On 5/23/2019 at 9:36 PM, millertime059 said:

Honestly I think most of the named Arc pilots are ok where they are. Maybe not Oddball, but Sinker, Wolffe, And Jag all have found success for me.

The Seventh Fleet not so much, and the non Goldie Torrents no as well. So I would be very cautious about dropping points on them. I wouldn’t mind a drop on the gunner though, but understandably I doubt they do that because 4x 104ths with the gunner may be a touch too much.

On 5/24/2019 at 1:50 PM, Caduceus01 said:

I’m actually kinda hoping the scaling of Republic shows that they are finally realizing how powerful I4+ is and that other ships are going to change to match in the future. Generics need to have a place and that won’t happen while the higher initiative pilots are simply more efficient.

I'm coming more in line with these opinions

Rather than lower Arc costs (other than the generic I 3...wtf), I would rather see the rest of the game brought up to this kind of point scaling. Named pilots with powerful abilities oughta be costed appropriately

Other than the Torrents, of course. We have to exercise some flexibility with a.) poor/fodder ship chassis and b.) bad/highly situational pilot abilities

Well, that and Oddball in general.

I'm gonna voice an unpopular opinion as one who list builds most factions on a very regular basis: most of FFGs costing on ships and pilots is ABSOLUTELY spot on.

Testers have figured out a lot of things that the meta has not, and costing tends to be based on the most abusive combination of elements.

Something may not make sense in a vacuum, but just wait until you come up with that ONE CRAZY THING that you just have to do ....

... And it's 201 points.

TL,DR: I think only the Torrents seem wrong.

Torrent: Who knows? Everything but the Gold is wicked overpriced. Gold is 1 point more than an equivalent Init TIE pilot, but the rest? 3-5 points more than TIEs of similar initiative, pilot ability strength, and Talented-status. Oddball at 38, compared to Mauler Mithel's 32? Absurd. Torrent-Oddball at 33 seems right for what he can do.

ARCs: There isn't a large jump in ARC prices up from the lowest generic to the talented and named pilots. There's a large drop in the price of the 104th. It kind of amounts to the same thing in the end, but I think think there's a difference. Squad Seven and all the named pilots are pretty similar in price to equivalent power levels on the Rebel ARCs. Now, it's entirely fair to say that all the Rebel ARCs (and Kimogilas and G1-As and Scurrgs) need a price cut, but at this time they are what they are. Republic ARC prices--other than the 104th--aren't remotely bizarre in that context. Most of them seem exactly in-line with other similar ships.

Jedi: I think the force is just really strong, gets more powerful as initiative increases, and it should cost a lot. They don't seem wrong to me.

Comparing Republic Arcs to Rebels is kinda pointless, since you'd have to be off your gourd to believe they're worth a **** outside Norra (I 5; incredible ability)

I'm convinced now that FFG did well by pricing Republic Arcs (7th fleet and Oddball excepted), because the LEAP in points to named pilots is punctuated by great abilities

If we were to look at Rebel Arcs via the lens of what FFG should price by (initiative + ability), their cost would have to drop pretty significantly

Thinking there's a sudden drop to the 104th, rather than a jump, is also a bit misleading because higher initiative + abilities are a MASSIVE advantage over generic pilots. It's something I'd rather see reflected over more ships.

(course, it also depends on the abilities. Non-Norra rebel Arcs have pretty...bleh abilities, as do the Torrents. Costs should reflect that)

2 minutes ago, ficklegreendice said:

Comparing Republic Arcs to Rebels is kinda pointless, since you'd have to be off your gourd to believe they're worth a **** outside Norra (I 5; incredible ability)

I'm convinced now that FFG did well by pricing Republic Arcs (7th fleet and Oddball excepted), because the LEAP in points to named pilots is punctuated by great abilities

If we were to look at Rebel Arcs via the lens of what FFG should price by (initiative + ability), their cost would have to drop pretty significantly

Thinking there's a sudden drop to the 104th, rather than a jump, is also a bit misleading because higher initiative + abilities are a MASSIVE advantage over generic pilots. It's something I'd rather see reflected over more ships.

(course, it also depends on the abilities. Non-Norra rebel Arcs have pretty...bleh abilities, as do the Torrents. Costs should reflect that)

Hey, Shara is pretty darn good! Especially combo'd with anyone who can help in passing focus or extra actions, magva crew, etc..

compared to Wolfe, though? ...eeeeeeeeeeeeeh

yeah, I think she's better than wolfe, but only because the available options to help her currently.

1 hour ago, ficklegreendice said:

Comparing Republic Arcs to Rebels is kinda pointless, since you'd have to be off your gourd to believe they're worth a **** outside Norra (I 5; incredible ability)

I'm convinced now that FFG did well by pricing Republic Arcs (7th fleet and Oddball excepted), because the LEAP in points to named pilots is punctuated by great abilities

If we were to look at Rebel Arcs via the lens of what FFG should price by (initiative + ability), their cost would have to drop pretty significantly

Thinking there's a sudden drop to the 104th, rather than a jump, is also a bit misleading because higher initiative + abilities are a MASSIVE advantage over generic pilots. It's something I'd rather see reflected over more ships.

(course, it also depends on the abilities. Non-Norra rebel Arcs have pretty...bleh abilities, as do the Torrents. Costs should reflect that)

Shara Bey is certainly weak in this edition. There isn't the cheap action economy to support her ability. Garven Dreis is meh. His supporting action economy is too inconsistent, but he doesn't pay that much for it. I think Ibtisam is a little underrated. She's certainly RNG, but it can be quite powerful when you pull off white K-Turns. The 1e version was one of my go-to lists near the end of the edition, and when it works, it's great.

But whether or not Rebel ARCs ought to be priced like this, they are. It doesn't seem strange to me in the least for Republic ARCs to pay about the same price as Rebel ARCs. Likewise, I think it's right to call the 104th a drop, because that's pretty much how it works on every other ship.

I wouldn't mind too much if some other ships saw price drops, along with your theory of how things should cost. It can be tricky with a lot of these price discussions, since a lot of natural comparisons can be ships with prices which... aren't perfect? But like, most of the game isn't perfect. If it's undercosted, it sees a lot of play (limited B-Wings). If even fair prices (I think most First Order stuff is pretty fair) don't see much play, comparison to anything which isn't winning massively kind of becomes a mugs game where no-one can win.

1 hour ago, Arc170Chris said:

Hey, Shara is pretty darn good! Especially combo'd with anyone who can help in passing focus or extra actions, magva crew, etc..

Powerful text, but weak for the total ship/list cost, IMHO. In 1e, that same ability was quite good, because Push the Limit and Rey crew were cheap. 4 points to stack focus in this edition, and Shara is a BEAST. In order to get non-action modification, she'd need stuff like Kanan or Magva Yarro or Saw, and that's all far more expensive, and doesn't work quite as well. I know that same difference is widespread between 1e and 2e, but few pilots required as much action economy investment as this.

14 minutes ago, theBitterFig said:

Shara Bey is certainly weak in this edition. There isn't the cheap action economy to support her ability. Garven Dreis is meh. His supporting action economy is too inconsistent, but he doesn't pay that much for it. I think Ibtisam is a little underrated. She's certainly RNG, but it can be quite powerful when you pull off white K-Turns. The 1e version was one of my go-to lists near the end of the edition, and when it works, it's great.

But whether or not Rebel ARCs ought to be priced like this, they are. It doesn't seem strange to me in the least for Republic ARCs to pay about the same price as Rebel ARCs. Likewise, I think it's right to call the 104th a drop, because that's pretty much how it works on every other ship.

I wouldn't mind too much if some other ships saw price drops, along with your theory of how things should cost. It can be tricky with a lot of these price discussions, since a lot of natural comparisons can be ships with prices which... aren't perfect? But like, most of the game isn't perfect. If it's undercosted, it sees a lot of play (limited B-Wings). If even fair prices (I think most First Order stuff is pretty fair) don't see much play, comparison to anything which isn't winning massively kind of becomes a mugs game where no-one can win.

Powerful text, but weak for the total ship/list cost, IMHO. In 1e, that same ability was quite good, because Push the Limit and Rey crew were cheap. 4 points to stack focus in this edition, and Shara is a BEAST. In order to get non-action modification, she'd need stuff like Kanan or Magva Yarro or Saw, and that's all far more expensive, and doesn't work quite as well. I know that same difference is widespread between 1e and 2e, but few pilots required as much action economy investment as this.

You are forgetting of all the rebel pilots that can give shara double mods with out putting too many points on shara herself. You have to look at overall lists. Shara has been extremely strong closer for me, or just all around heavy hitter.

10 hours ago, Arc170Chris said:

You are forgetting of all the rebel pilots that can give shara double mods with out putting too many points on shara herself. You have to look at overall lists. Shara has been extremely strong closer for me, or just all around heavy hitter.

No, that's why I said "total ship/list cost" and not just ship, but that's mostly just hinting at it and I should have been specific. My bad.

For example, Dutch is an effective include in almost any list, able to fit in with the last few points as a Lock-bot. But either Shara or Dutch could be Braylen Stramm. And is Dutch really much better at helping Shara than helping Wedge? If a defender has a single green token or force charge, Focus/Lock Wedge will do more damage than Shara with Focus/Lock (Shara does more if they don't have or are unwilling to spend tokens). But Wedge is more maneuverable, cheaper, has higher Initiative, and far stronger if he doesn't get help from a support ship. Shara can get to where Wedge is with help, but it kind of takes the long way around, and it'll be a lot easier to have it fall apart.

//

That said, Wedge, Shara, Dutch, and Jake might be a fun little list to play with. Two support bots, and two solid hitters. There's 20 points left to fill with upgrades, once you've got all the pilots. Proton Torps on Wedge, ICT on Dutch (no gunner?), and either a talent or two for Jake or R3 Astro for Shara (but there's no particular magic between Dutch and R3, so maybe Predator or Crack Shot or Both for Jake makes more sense... Hrm).

I mean, it's not going to be "better" than a standard Rebel Beef, and probably doesn't have the secret sauce to push it over Extended-format mainstays, but it could be fun. I like the way either support ship could help either hitter, depending on positions.

On the other hand, Norra can be a beastly tank. Her ability can easily double her effective hit points. I guess I keep wanting to go back to somewhat more self-sufficient pilots. Or at least pilots who don't need but still enjoy support, rather than those who need extra investment.

//

Also, this discussion has been cool to give me a chance to think about Shara action-spending strategies. I think a lowkey benefit of Shara is the single-blank roll. Shara can just spend her lock to add the focus directly, rather than risking a 25% chance to reroll into a blank.

Here has been my most successful list. Really makes target priority for the opponent hard, and it doesn't really matter anyway to me.

Z-95-AF4 Headhunter - •Airen Cracken - 43
•Airen Cracken - Intelligence Chief (36)
Trick Shot (2)
Cluster Missiles (5)

T-65 X-wing - •Garven Dreis - 49
•Garven Dreis - Red Leader (47)
Trick Shot (2)
Servomotor S-foils (Open) (0)

RZ-1 A-wing - •Jake Farrell - 44
•Jake Farrell - Sage Instructor (36)
Daredevil (3)
Cluster Missiles (5)

ARC-170 Starfighter - •Shara Bey - 64
•Shara Bey - Green Four (53)
•Magva Yarro (8)
R3 Astromech (3)

Total: 200/200

it has been fun!

I think it'd be interesting to think about the hypothetical implied by this: What if other factions gained the lower prices for cheap generics implied by Resistance Price Scaling? 104ths seem like they're probably

Suppose nearly every lowest generic went down around 2 points like how the ARC pricing works. (Or maybe the named pilots go up a bit like the Torrent...)

Going through hyperspace faction by faction, maybe with a few highlights from Extended:

• Rebels
  • X-Wing - this would probably mean 39 points for the Rookiee Pilot, which is a massive 5-per-list breakpoint. There'd probably be a lot of breakpoints like this hit under such a scheme. But if it happens across the board, I don't know that it's a real issue, even if I didn't personally like the five X-Wing meta at the end of 1e.
  • Y-Wing - possibly 6x Turret non-gunner Ion Y-Wings, and almost surely 5x Ion VTG.
  • Modified YT-1300 - I kinda think the statline of these couldn't absorb a 66 point version (I think Resistance Scavenged YT-1300 probably could handle 3x per list)
  • A-Wing - At 29, that'd basically be free Crack Shot on a Phoenix. Should be fine.
  • B-Wing - Pretty much ditto the X-Wing, but maybe these could be 40 points (only minus 1), while the named pilots tick up one or two, splitting the difference between the ARC and the Torrent. I don't really think X-Wing named pilots need across the board increases. It still does the 5-per breakpoints, but it'd still be a little pricier than the X-Wing (I think it probably is a hair better). I don't know if the 4x Advanced Sensors B-Wing breakpoint is something to really worry about. Probably not, but it'd be a fun list.
  • U-Wing - These could totally handle 41 point lowest generics. The 43 point price point seems like it was set when Advanced Sensors was 8 points, but at 10 points for AdvS, I think.
  • Extended Bonus Round:
    • E-Wing: I'd call the experiment with 3-per-list Proton Torpedo Knaves a success. It hasn't shown itself to be a real issue, and the Knave could probably drop to 52 points.
• Empire
  • TIE Fighter - 22 for an Academy means The Nueve. I don't have enough TIE Fighter experience to know if it'd be an issue.
  • TIE Advanced x1 - 36-ish doesn't seem like too big of a deal.
  • TIE Bomber - well, this used to be 28. I know it had to go up before, but if everything else went down as well, might be OK. I hate Barrage Rockets, they cause so many problems.
  • TIE Interceptor - 32 is the 6x breakpoint. A lot of red dice, but they're swishy enough. Maybe it's fine. Kinda hard to tell. Saber probably needs to go down a point as well.
  • TIE Striker - Ditto the Interceptor.
  • TIE Reaper - 39 point Scarif Base Pilot? I dunno. In this brave new world, probably fine.
  • Extended Bonus Round:
    • TIE Phantom: this kind of already got the treatment somewhat, didn't it? Imdaar had the 1-point drop back in January, and the Sigma Squadron Ace probably needs to go up anyhow. Get Torrented, Phantom Scum!
    • TIE Defender: I keep being fine without Defender changes. Two did just make the cut at the Atlanta SOS, so maybe they aren't totally hopeless ships. Meanwhile, they've always seemed like the kind of ship which, while not always popular or successful at large tournaments, can be problems for casual and new players.
• Scum - kinda no new breakpoints happen in Hyperspace Scum
  • Custom YT-1300 - Almost surely fine at 44.
  • Escape Craft - No changes.
  • Fang Fighter - 42 points also seems fine.
  • Firespray - Doesn't seem like 64 rather than 66 causes any new dangers.
  • Mining TIE - Not any more of an issue at 23 instead of 24.
  • Starviper - 44 for a Black Sun Enforcer is also probably fine.
  • Z-95 - Scum Binayre probably only would go down to 23, and will still probably be mostly irrelevant until there are good Illicit options.
  • Extended Bonus Round:
    • Kihraxz - Five. Cartel. Marauders. kind of lose out on their best gimmick when X-Wings are also 5-per-list ships.
    • M3-A Scyk - Probably fine at 27. I can't think of scary Weapons Hardpoint breakpoints which would get triggered.
• Resistance
  • Star Fortress - I can't really see it being a problem at 55-56, if it isn't a problem now.
  • RZ-2 A-Wing - This one is probably more Torrent-treatment. 32 is probably fine for Blue Recruit, but the named pilots have long been acknowledged as too cheap.
  • Scavenged YT-1300 - I think the weaker dial, actions, and statline compared to the Modified YT-1300 could justify a 3-per-list option for a 3-dice turret. Kind of reminds me of the E-Wing. Those turned out fine with 3-per list, so testing this version seems fine.
  • T-70 X-Wing - 44 points for a Blue Rookiee doesn't at all seem like an issue. A decent number of options for droid/cannon/tech combos. Pattern Analyzer and BB Astromech would be a super fun combo, despite BB not working while stressed.
• First Order
  • TIE/fo - Epsilons to 27 (and Zetas down to 28) doesn't seem like an issue. They wouldn't hit Ocho levels, so it's fine.
  • TIE/sf - I'm actually a bit worried about 6-per-list Zeta Survivors at 33 points. They've got a lot of toughness and their rear guns matter.
  • TIE Silencer - Kinda already got the ARC drop in price for the Sienar Jaemus Engineers. Getting the drop again to go to 4x might be an issue, just in a raw-statline sense.
  • Upsilon - The Starkiller Base Pilot probably would able to take a 2 point drop or so. Well... maybe. There are potential Dormitz/Hyperspace Tracking issues which I think would best be solved with an errata to Dormitz to only allow extended deployment for small and medium base ships, but some way or another it could be fixed. Other than forward-deploying Upsilons, it wouldn't be an issue.
• Republic
  • Already handled.
• Separatist
  • Are these already handled like Republic?

This is why you go UP to named pilots; not DOWN to generics

You're going to break critical ship mass with too many cost cuts

So basically, most rebel beef ships would cost around 51 (Wolfe) give or take 1-2 points and Wedge would be more

1 minute ago, ficklegreendice said:

This is why you go UP to named pilots; not DOWN to generics

You're going to break critical ship mass with too many cost cuts

I dunno. I've got half an idea that a decent number of these breakpoints wouldn't really matter.

Like, X-Wings at 5? Maybe scary. But when 5 X-Wings was scary, they also had the wicked-busted-strong Flight Assist Astromech, and there were fewer ships at similar breakpoints. But FOA Biebers and TIE x1s and Cartel Marauders are already there, and it's no big deal. Vulture Alpha Strike wound up being a lot less terrifying that I'd expected, and while they're squishier than Interceptors and Strikers, the Imperial-Agile-3-Reds aren't that hard to two-shot. And if a bunch of ships get breakpoints at once, it's not necessarily a case of one new winning list, but an entire whole new world. I don't know how'd think about that world.

But on the other hand, a wider application of The Torrent Treatment might not be too bad. I mean, Wedge/Cassian/Braylen/4th could probably see a 2-3 point increase on every pilot without seeming too unfair, forcing the list to make a few harder choices. Many Talent generics +1 point, many middle-ground named pilots +2 points, with highest level aces +3 points...

• (+1) Red and Blade Vets at 44
• (+2) Biggs and Thane up to 50; Ten and Braylen to 48/49
• Wedge to 55 (+3)

Kinda also seems fine.

At the current power level, I'm confident that 5 X-wings or 3X 2B would be stupid good. I'd sure looooove to try it. Almost certainly a bad idea. Raise prices, don't lower. Much, much less likely to create a problem.

5 B-wings might be less good but would be super annoying.

1 minute ago, gamblertuba said:

At the current power level, I'm confident that 5 X-wings or 3X 2B would be stupid good. I'd sure looooove to try it. Almost certainly a bad idea. Raise prices, don't lower. Much, much less likely to create a problem.

5 B-wings might be less good but would be super annoying.

Probably correct.

But it's far easier to do a forum post lowering the prices of a single generic rather than all the pilots of 30 ships or so...

Not too difficult

Rebel Beef has become pretty notorious, and basically all the ships involved are right in line with the 104th's base cost (-1 or 2 points) so you could project new points pretty easily

26 minutes ago, ficklegreendice said:

Not too difficult

Rebel Beef has become pretty notorious, and basically all the ships involved are right in line with the 104th's base cost (-1 or 2 points) so you could project new points pretty easily

What would Wedge be with oddball pricing? At least 58, right? Luke probably closes in on 70, as would Vader.

3 minutes ago, millertime059 said:

What would Wedge be with oddball pricing? At least 58, right? Luke probably closes in on 70, as would Vader.

Yeah wedge would be 57/58

Uncertain Luke would increase. He's already priced around I 4 Aethersprites (with Delta config), getting +1 I and a "better" (re: action independent dice modifying) ability at the cost of using an X instead of a Sprite

The Xwing isn't a bad chassis, but it's NO aethersprite. **** thing, especially with fine-tuned controls, is an incredible ship

Yeah I can get on board with that.

I think the thing hurting Luke more than anything is the cheap pilots of Rebel beef, particularly Wedge. Like requires sacrifices elsewhere in 4 beef, Wedge does not. If that list required compromise or sacrifice, I think Luke would see much more play.

The more I think about it, the more I hope they retune the cost of everyone else to fall in line with the Republic's pricing. It really feels like they costed initiative correctly, especially with regards to Anakin vs the I5s, or the I5s vs the I4s.

That said, I feel like the non-I2 clones could go down a little in cost. Oddball is like 2 points too much, in both ships. All the named torrents could drop 2 points. The named ARCs are otherwise pretty decently priced, but I think Sinker could go down to Wolffe's price.

We can't apply a flat point-change per initiative because it makes a much bigger difference on some ships than on others. How much advantage would an I6 YV-666 get? Honestly it's probably losing much more than it gains due to how easily it will be bumped. Now if we change that to a TIE/in, there's a HUGE difference (which is why the Alphas hardly see play even though they're already more aggressively costed than many other 3-attack ships).

I think a 6-alpha swarm would be perfectly fine (it ends up being a 5-alpha swarm in practice 😛), though I would be quite wary of 5 X-Wings due to their resilience and versatility. By the same token, Wedge doesn't need nearly as big of a price jump as the likes of Soontir and Duchess because he doesn't have that much repositioning available. If you give him torps and R4 so he can just keep the foils closed and pretend he's an interceptor for a couple turns, you end up spending as much as you would for a more interceptor-type pilot anyway. Probably closer to 55-56 would be fair for him, and I'm not convinced Luke needs to go up by much at all (he's been doing pretty poorly competitively lately, though if I5-6 becomes rarer, he'd probably shine again).

But once the I5-I6 aces go up, this lets the I4 mini-aces come out and play! Give me my awesome Kulbee-Jek-Jake-Wulf list! Can tank against aces and ace against tanks (it's already okay but gets eaten alive by 5s who get higher initiative for a similar price )! If the points are in line, we should be seeing equal viability for all initiatives across all chassis, including the ones that don't get much benefit for higher initiative.

On 5/25/2019 at 4:27 PM, Bucknife said:

I'm gonna voice an unpopular opinion as one who list builds most factions on a very regular basis: most of FFGs costing on ships and pilots is ABSOLUTELY spot on.

Testers have figured out a lot of things that the meta has not, and costing tends to be based on the most abusive combination of elements.

Something may not make sense in a vacuum, but just wait until you come up with that ONE CRAZY THING that you just have to do ....

... And it's 201 points.

First of al no. They haven't figured it out.

15 hours ago, ClassicalMoser said:

We can't apply a flat point-change per initiative because it makes a much bigger difference on some ships than on others. How much advantage would an I6 YV-666 get? Honestly it's probably losing much more than it gains due to how easily it will be bumped. Now if we change that to a TIE/in, there's a HUGE difference (which is why the Alphas hardly see play even though they're already more aggressively costed than many other 3-attack ships)

You have to keep in mind that while having a higher initiative may not give you a repositioning advantage, what it does do is take it away from your opponent - which is powerful.

This seemed like the most appropriate thread to post this in because I just didn't feel like making a new thread about it.

Calibrated Laser Targeting still seems really weird to me points-wise and I can't think of a reason to ever take it over 7B. 7B just offers significantly more advantages and is always worth the cost. Even if your list is over points, there's always something else you'd rather cut than take the drop from 7B to CLT. Four CLT Jedi not only has fewer hit points than three 7B Jedi, it also throws fewer red dice (unless you can reliably get modded bullseye shots). Even with the higher cost, 7B is just plain better in just about every circumstance. That being said, I don't think 7B Jedi are at all overpowered compared to the rest of the game, which means that CLT is too expensive for what you get. However, make CLT too cheap and there's no reason to ever run an Aethersprite without a config, and we're already pretty close to that territory as it is.

So I thought of two solutions as sort of 'fixes' that might make CLT worth taking. One of them is significantly more realistic than the other one, so we'll start with that one.

1) Increase 7B slightly while also reducing base Jedi costs by the same amount. This would not change the overall price of 7B Jedi, which seems to be reasonably balanced, but would reduce the cost of fielding naked Aethersprites and make something like a no-config support Jedi viable. This also leaves more room in the middle for a moderately-priced CLT. I also think that scaling both configs by initiative is a bit awkward, and that CLT could just as easily scale by the number of Force charges available to the pilot. As this solution only adjusts point costs, it's perfectly doable.

2) Add a red evade to CLT. This would necessitate errata and therefore falls under the category of HAHA YEAH RIGHT NOOB but I think it would actually justify the cost of CLT compared to 7B while also sharpening the identity of the CLT Aethersprite. This would give you three very distinct variants--stripped down and inexpensive with no configuration; an agile but fragile interceptor with CLT; a superiority fighter with 7B--each with a justifiably different price point. A red evade wouldn't exactly be broken, especially since Jedi don't have access to Debris Gambit and their blues aren't super stellar without an R4 astromech. This config would be a bit more expensive for lower-initiative pilots than the current version, probably costing something like 10-12 points less than 7B at all initiatives.