because Aliens can give an impression of strangeness and imagination, while Humans can deliver the goods where the human condition is concerned.

I'm not saying that the audience cannot enjoy the aliens and connect with them on some level, but there is a psychological division between the character and the audience because they are aliens. If you remove their alien-ness to make them ultimately relatable then they are just a funny looking person, and at that point I think they become kind of pointless.

I think you are overcomplicating it and making bad assumptions about the average person. Given how popular scifi is these days i dont think itnis the issue you makenit out to be

6 hours ago, Daeglan said:

While yes the protagonist is John, that does not mean the other characters are not main characters.

They all exist to serve his story. Farscape is about a (relatively) normal guy being thrown into a wild sci-fi world.

Even in Farscape there aren't episodes that are all-puppet. There's always a human nearby to give it reality with their own reactions.

1 hour ago, Stan Fresh said:

They all exist to serve his story. Farscape is about a (relatively) normal guy being thrown into a wild sci-fi world.

Even in Farscape there aren't episodes that are all-puppet. There's always a human nearby to give it reality with their own reactions.

So does EVERY Character. Every character serves the story.

2 minutes ago, Daeglan said:

So does EVERY Character. Every character serves the story.

I said his story, not the story.

Try again.

8 minutes ago, Stan Fresh said:

I said his story, not the story.

Try again.

Yes. And his story is not the only story. So they all serve THE Story. Because every character had a story and how those stories interacted was THE STORY. It was a character driven story. So while John was the Protagonist Or the lens the viewers see things through, that does not mean the other Main Characters are not important. In fact they are very important. As with out them there is nothing to interact with and no Story.

6 minutes ago, Daeglan said:

Yes. And his story is not the only story. So they all serve THE Story. Because every character had a story and how those stories interacted was THE STORY. It was a character driven story. So while John was the Protagonist Or the lens the viewers see things through, that does not mean the other Main Characters are not important. In fact they are very important. As with out them there is nothing to interact with and no Story.

Now you're just free-associating.

Farscape was the story of a human thrown into a wild SF universe. Everything that happened came back to that. The story starts with wormholes and ends with wormholes - and that's John's story, not anyone else's.

Soooo With out the other characters there is NO STORY. Stop ignoring that.

1 minute ago, Daeglan said:

Soooo With out the other characters there is NO STORY. Stop ignoring that.

Now you're getting it - they exist to facilitate John's story.

And yet their stories ARE important. Because without their stories there is NO Story. John acting by himself is boring. John interacting with with other characters with out their own stories is boring. Farscape is a character driven show.

9 minutes ago, Daeglan said:

And yet their stories ARE important. Because without their stories there is NO Story. John acting by himself is boring. John interacting with with other characters with out their own stories is boring. Farscape is a character driven show.

They can be important; that doesn't change that it's his story, the story of a human. Not a puppet. Not a Fish Mask Guy.

It all boils down to Farscape not.being what you're claiming it to be.

2 minutes ago, Stan Fresh said:

They can be important; that doesn't change that it's his story, the story of a human. Not a puppet. Not a Fish Mask Guy.

It all boils down to Farscape not.being what you're claiming it to be.

It boils down to you dont get it. It is an Ensemble cast where they are ALL important because there is no story with out all of them. The only thing special about John is he is the protagonist. He is the anchor. but there is NO STORY without everyone else. And the show was character driven and pretty regularly the story was driven by characters other than John. Because they were just as important as John.

You can laugh but it doesn't change the reality that a character driven story that is driven by all the characters means all the characters are important. The story is how all of their stories weave together. Which by the way is how a Role playing games story should work as well.

I'm just glad to have learned that some guy in a fish mask is as capable of engaging an audience as Laura Dern. Truly an insight for the ages.