I don't understand how the force card Sense is meant to be used. It seems pretty useless to see another ships planned movement if you are already committed to your movement. At best it seems like you might plan an alternative action based on the new info and maybe barrel roll away or something, but that hardly seems worth the cost. Is there something I'm missing here that makes the Sense card more viable?

On 5/25/2019 at 3:56 PM, Beaks66 said:

I don't understand how the force card Sense is meant to be used. It seems pretty useless to see another ships planned movement if you are already committed to your movement. At best it seems like you might plan an alternative action based on the new info and maybe barrel roll away or something, but that hardly seems worth the cost. Is there something I'm missing here that makes the Sense card more viable?

Sense pairs best with a squad full of ships that can reposition well and/or change maneuver when they activate (e.g. Slave-1, Saesee Tiin, Seasoned Navigator, etc).

Stuff you can do if you know exactly where your opponent is planning to go when your ships activate:

• Set up a block to deny their action(s)
• Set up a kill box by pointing your firing arcs where they're about to go
• Dodge their firing arc
• All of these at once

It's also only useful when your ships move before your opponent's. It doesn't make sense (heh) in a list where you expect all your ships will move last almost all the time. It's excellent in lists with agile middle/low initiative ships that are unlikely to move last.

One of the lists I've been meaning to try is Mace Windu with Sense in a squad with Saesee Tiin.

It's mostly not. Its saving grace is that unlike every other force talent but Hate, it doesn't cost an extra force.

But yeah, it gives you the option to respond to their movement, knowing what it is. It's rarely useful, but occasionally essential. not sure whether Anakin's doing a 5k or a 2 sloop? Check.

it's a lot better when you have things which can allow you to change dials based on the information but... mostly it's just plain mediocre and rarely worth taking.

The issue is not the card itself, its that none of the force users currently in the game can really make good use of it. It would be great for bombers and blockers, but most force users are not used that way. I am sure more pilots will come out that will be able to use it.

An example where sense can be useful: Ventress, Sense + seasonned navigator: plot a 3 speed manoeuver, look at the dial of someone who is much higher and change the manoeuver to block, flee, etc.

It's an interesting combo, although not necessarily a competitive one.

First, I'll note that a lot of folks who play a lot of Sense report that they rarely have to spend force to use it. I think a lot of folks see the "spend a force" part and figure that it's not that good, but there's a lot of mileage you can get from it without spending force charges. Times when enemies are within range 1 are often the times you need to see their dial the most.

With that in mind, Sense seems to want ideally a low-to-middle-init ship with strong reposition abilities. Maybe that's changing dials, but just having both boost and barrel roll probably goes a long way. To that end, it seems like both TIE v1 and most Aethersprite pilots are going to do pretty reasonable with it. Someone like Mace can use Fine-Tuned Controls to shift about and either preemptively arc dodge or set up blocks. I'm sure Saesee Tiin can get more leverage out of it than some other pilots, but it probably isn't necessary. Not that Anakin would necessarily be bad with Sense, but I figure he probably doesn't need it as much, since he's already moving last. Middle Initiative pilots like Mace can use help getting position that someone like Anakin doesn't need.

I think @wurms was describing a really cool sounding Sense-based squad. Vader (with Sense), Soontir, and a support Vizier Reaper. The Reaper's Ailerons and Coordinate (also a way to get repositioning before you move) will go a long way towards putting Vader or Soontir into better positions for their move, with the information from Sense.

Yeah, Sense is very iffy. The squad needs to be built around it to get your 6pts from it. Ive tried it with Vader in TIE Salad list (Vader,Vermeil,Gideon,Countdown). I played versus a rebel beef, and after wedge died, I didnt need it anymore.

I came back to it though, like Bitterfig stated above. Flying Vader, Soontir, and Vizier with Ciena Ree crew. Sense is almost mandatory as this entire list is about keeping Vader on the target you want to kill. Sense a ship to know where they are going, keep Vizier safe or block knowing this information, coordinate a barrel roll to vader to Ciena Ree and turn 90 degrees to keep on targets ****. Do a blue move and destroy. I never had to guess to use Ciena Ree or not as Vader was getting coordinated at initiative 3 and flying against initiative 5's and 6's (Poe, Nein, Lulo). I knew exactly where the ship I wanted to kill was going, and either rolled and turned 90 degrees, or just continued on. Sense was used like 5 times, and I only paid for it once (which let Vizier dodge Poe's arc, by aileroning and slooping over a gas cloud).

Tyler Tippet flew Vader with Sense along with Soontir and three academy ties to top 8 or top 4 in hyperspace trials. The ties are now 100% sure they are blocking a ship or not. No guessing about barrel rolls or focus.

I run in in my trip I4 7B list on Mace. It's pretty clutch against aces, and of course dead against low-I lists, but I can live with that. It hard counters non-SN Vader super hard, makes him trivial to block with the deltas, and he's a wet noodle with no TL or TL on wrong target

But also, what else am I going to spend the 6pts on, I already have R2 and 7B, there are no other decent upgrades. Maaaybe 1x afterburners, but Sense helps everybody.

8 hours ago, prauxim said:

But also, what else am I going to spend the 6pts on, I already have R2 and 7B, there are no other decent upgrades.

Synchronized Console might be fun to try out for a game; I've enjoyed it when I've flown with it myself. Some Jedi or another is usually in a safe place to Lock and take a shot, and with three SynCon ships at the same Init 4, you can shuffle those Locks around at will. There's like a 42% chance that you roll zero blanks on 3 dice, so it isn't too hard to pass the Lock. Even if you do roll blanks, it might still sometimes be the right plan to pass it with SynCon, depending on the quality of shots each pilot has, force charges available, and so forth.

Basically, Synchronized Console is 6 points for the ability to Coordinate Locks at Range 3, after you've rolled your dice and know whether or not you need to reroll.

37 minutes ago, theBitterFig said:

Synchronized Console might be fun to try out for a game; I've enjoyed it when I've flown with it myself. Some Jedi or another is usually in a safe place to Lock and take a shot, and with three SynCon ships at the same Init 4, you can shuffle those Locks around at will. There's like a 42% chance that you roll zero blanks on 3 dice, so it isn't too hard to pass the Lock. Even if you do roll blanks, it might still sometimes be the right plan to pass it with SynCon, depending on the quality of shots each pilot has, force charges available, and so forth.

Basically, Synchronized Console is 6 points for the ability to Coordinate Locks at Range 3, after you've rolled your dice and know whether or not you need to reroll.

Having gotten dismantled by Sense + FTC for native stress-less double repo, Sense is definitely better for the Ace insurance than Synchronized Console is. Can't pass locks if you never get a shot off, and Sense guarantees that you win the 2 ship vs. 1 Ace matchup in end-game no matter how little health you have left.

It can also be good to see if dropping a device/bomb would be effective or not, since Sense and dropping both happen in the System phase, you can see if a ship would be in range of it, and if its worth dropping it.

8 hours ago, RampancyTW said:

Having gotten dismantled by Sense + FTC for native stress-less double repo, Sense is definitely better for the Ace insurance than Synchronized Console is. Can't pass locks if you never get a shot off, and Sense guarantees that you win the 2 ship vs. 1 Ace matchup in end-game no matter how little health you have left.

They'll each have strengths against different things, to be sure. But I have been pleasantly surprised with SynCon. I think it looked kind of gimmicky, but the plain use of action economy and passing locks seemed better than I'd thought it would be. That's all. Seems like it might be worth a shot some casual game, just to feel it out.

59 minutes ago, Lyianx said:

It can also be good to see if dropping a device/bomb would be effective or not, since Sense and dropping both happen in the System phase, you can see if a ship would be in range of it, and if its worth dropping it.

Here it's worth keeping in mind that Initiative matters, that ships resolve abilities in the System Phase in increasing initiative, much like Placement and Activation. If Vader has Sense, but you also have a Scimitar Bomber and an Echo Phantom, you'll need to drop bombs first at Init 2 with the Scimitar, then decloak Echo at Init 4, then use Vader's Sense at Init 6. Given the high Initiative of many force users, it often won't be too easy to use effectively in this way. Rey, for instance, is higher Init than any of the MG-100 Starfortresses, so she can't scout with Sense for their bombs.

42 minutes ago, theBitterFig said:

Here it's worth keeping in mind that Initiative matters, that ships resolve abilities in the System Phase in increasing initiative, much like Placement and Activation. If Vader has Sense, but you also have a Scimitar Bomber and an Echo Phantom, you'll need to drop bombs first at Init 2 with the Scimitar, then decloak Echo at Init 4, then use Vader's Sense at Init 6. Given the high Initiative of many force users, it often won't be too easy to use effectively in this way. Rey, for instance, is higher Init than any of the MG-100 Starfortresses, so she can't scout with Sense for their bombs.

True, but with the named force users, you'd likely want to take a better Force ability anyway. If you are building a list around bombing, you'd probably want to use someone like the "Inquisitor" at Ini 3 with more elite bombers like Tomax (5) or even just some Gamma Sq pilots (3). Jedi Knights are in the same position. Both them and the Inquisitors can be valuable in that sense as "weak" force users. Arguably, Ahsoka is also at 3 so could be used the same way, and her action bonus can help that even more (when the Republic starts getting more viable bombers like the Y-wings).