3 minutes ago, HappyDaze said:

This problem shows up in all of the Start Wars films and the cartoons too. Maul surviving bisection and helicopter lightsabers along with the time travel between the worlds crap...

Oddly it's why I like the Old Republic stuff. They obviously had to present their ideas and get approval from someone beyond the creative team. They're certainly not perfect, but they are more internally consistent than the films or TV stuff.

I dont actually mind Maul surviving a bisection. It fixes what shouldnt have happened in the Phantom Menace. Maul was wasted by killing him in the Phantom Menace. He should have died in Attack of the Clones. Leading to Dooku being brought in. But the way it is now is a lot better.

22 hours ago, Daeglan said:

I dont actually mind Maul surviving a bisection. It fixes what shouldnt have happened in the Phantom Menace. Maul was wasted by killing him in the Phantom Menace. He should have died in Attack of the Clones. Leading to Dooku being brought in. But the way it is now is a lot better.

Yeah, I loved the whole Maul story arc. I felt it was a throw back to Sion from Kotor 2, and the whole "hate and anger" keep me alive schtick.

On 6/3/2019 at 10:28 AM, Ghostofman said:

I recall an article about the fall of LucasArts. There were a pair of anecdotes where the staff on a game's development were briefing George.

They're briefing him on... some game, I want to say Maul, and get partway in, when George gets up, and walks over to a display shelf of Star Wars stuff. He picks up a Maul figure, and a Talon figure, holds them up in front of everyone and says: "These two are friends." Then it talked about how long it took them after to talk him out of it and to get him back on track.

The other.... They're doing an update on 1313, after the demo video had dropped, the game was well into production, and a good amount playable. He stops them part way through and says. "I think this game should be about Boba Fett." They couldn't talk him down and ended up reworking it into Fett until they got cancelled.

To be fair, I've worked with enough high level exec types like that to confirm you need to be careful, as many can be "idea fairies" if you let their minds wander. But George's position both as head of the company and as the creative core of the franchise made his level of idea fairyness especially dangerous. One stray action figure left out as a decoration and you could lose months or years of work to "Oh, this guy looks cool, lets make it about him. Also he's a Jedi now and that's all there is to it."

It's interesting that when George is contained and directed he is at his best, but he became a crazy King. The anecdotes you wrote about demonstrate to me the main point: George isn't an RPG or Book nerd who needs the physics of the setting to remain constant. If George thinks something is amusing he is gonna do it, no matter what. Similarly much of the extraneous material is made using the same abandon. Countless paperbacks and old video games are an embarrassing reminder of what happens when 1st draft thinking makes it to the finished product.

George, the EU authors/New Canon Authors, Game Designers, and Writers need to heed this guy's advice

Then there are things like the Force Unleashed people pitching a Wookiee protagonist as the star of the game and him having to explain to them that you can't tell a dramatic story with such a protagonist.

And clearly Lucas is not a first draft kinda guy. There are vast swathes of material documenting the many revisions and edits SW has gone through - movies, games, novels, reference books, etc.

Lots of fan entitlement and outright fabrications being spewed forth in this thread.

36 minutes ago, Stan Fresh said:

Then there are things like the Force Unleashed people pitching a Wookiee protagonist as the star of the game and him having to explain to them that you can't tell a dramatic story with such a protagonist.

And clearly Lucas is not a first draft kinda guy. There are vast swathes of material documenting the many revisions and edits SW has gone through - movies, games, novels, reference books, etc.

Lots of fan entitlement and outright fabrications being spewed forth in this thread.

I don't mean that it is literally the first draft. I just mean that it sucks.

18 minutes ago, Archlyte said:

I don't mean that it is literally the first draft. I just mean that it sucks.

Convenient.

I know Mr. Lucas is a good world builder but IMO he isn't a particularly good film maker. The best films he did were when he collaborated, for some more evidence of this outside the prequels have a look at the video how Star Wars was saved in the edit on youtube. Prior to this the film apparently sucked real bad.

His wife at the time who did much of that work isn't even on the credits any more.

10 hours ago, Stan Fresh said:

Then there are things like the Force Unleashed people pitching a Wookiee protagonist as the star of the game and him having to explain to them that you can't tell a dramatic story with such a protagonist.

Because of the whole "we don't understand what he's saying" thing? Because I think there have been movies where the main character says nothing, and their role is all physical type acting. Honestly these days I think you could pull that off with a Wookie lead. The acting for Chewie in Solo I felt was pretty good, even though you didn't understand him. The expressions, and emotional acting was very well portrayed in my opinion.

So yeah, I'm curious why that wouldn't work.

11 hours ago, Stan Fresh said:

Lots of fan entitlement and outright fabrications being spewed forth in this thread.

That can honesty be said for what passes as the Star Wars "fandom" in general these days, much of it rooted in how Star Wars these days is no longer "theirs" and instead open and available to a much broader spectrum of people for any number of increasingly inane reasons.

And lord forbid that someone have the nerve to point out the existent flaws in the original films (especially ESB), or even have the gall to suggest that the prequel films actually do have merits, or that Disney isn't somehow scheming to totally destroy the franchise by deliberately releasing product that doesn't meet their elitist ideals of rose-tinted perfection.

At times, I can't blame Lucas from having walked away from what he created and once loved, just so he doesn't have to deal with it anymore.

46 minutes ago, KungFuFerret said:

Because of the whole "we don't understand what he's saying" thing? Because I think there have been movies where the main character says nothing, and their role is all physical type acting. Honestly these days I think you could pull that off with a Wookie lead. The acting for Chewie in Solo I felt was pretty good, even though you didn't understand him. The expressions, and emotional acting was very well portrayed in my opinion.

So yeah, I'm curious why that wouldn't work.

Chewie was a minor character. The humans carried the dramatic weight. Providing moments of pathos isn't the same as being an engaging main character. There's far more to it.

There's a reason it was Laura Dern who took command in Last Jedi and not a guy in a fish mask.

1 minute ago, Donovan Morningfire said:

That can honesty be said for    what passes as the Star Wars "fandom" in general these days, much of it rooted in how Star Wars these days is no longer "theirs" and instead open and available to a much broader spectrum of people fo  r any number of increasingly inane reasons. 

No one hates Star Wars as much as a Star Wars fan.

23 minutes ago, Stan Fresh said:

Chewie was a minor character. The humans carried the dramatic weight. Providing moments of pathos isn't the same as being an engaging main character. There's far more to it.

There's a reason it was Laura Dern who took command in Last Jedi and not a guy in a fish mask.

Being a minor character in one series of films, doesn't exclude a character from being able to be a main character in their own film though.

And I'm not sure Laura Dern is a good example of a main character. She had as much prior audience investment as Random Fish Guy 27 as of the start of Last Jedi. She was pretty throw away in the overall arc. She came in at the start of Act 2, left at the end of Act 3, and then Act 4 went on without her. If that's enough to qualify someone as a "main character", then Chewie has tons more Main Character cred than that.

If the issue is the acting difficulty of someone in a mask, again, I don't think that's as much of a hindrance these days. The tech for practical effects is pretty darn good, especially for Chewie, who's had 40 years of experience to improve on the equipment.

If the issue is the "He doesn't talk." Again, we've seen plenty of movies with silent protagonists, who either don't speak at all, or only a few lines here and there. It's not like Chewie can't get his point across to the audience when it comes to emotions. Chewie has an entire range of emotions on screen, that are easily discernible from vocal roars, and expressions. Seriously the "disbelieving side eye" he gives Han in the Solo film, multiple times, was perfect, and hilarious As to conveying more detailed information, they can just do what they've always done. Have people respond to his sounds with the other side of the conversation, and the audience can infer what he said based on that.

So yeah, I still don't see what about Chewie is an automatic no when it comes to being a main character in a film. The most likely problems I can think of, have been overcome in other films, and Disney has the budget to make the effects a non-issue really.

2 minutes ago, KungFuFerret said:

And I'm not sure Laura Dern is a good example of a main character. She had as much prior audience investment as Random Fish Guy 27 as of the start of Last Jedi. She was pretty throw away in the overall arc. She came in at the start of Act 2, left at the end of Act 3, and then Act 4 went on without her. If that's enough to qualify someone as a "main character", then Chewie has tons more Main Character cred than that.

Holdo was no more (or less) of a 'main character' than Raddus.

Some people have hang-ups about non-human (or near-human) characters being major protagonists. A lot of Star Wars goes this way, but it doesn't have to be this way. Farscape was good at fleshing out even the non-human members of the crew (Rigel, Pilot, D'argo, even Moya).

21 minutes ago, HappyDaze said:

Holdo was no more (or less) of a 'main character' than Raddus.

Some people have hang-ups about non-human (or near-human) characters being major protagonists. A lot of Star Wars goes this way, but it doesn't have to be this way. Farscape was good at fleshing out even the non-human members of the crew (Rigel, Pilot, D'argo, even Moya).

Let me be clear, I have no issue with the idea of Holdo being a main character, the point I was replying to was implying that Chewie wasn't a main character, but Holdo was. Which just seems incorrect on every level to me. And yes, Farscape is a great example of being able to have masked MC's who can carry a very compelling story. So yeah, I still don't see why a Chewie movie is just automatically a no go.

8 minutes ago, KungFuFerret said:

Let me be clear, I have no issue with the idea of Holdo being a main character, the point I was replying to was implying that Chewie wasn't a main character, but Holdo was. Which just seems incorrect on every level to me. And yes, Farscape is a great example of being able to have masked MC's who can carry a very compelling story. So yeah, I still don't see why a Chewie movie is just automatically a no go.

Another example of a non- human main character is Jar Jar in Ep1.

6 minutes ago, HappyDaze said:

Another example of a non- human main character is Jar Jar in Ep1.

And R2-D2 in New Hope, who was even less animated compared to Chewie, who has a face, but it's just as easy to understand R2's actions and thoughts via his chirps and whistles. Because the people making it made a point to assign sounds that would convey sadness (downward sloping tones), curiousity (upwards sloping tones), fear (warbling sounds), anger (screeching, howling, clearly annoyed sounds) etc. And we knew what he was "saying" by how people replied to his sounds, just like Chewie. So yeah, I just don't see the issue

24 minutes ago, KungFuFerret said:

, the point I was replying to was implying that Chewie wasn't a main character, but Holdo was           . 

No, it's not about who IS a main character but who has the ability to carry a movie. And fish mask guy or walking carpet guy don't have that.

36 minutes ago, Stan Fresh said:

No, it's not about who IS a main character but who has the ability to carry a movie. And fish mask guy or walking carpet guy don't have that.

Farscape shows that is not true.

13 minutes ago, Daeglan said:

Farscape shows that is not true.

The main character in Farscape is a human.

It also comes down to the actor. Not many actors can effectively emote through a full-facial prosthesis that blocks off their entire face, much less do so for scenes that carry any sort of gravitas. One of the highlights of the V for Vendetta film was Hugo Weaving's ability to emote through a mask that didn't move at all, and do so more convincingly than an unmasked Keanu Reeves could manage through the entire Matrix trilogy.

I see Farscape being bandied about, but apart from the main character and the leading female both being unmasked humans, none of the recurring central characters wore full-facial prosthesis; it was either partial prosthesis (Zargo), puppetry (Pilot and Rigel), or simply make-up (the rest of the ladies).

And let's be real here, outside of a very small section of the movie audience, a guy in talking fish head costume is pretty ridiculous, and is going to break general audience buy-in of serious scenes with just the fact that it's a guy wearing a fish head.

As is related to the topic fan entitlement, one has to remember that the self-professed "hardcore" Star Wars fans are a vast (if overly vocal) minority when compared to the much, much, much larger casual audience, the ones who aren't super-invested in the franchise. So while a Wookiee (whose speech would require subtitles) or Mon Cal protagonist (again, silly-looking fish head) might work for low-budget fan film or a fan-fic, but it's not going to really connect with an audience enough to warrant a major A-list release.

3 minutes ago, Donovan Morningfire said:

And let's be real here, outside of a very small section of the movie audience, a guy in talking fish head costume is pretty ridiculous, and is going to break general audience buy-in of serious scenes with just the fact that it's a guy wearing a fish head.

Take any movie. Replace one character with a dude in a fish mask. You now have a Youtube comedy video.

Take any movie. Replace the dialogue with Wookiee sounds. You now have a Youtube comedy video.

3 hours ago, Stan Fresh said:

No one hates Star Wars as much as a Star Wars fan.

This is true and as a pithy statement this is fine. But digging deeper it actually makes sense that someone who cares about the IP would be invested in seeing it a certain way. I admit that my own sensibilities are not only not shared by most fans but are also extremely irrelevant. This stuff is all about who likes chocolate cake and who doesn't.

1 hour ago, Daeglan said:

Farscape shows that is not true.

One of the abilities that we have is to be able to project meaning onto things that are absurd, like having a puppet on a quest to become a little boy, or to have talking fish man command a starship. This is quite different from being able to relate human situations at full strength and without loss of signal. When you try and have a non-speaking character as the main character you can get across a wide range of stuff and you can evoke audience empathy, but you will not get the close interface you will if you use a human (or something that is near enough to a human that it doesn't matter) who can speak the language and be in the situations the audience is most familiar with from their own lives and stories about real people.

1 minute ago, Archlyte said:

One of the abilities that we have is to be able to project meaning onto things that are absurd, like having a puppet on a quest to become a little boy, or to have talking fish man command a starship. This is quite different from being able to relate human situations at full strength and without loss of signal. When you try and have a non-speaking character as the main character you can get across a wide range of stuff and you can evoke audience empathy, but you will not get the close interface you will if you use a human (or something that is near enough to a human that it doesn't matter) who can speak the language and be in the situations the audience is most familiar with from their own lives and stories about real people.

Well given the main characters are Poe, Rey, Finn, BB-8 and possibly Rose. I dont think there would have been an issue. And Farscape did just fine having several non humans as main characters. For example people did just fine having empathy with Rigel. So that so called Loss of signal is not as big of an issue as you make it out to be.

1 minute ago, Daeglan said:

Well given the main characters are Poe, Rey, Finn, BB-8 and possibly Rose. I dont think there would have been an issue. And Farscape did just fine having several non humans as main characters. For example people did just fine having empathy with Rigel. So that so called Loss of signal is not as big of an issue as you make it out to be.

Also I think maybe Farscape and Star Wars are apples to oranges in some respects because I watched a little of Farscape and while you may have found it engaging I would not compare it to the effect that Star Wars had on audiences. Just because a series on Sci-Fi had a fanbase does not really compare with the cultural phenomenon of Star Wars and how it affected people. I would argue that one of the reasons for this were the human characters.

The Aliens and Droids are certainly an interesting addition and they make the setting what it is, but objectively you cannot argue that the protagonists are human. So I am saying that the non-humans are valid characters but they can't carry the weight of the story and still have it be Star Wars. It would be something else.