.

Well from what I have seen is Dooku is REALLY disillusioned with the Jedi and the Republic. And Palpatine wants to rule the galaxy. So lets Lay out what the 2 want. What are their true goals. I think it we lay out the goals of each faction figuring out how they interact will be easier...

It's a cool idea. One interesting part is that Dooku holds a double-edged Ace up his sleeve: Dooku (through intermediaries) can feed the Jedi hints that Palpatine is a Sith Lord; if challenged Palpatine can counter with "but that's what a Sith Lord would say", but at some point the evidence will be unavoidable. The problem for Dooku is that on the face of it Palpatine has more to lose, but if the Jedi deal with him before he utters "Order 66", then there are no further doubts, and Dooku loses because the Republic's confusion (and corrupted inactivity) is erased. In fact, I can't see two such savvy political operatives not understanding that turning on each other is a recipe for their own doom. It's a "prisoner's dilemma", but the cost of working against each other is too high.

In order for them to work against each other, Dooku would have to know his time is up, and this comes when Anakin is ordered to cut off his head. So a twist might be if Anakin actually refuses to cut off Dooku's head, after which Dooku somehow escapes. Then it really is two Sith Lords at each other's throats, and Dooku would probably spill the beans in an incontrovertible way because he's doomed either way. And depending on how the escape is handled, Anakin may get "clued in" a bit sooner, realize what happened in the "do it!" moment, which means even if Palpatine still has Order 66, he's less in control of the timing, so more Jedi might escape.

Palpatine probably has other Orders cued up too...for the Clones to impose martial law, etc, but maybe now it's a 3-way conflict. The CIS planets still think Dooku being a Sith is just "Republic propaganda". The Republic is thrown into chaos because "what? martial law? here?" and rebellions might be earlier and more brazen because the Republic/Imperial machine isn't big enough to handle it all. And the Jedi might be outlawed, but there would be more of them, possibly some council members, working in the shadows trying to mend it all.

I'm not sure it would alter the game, much though. Non-Force users would have to be careful about whose space they were flying in, which side they were on, etc. If anything there would be more chaos, less certainty about who controls what space lanes, or which planets might have changed sides, or having to deal with Clones instead of the local bureaucracy.

.

40 minutes ago, HappyDaze said:

Part of the retcon would be that the Sith cannot reveal the existence of the Sith. This means Dooku can cast shade on Palpatine doing dirty politics, but calling him out as Sith is against the rules. The same goes for outing Dooku as Sith.

Why wouldnt they though? The Sith are very selfish and throwing the other guy under the bus fits unless they have something to gain by not. So i could see them both throwing the other under the bus in the power struggle.

.

14 minutes ago, HappyDaze said:

I'm reframing. In this the Sith play by rules rather than just being chaotic evil.

And i am asking why. the dark side comes across a extremely itnis all about me. So I think there needs to be more thought into the thinking than they follow rules now. Cause following rules for rules sake does not seem to fit the psychology of the dark side.

.

50 minutes ago, HappyDaze said:

Hey, I'm making it as deep as Lucas would. A Sith tradition that cares more for the sake of the tradition itself than the individual members is an alternate take. Both Sith Lords want to be the last Lord standing but not by risking exposure of the Sith plans. In this they are true believers in a cause beyond themselves rather than just overcome with selfishness.

And i am doing what people should have been doung to Lucas. Questioning things rhat lack consistancy

.

I had been thinking about something like this already, for a PBP game.

Here is a different "alternate universe" take on the Clone Wars that changes several key factors of canon.

1) Darth Sidious is not Palpatine. Whoever he is, his agenda is to see the Republic and Jedi fall, and the CIS to rise to dominance (with him secretly in power).
2) Sidious doesn't believe in the Rule of Two, and as such doesn't have a problem with multiple apprentices.
3) Palpatine (who is not even Force Sensitive) is a true patriot for the Republic, and is doing his best to root out corruption.
4) Anakin is not the Chosen One, just a powerful Jedi.
5) Jedi Master Sifo Dyas implemented the Clone program with the blessing of the Jedi Council. He is still alive and overseeing the project.
6) There is no "Order 66" directive.

The idea is to weave a Clone Wars campaign where the ending isn't pre-determined.

Inquisitors can be re-skinned as CIS allied Sith apprentices.

7 hours ago, HappyDaze said:

What would you suggest to improve the consistency? Keep in mind that nothing is sacred to me. I can deal with rewriting the Republic, CIS, Sith, and/or Jedi to various degrees if that's what it takes.

What i am seeing as inconsistant is the fact that darksiders are seff serving. I dont see self serving people as caring much about tradition. So there needs to be a reason other than tradition they are keeping the sith secret.

What if not even neither Dooku or Sidius knows that the other are their rival sith lords? Maybe they both apprenticed under Plagius? That would mean that Dooku wouldn't have gone full darkside on Obi-won or Anakin at the end of Ep2 in order to keep his secret, but instead fought them defensively. He would have kept to a more straight up separatist rhetoric that the republic is corrupt and that they only want their own freedom. That could really divide the jedi instead of galvanizing them against the CIS since there was no obvious sith lord to fight against.

I've seen it mentioned several times that Sidius cancelled or outright denied several plans for CIS research or designs. If it wasn't for holding the CIS back I think they could have easily won. In order to fight a full blown droid army with no limitations the Republic would have needed to train up a real army of volunteers & conscripts.

4 hours ago, Ahrimon said:

What if not even neither Dooku or Sidius knows that the other are their rival sith lords? Maybe they both apprenticed under Plagius? That would mean that Dooku wouldn't have gone full darkside on Obi-won or Anakin at the end of Ep2 in order to keep his secret, but instead fought them defensively. He would have kept to a more straight up separatist rhetoric that the republic is corrupt and that they only want their own freedom. That could really divide the jedi instead of galvanizing them against the CIS since there was no obvious sith lord to fight against.

I've seen it mentioned several times that Sidius cancelled or outright denied several plans for CIS research or designs. If it wasn't for holding the CIS back I think they could have easily won. In order to fight a full blown droid army with no limitations the Republic would have needed to train up a real army of volunteers & conscripts.

The lightsaber duel doesnt make sense if Dooku is being defensive. Since Jedi are more defensive.

55 minutes ago, Daeglan said:

The lightsaber duel doesnt make sense if Dooku is being defensive. Since Jedi a  re more defensive.

THAT lightsaber duel doesn't if it goes word for word, action for action from what we saw in the movies. But that's now what we're talking about here. As Happy said " This requires a bit of reworking some events and premises."

53 minutes ago, Daeglan said:

Dont be so literal.

I had to grab that from another thread because I think it applies. You almost make it sound like you think that the Sith are mustache twirling evil to the core villains who are incapable of following any rules.

If Dooku is hiding that he is a Sith, after he fell back and Anakin and Obi-won followed him, he could easily continue to fight more defensively. As in not throwing out lightning or trying to kill them outright. If he defended himself long enough to get onto his ship and leave then he would maintain a more moral high-ground and not blatantly painted himself as the evil mastermind to the Jedi.

Some of the earlier conversations on Geonosis would have had to gone differently, but as long as it's consistent with him working to maintain moral high ground then he can disguise who he is.

The jedi were very much rush in and chop anyone up who got in their way on Geonosis. If you take out viewer knowledge, Anakin and Padme snuck into a secure facility and started murdering the guards. It's easy enough to see the Geonosians condemn them to death for their wanton slaughter. Obi-won was a risk to reveal their plans to secede before they were ready, and could have simply been held prisoner until the CIS made their move if it wasn't for Anakin going psycho and was sentenced to death with them by association. It'd be easy enough to say that Dooku sent Jango to stop the assassin that was going after Padme, but he caught up slightly too late. He's a ruthless bounty hunter so he finished the job he was paid for and left.

I just want to say that I love this thread.

I like Happy's retcon because it has a more interesting interaction between the two main dark siders.

For my version I use this:

• The Clone Wars is fought mainly by troops organic to the two political factions with the main corps being comprised of organic regular forces and conscripted forces.
• The Droids are used as shock troops and comprise only about 10% of all CIS Forces.
• The B1's are much tougher and do not talk in that stupid voice.
• Clones are also used as a higher tier, elite type of unit that makes up just one expeditionary force. The bulk of Republic Army/Navy are normal organic troops. They make up about 4% of the total Republic order of battle. They are high visibility still so the conflict gets named after them.
• The Jedi are not diminished in their use of the Force but they are blinded on the Clone Wars outcome. Jedi scholars work on this problem up til the end.
• Palpatine has to work very hard to maintain being hidden in the Force. He has apprentices who are essentially his lightning rods to misdirect. He has items that were made with Sith Alchemy in the ancient past that hide him in the Force but he also has to disconnect from the Force quite a bit. He also uses a lot of body doubles a'la Saddam Hussein.
• Order 66 was not nearly as effective or instant as it was in the movie. A lot of Jedi got away and some even continued to fight against the new Empire albeit in very covert ways. This makes the Inquisitorious much more busy.
• The Jedi Temple was attacked with ships and then clean up was accomplished with the 501st and Anakin.
• The bulk of Force Sensitives do not realize they are FS and don't evince any special abilities that they perceive. Jedi recruitment before the events of the Clone Wars already takes years of searching. Jedi Searchers are among many of those who survived O66.

Here's an idea.

In the past, opposing sides of conflicts tried to be more "humane" in that they weren't sending citizens to their deaths, but were creating artificial beings to fight battles for them.

That is, until the clones decided they knew better and banded against their creators.

Thus began the Clone Wars.

.

1 minute ago, GroggyGolem said:

Here's an idea.

In the past, opposing sides of conflicts tried to be more "humane" in that they weren't sending citizens to their deaths, but were creating artificial beings to fight battles for them.

That is, until the clones decided they knew better and banded against their creators.

Thus began the Clone Wars.

This is pretty much what the original EU had established before the Prequels came out. Read the original Thrawn Trilogy.

24 minutes ago, Tramp Graphics said:

This is pretty much what the original EU had established before the Prequels came out. Read the original Thrawn Trilogy.

That's pretty cool.

.

On 5/26/2019 at 5:05 PM, HappyDaze said:

This version might also have a Jedi schism during the formation of the Separatist movement involving a set of Jedi swayed by Dooku's sincere intent to save the Republic and stop the hidden menace of the Sith. These allied Jedi are likely lost by the time Dooku himself adopts a Sith identity.

I like this version better than two Sith "following the rules". It's also closer to what the current canon suggests was Dooku's original motives, it just moves the point and source of corruption around.

.

1 hour ago, HappyDaze said:

The thing that leads me to believe that canon Dooku doesn't want the CIS to win is that the Separatist Council is literally composed of the most corrupt parts of the Republic. He's originally an idealist that wants stronger central government. Between the corporate jackholes and drawing out dissenting systems that resist central government, the CIS looks like a massive honey trap to draw together things that would make trouble for a reformed Republic (or Empire, if you prefer).

What is sad is Dooku saw the problem and is literally applying the wrong fix. The jedi order needef independence from the Senate and the republic needed more federalism badly