29 minutes ago, prauxim said:

trigge  r  [v.] (whatever it may mea  n   )

V stands for verb. Verb as in act, something that is being done, an operation. For the third time now, if you go overt all 37 times Rules Reference uses the world trigger, it is always used as a verb (e.g. "when ability triggers", "before it triggers", "if it triggered").

Not a single of these 37 use cases use the word trigger as a noun, so as an object, a thing. There are no cases when Rules Reference refers to "a trigger", talks about "ability's trigger" or lists possible "triggers, such as".

It being so, the word "trigger" is not used as a game term but simply as, well, the word it is. To trigger = to take place, to happen, to cause something to start.

In other words, in case of X-wing's Rules Reference, "trigger" is used instead of words "(to) happen", "(to) take place", "(to) activate". Not instead of words "condition", "cause", or "reason".

This means that trigger cannot be a precondition for entering the queue, because to trigger means, more or less, to enter the queue.

Probably the only reason I say "more or less" is because with how the queue is defined, it is only created when more than one ability triggers at once. So an ability can trigger without entering the queue if it's the only one triggering at this time. But if any other one triggers too, they enter the queue because of triggering.

And well, they couldn't have said "when two or more abilities enter the queue at the same time, the queue is formed" because we would end up arguing day and night whether or not there's an ancient, preexisting queue you can be entering in the first place to make the queue appear.

So, once again, there is no "trigger you can satisfy" in this game, there's "triggering at a specific timing".

In my opinion, it's simple like that:

Abilities trigger when they try to enter the queue.

Abilities resolve (or are resolved) when they try to leave the queue.

On 5/26/2019 at 5:02 AM, prauxim said:

"If         a player has multiple abilities that triggered from the same      event..." (RR, Ability Que) 

Sorry for the double post, I just thought more about the manner overnight (Europe here) and I wanted to clarify my point of view further.

This quote is where the way we think about the manner diverge the most. Some in this thread believe that RR challenges here whether "multiple abilities" will actually trigger.

Me and some others, I guess, think rather that it puts in question if they actually originate from the same event when they trigger (without much doubt if they do).

Example: Two abilities, one being "After you perform a red action, ..." and the other "After you gain stress token, ...", although will trigger pretty much at the very same point in the course of the game, they do not both trigger from the same event. This is where I find the quoted RR passage useful. On top of that, this sentence works for me as a smooth introduction to the topic.

The other interpretation, to me, bring a concern of limiting the design space - if in "When X, if Y, you Z" Y bits should be checked only to let the ability into the queue, than the stress-lock mechanisms seen on some cards ("if you are not stressed, you (...) and gain stress") is dead in the context of a shared timing, because one can put up to an infinite number of similar effects when not stressed, then start resolving them without any interruption (the condition already has been checked on queue entry, why would one check it again then?), ending up gaining all benefits albeit at a cost of an infinite amount of stress.

This is far less elegant solution in my view than checking the stress-free condition at execution time, to make sure just one effect of said sort can be resolved before the chain breaks, leaving more room for the design of similar effects in the future.

This behaviour is also more consistent with effects that do not have additional "if" clauses in them, but still may depend on one another's execution. The prime example being Kannan + ID, where putting them in the right order will give you additional stress Kannan can right away remove. It is intuitive that shifting the order of operations should affect the effect of upcoming operations.

Cheers.

while i 100% agree with @Ryfterek , i think it's worth clarifying even further, with a twist. abilities don't even have triggers, they have timings and they have effects.

and while trigger is just a word that can be replaced all willy nilly, the word effect and what constitutes a player effect or a game effect should really be defined further.

I'm going to say this again. The requirements outlined in the first two clauses must be met for Anakin's ability to enter the queue.

1st clause: When the check is done.

2nd clause: What is being checked for to permit the rest of the ability.

3rd clause: The rest of the ability that is applied when its turn comes up in the queue.

26 minutes ago, Hiemfire said:

I'm going to say this again. The requirements outlined in the first two clauses must be met for Anakin's ability to enter the queue.

1st clause: When the check is done.

2nd clause: What is being checked for to permit the rest of the ability.

3rd clause: The rest of the ability that is applied when its turn comes up in the queue.

Well, and how does that concur with the definition of the Abilities, quoted in the post just above yours by @meffo ? But let's repeat the key bit.

Quote

Abilities

Some of the text on condition, damage, ship and upgrade cards describe abilities . These abilities consist of timing and effect . [Underlined by me]

How does your division of the text into 3 pieces resonate with what's given in plain sight by RR?

Also, just repeating yourself over with no new arguments nor further reasoning over your previous arguments won't bring us anywhere, as long as your opinion on the matter is worth just as much as mine or anyone else's. Bold move to assume you know better just because, em, you do.

There is no hint of any prerequisites being checked for an ability before it enters the queue. The only thing we're told is that the queue is formed when two or more abilities trigger during the same timing window. That doesn't imply triggering is conditional, only that appearance of the queue is conditional.

2 hours ago, Hiemfire said:

I'm going to say this again. The requirements outlined in the first two clauses must be met for Anakin's ability to enter the queue.

1st clause: When the check is done.

2nd clause: What is being checked for to permit the rest of the ability.

3rd clause: The rest of the ability that is applied when its turn comes up in the queue.

what do you base that on?

anakins ability is, just like every other ability, a timing and an effect. the timing is after you fully execute a maneuver. that means his ability triggers when he fully executes a maneuver and if there are other abilities with the same timing, they enter the ability queue. then, the queue is resolved by resolving all effects in it in order.

2 hours ago, Hiemfire said:

I'm going to say this again. The requirements outlined in the first two clauses must be met for Anakin's ability to enter the queue. 

1st clause: When the check is done.

2nd clause: What is being checked for to permit the rest of the ability.

3rd clause: The rest of the ability that is applied when its turn comes up in the queue.

These are all the same thing. The timing allows the ability to be placed into the queue, the ability doesn't care about anything else until its turn in the queue comes up.