Question also applies to afterburners.

Would it be legal to (a) fully execute a maneuver and not be in R1 or BE, then (b) P17 or Afterburn into R1 or BE and finally (c) trigger Anakin's ability

This one is a bit trickier than it may seem, some relevant notes:

The ability que is our mechanism for resolving " multiple abilities that trigger during the same timing " (RR Ability Que). They have to trigger, simply having the same timing is not enough to allow us to que them up.

So the question revolves around weather or not Anakin's range check is part of his trigger. For example, compare him to Jake:

Jake is After [timing], you may [range conditions] [do effect]
While Anakin is After [timing], if [range condition], you may [cost] [ do effect]

Jake's range check is clearly after the "you (may) do ...." clause, so clearly not part of the trigger, but no so for Ani.

So can range check be part of a trigger? If so, is it in this case for Ani? If it is, would his ability not fail to trigger, excluding his ability from being queued?

isn't this about defining game effects and player effects again?

since the abilities share the same timing, if they are player effects, the controling player would be able to put them into the ability queue in any order he or she likes.

or in other words, as far as i know, this works. anakin can check for his ability after using afterburners or r4-p17.

4 minutes ago, meffo said:

isn't this about defining game effects and player effects again?

since the abilities share the same timing, if they are player effects, the controling player would be able to put them into the ability queue in any order he or she likes.

or in other words, as far as i know, this works. anakin can check for his ability after using afterburners or r4-p17.

The requirements for adding to the que are "triggered" not "have same timing"

Second clause ("if there is an enemy ship in your front arc at range 0-1 or in your bullseye arc,") is the trigger condition for Anakin's ability. First clause is when the check happens. If Anakin'a positioning does not meet the trigger's requirements at the time of the check it does not activate. So no, Anakin cannot Afterburners/R4-P7 into range 0-1 or to get his bullseye on a target and then use his ability, the timing window for the trigger would have passed.

15 minutes ago, prauxim said:

The requirements for adding to the que are "triggered" not "have same timing"

what's the difference? anakin, afterburners and r4-p17 all trigger after a maneuver has been executed.

3 minutes ago, meffo said:

what's the difference? anakin, afterburners and r4-p17 all trigger after a maneuver has been executed.

So Anakin's range requirement is not part of his trigger? It comes after the "if" and before the "you may..." sounds like part of the trigger to me, and not aware of anything that indicates otherwise

4 minutes ago, prauxim said:

So Anakin's range requirement is not part of his trigger? It comes after the "if" and before the "you may..." sounds like part of the trigger to me, and not aware of anything that indicates otherwise

it's part of the ability, just like the timing indicated is part of the ability. you can still put it into the queue after you fully execute a maneuver, no matter if you fulfill all the requirements at that time or not.

21 minutes ago, meffo said:

it's part of the ability, just like the timing indicated is part of the ability. you can still put it into the queue after you fully execute a maneuver, no matter if you fulfill all the requirements at that time or not.

It is for sure "part of that ability", 100% of the text is part of the ability

The question is what constitutes the "trigger". Trigger is a distinct keyword from timing and is a prerequisite for que entry

"If a player has multiple abilities that triggered from the same event..." (RR, Ability Que)

You either

1. Don't actually believe trigger is a prerequisite for que entry
2. Don't believe its possible for a trigger to have positional requirement
3. You do believe a trigger can have a positional requirement but feel it doesn't apply to Anakin for some reason (please state why)

11 hours ago, prauxim said:

It is for sure "part of that ability", 100% of the text is part of the ability

The question is what constitutes the "trigger". Trigger is a distinct keyword from timing and is a prerequisite for que entry

"If a player has multiple abilities that triggered from the same event..." (RR, Ability Que)

You either

1. Don't actually believe trigger is a prerequisite for que entry
2. Don't believe its possible for a trigger to have positional requirement
3. You do believe a trigger can have a positional requirement but feel it doesn't apply to Anakin for some reason (please state why)

trigger is not a keyword at all. it's not even a game term, since it's not defined. it is used quite a bit in the rules reference, though.

anakin has a pilot ability. it can be put into the ability queue whenever he fully executes a maneuver. r4-p17s ability can also be put into the ability queue after the ship it's equipped to fully executes a red maneuver.

these both seem very much like player effects - and thus, the player chooses in which order to put the abilities into the ability queue.

"if" and "when" (after) are part of the ability, you can always choose to try and resolve it when the ability triggers , as in at the specified timing, after you execute a maneuver. if you fulfill the positional requirement when the ability is resolved, you go on to resolve the rest of the ability. if you don't fulfil the positional requirement of the ability when it resolves, you're out of luck and cannot resolve the rest of the ability.

i would definitely rule this in the same way for other ships and abilities. maybe you are onto something, though. i don't believe "if there is an enemy ship in your at range 0-1 (front arc) or in your (bullseye)," is a prerequisite for entering the ability into the queue, no.

Oh, I'm wholeheartedly with @meffo on this one. Both of the abilities mentioned trigger out of the same game event, i.e. full execution of a (red) manoeuvre.

In case of Anakin's, there is a condition that has to be met upon resolving the ability in order to be able to gain a benefit out of it. That conditional for sure is not describing the game event triggering the ability. How come? Does Anakin's ability triggers once enemy I6 ace flying after him enters his front arc at range 0-1, or it lands in his bullseye.

Similar scenario: with Bossk [Gunner], who's ability says:

Quote

After you perform a primary attack that misses, if you are not stressed, you must receive 1 stress token to perform a bonus primary attack against the same target.

Is triggering point for the ability having performed an attack? Or is it not being stressed? I doubt it's ambiguous to anyone in this case.

The "[When] X, if Y, you Z" abilities trigger (so enter the queue) upon X, their resolution is limited by Y, and grant effect Z.

Edit:

If an ability has some additional conditions to be met to trigger, then these are laid out in the X part of the working template. Example: Obi-Wan Kenobi, the other Delta7 ace says:

Quote

After a friendly ship at range 0-2 spends a focus token, you may spend 1 force. If you do, that ship gains 1 focus token.

Which could have been worded: "After a friendly ship spends a focus token, if it's at range 0-2, you may spend 1 force. (...)" but he doesn't.

🤨 You've got to be kidding me... No wonder FFG had to clarify Kanan crew's ability...

First clause = Timing of the ability: "After you fully execute a maneuver,"

Second clause = Required conditions during that timing window (aka trigger): "if there is an enemy ship in your front arc at range 0-1 or in your bullseye arc,"

Third clause = What his ability does (effect): " you may spend 1 force charge to remove 1 stress token."

29 minutes ago, Hiemfire said:

You've  got to be kidding me... No wonder FFG had to clarify Kanan crew's  ability...

For now we probably could only agree to disagree, we'll see how it goes further, bit for now do you mind explaining what these two cards have to do with the situation? Their only "if" clauses regard player's decision about paying their optional costs.

But while we're on them, would you kindly explain from your point of view: in the text of the Inertial Dampeners, which part of the ability is:

1) The timing?

2) The trigger?

3) The effect?

25 minutes ago, Hiemfire said:

🤨 You've got to be kidding me... No wonder FFG had to clarify Kanan crew's ability...

First clause = Timing of the ability: "After you fully execute a maneuver,"

Second clause = Required conditions during that timing window (aka trigger): "if there is an enemy ship in your front arc at range 0-1 or in your bullseye arc,"

Third clause = What his ability does (effect): " you may spend 1 force charge to remove 1 str  ess token." 

i'm sorry, but i don't believe i understand this. please elaborate.

if fact, i think the clarification on kanan supports the interpretation that you can add r4-p17s ability before anakins.

i think your interpretation is that the timing window has passed once one ability has been resolved. that's simply not true, though. the timing for both abilities are after a maneuver has been executed. because of that, they can both be resolved - and resolving one before the other does not force you to go on in the round, skipping the resolution of the other ability because the timing has passed. that's the point of the ability queue, resolving several abilities that share the same timing.

Everything gets put into the queue at once. Anakin's ability doesn't resolve until its turn in the queue, at which point you choose a ship at range 1/bullseye.

The question isn't really about queue timing at all, it's about whether the ability can be placed into the queue in the first place without an enemy ship in the proper position.

For the record, I think it can, but I can also see where the other argument is coming from. Probably needs clarification from FFG.

Should these "when X, if Y" conditions be checked upon entering the queue, not at resolution time, a player would be able to place as many of "if you're not stressed, then do something you get a stress from" abilities in the queue and keep resolving them undisturbed. What to me seems more counterintuitive than placing things in the queue "optimistically" to see if they'll be able to actually resolve or not.

47 minutes ago, Maui. said:

The question isn't really about queue timing at all, it's about whether the ability can be placed into the queue in the first place without an enemy ship in the proper position.

For the record, I think it can, but I can also see where the other argument is coming from. Probably needs clarification from FFG.

Yes, it absolutely can, because you can execute it *without* an enemy in the correct position, and lose your opportunity to do it later if you reposition in between.

It's possible to attempt the ability and fail, so it *must* be possible to put it into the queue without knowing whether a valid target exists.

The main issue is definition of trigger. I have my intuitive one (everything before the "you (may) [verb]...") and other have theirs but it's all just speculation without and official one.

As for people operating on the assumption that timing and trigger are equivalent, the distinct use of the words in Ability Que and other sections of RR just don't support that.

That's been referred to before, but I'd like to emphasise it again - out of 37 occurrences of the word "trigger" in the Rules Reference, all 37 use this word as a verb , not a noun . Given that, I see no conflict between the two definitions we could conclude:

• timing [n.]: a distinct timeframe during the course of the game that can be referred to;
• (to) trigger [v.]: to take place during a given timing;

10 hours ago, prauxim said:

The main issue is definition of trigger. I have my intuitive one (everything before the "you (may) [verb]...") and other have theirs but it's all just speculation without and official one.

As for people operating on the assumption that timing and trigger are equivalent, the distinct use of the words in Ability Que and other sections of RR just don't support that.

oh, they'´re definitely not equivalent, but triggering something is equivalent to having something occur or resolve or be used. lot's of abilities need to be triggered and some even need several effects triggering to work properly. the term "trigger" doesn't need to be defined or considered a game term, since it might as well be replaced by terms like "use" or "resolve" or "come into play" etc..

pretty much all effects have specific timings, though. that's why timing and the ability queue and how to use them is so well described.

I feel like When X, If Y, Then Z has always been a bit undefined, whether the 'If' is processed with the 'When' or the 'Then.'

I think I'm mostly with @Maui. that you enter all your 'When' triggers into the queue when the 'When' happens and check the 'Ifs' at time of resolution, but I appreciate and acknowledge that the other side has some merit, and it'd probably be nice to get an official statement on these issues.

A lot of statements in this thread seem to have just been pulled from the ether and aren't supported by the RR.

10 hours ago, meffo said:

triggering something is equivalent to having something occur or resolve or be used  . lot's of abilities need to be triggered and some even need several effects triggering to work properly. the term "trigger" doesn't need to be defined or considered a game term, since it might as well be replaced by terms like "use" or "resolve" or "come into play" etc.. 

Not true, resolve is clearly distinct from trigger

If resolving an effect from the ability queue triggers additional effects, they
are added to the front of the ability queue using the above rules.

-- RR Ability Que

Trigger is a prerequisite for que entry, resolution happens on exit. Trigger is a distinct term, and cannot be substituted with anything else.

The ability queue is used to resolve the timing of multiple abilities that
trigger during the same timing window.

[...]

If a player has multiple abilities that triggered from the same event, that
player chooses the order that those abilities are added to the ability
queue.

 -- RR Abulity Que

Very clearly it's [trigger during same timing] > [add to que] > [resolve que]
And not [have same timing] > [add to que] > [trigger] > [resolve]

The only question here is what constitutes a trigger . Specifically, can something other than timing be considered a trigger?

The Official ruling for Kanan seems to indicate the answer is yes:

[...] if the player chooses to spend one Force charge to activate Kanan, two abilities enter the ability queue[...] 

This is an much more liberal definition of a what can be considered a trigger than would be required to prevent Anakin from triggering and therefore entering the que.

Its not conclusive (who know's the mechanics of FFG's actual trigger definition, if a cohesive one even exists) but it's the best actual evidence I've seen so far

@prauxim - you're looking for things that are not there. there is no definition of "trigger" or "resolve" in the rules. you're trying to extrapolate their meaning by piecing together parts of text from the rules reference using the terms.

what i'm saying is that these terms are not defined in the rules reference and that they can easily replace one another or be replaced by several other terms. there is no clear distinction, no. it's just language, not game terms.

effects generally trigger and have a specific timing. there is nothing stopping a player from triggering a specific effect at that effects timing. that's enough information to put that effect or ability into the ability queue. if the effect or ability will actually work to it's full potential, or work at all, is another matter all together.

timing and triggers are integral. nothing ever triggers outside of a specific timing and timings are only there for effects to trigger and resolve.

there is no indication anakins pilot ability would be prevented from entering the ability queue after the timing and trigger of the ability (for all intents and purposes, they are still the same thing in this context), "after you fully execute a maneuver,".

now, the next sentance of his ability is more of a trigger than a timing, but that part isn't relevant until his ability is being resolved.

there is no clear answer to what constitues a trigger. a trigger requires an ability or effect that it triggers. it also requires a condition or several conditions and a timing. the timing can be the required condition in and of itself, but that's not always the case. since it's not a game term, i don't think it requires more of a description than that.

certainly, other things than a timing could be considered triggers. that doesn't mean anything, though. it's just a word, not a game term.

6 hours ago, prauxim said:

The Official ruling for Kanan seems to indicate the answer is yes:

I now see where your stance comes from but I still argue with it. Looking at Kannan [Crew] card's text:

Quote

After a friendly ship at range 0-2 fully executes a white maneuver, you may spend 1 Icon force to remove 1 stress token from that ship.

Is there really a logical way to interpret paying the force tax as a trigger condition for anything when it is very visible to be a part of the effect itself ( pay [cost] to [do something] )?

As such, you'd have to assume that the ability begins resolving completely by-passing the rules of the queue up to the point where its owner chooses whether or not to spend a force token (this is what you believe to be the "trigger" of the ability after all). The flowchart would approximately be: [meet timing] -> [pay the cost, on order to...] -> [suspense, because you're entering the queue here] -> [actually resolve what you've paid for].

BUT, per RR. Golden Rules:

Quote

Paying Costs
A ship can pay a cost for an effect only if the effect can be resolved.

So, how could you possibly determine whether or not the cost for Kannan's ability can be paid before it even reaches the queue (and we determine through the resolution of the abilities in the queue if the ship will still be stressed later on, or whether it even will still be in the game)?

It's much more consistent with the rule above to put Kannan's ability simply after a friendly ship has moved, resolve the queue and when this ability gets to resolve, see if you can obtain the desired effect and - by extension - whether or not you can pay the cost.

Now, I know this is not explicitly in-line with what FFG wrote in the clarification thread but this might be a mind-shortcut, as in "if you'll pay, both abilities actually are doing something meaningful with both of them, so let's see how we shall resolve them".

And, again, there is no indication in the RR that " a trigger " is a thing in the game. All references to this word "trigger" inherit the meaning of " to trigger" . So, if you're to blame us any further we do not base our opinion on RR text, mind that your approach of treating it as a keyword isn't supported by the same text either.

Cheers.

@Ryfterek @meffo I'm legitimately trying to hear what you're saying but can't quite wrap my head around it.

I agree trigger is undefined and ambiguous, and that it's ambiguous as to weather Anakin's range condition is required for a trigger to occur (Kanan ruling gives an indication but its non-conclusive).

But, I totally disagree that it trigger can be "replaced by several other terms" or that "there is no indication it is a thing in the game". You guys are effectively arguing that the term trigger is meaningless, but simultaneously arguing you understand when abilities are allowed to enter the queue. I can't reconcile those two, since trigger [v.] (whatever it may mean) is irreconcilably required for queue entry.

The thing you are sort-of/maybe arguing (correct me if I'm wrong) is that "ability timing occurs" fully satisfies "ability triggered", which I'm not 100% opposed to, but there are some significant hurdles in that claim which land us right back in that same spot ("it's ambiguous")