Just now, InfinityIncarnate said:

But Yoda's "discription" isn't actually proof of anything, and if you take it as proof, then it says that the dark side isn't stronger, not that the light side is stronger or that the dark side is weaker, it ONLY says that the dark side isn't equal.
Furthermore, it's stated in the core rule book that both sides are equally strong - so it doesn't matter what Yoda says. Furthermore, it's even stated in the books that it being seductive is just what SOME say it is. So really, I think Yoda's quote can be dismissed, as the core book clearly states, both are equally strong, and it's not specifically defined as being more seductive.

That was pretty disjointed right there. .
Both sides have the same number of force points and will get the same amount of force points over time. So yeah neither side is stronger. But the dark side is easier more reliable. And the light side is more likely to get more points. So the dice make the force have the same power level with slightly different odds. Which should mean you have no complaint. yet you complain endlessly.

57 minutes ago, tunewalker said:

and the light side is NOT stronger in this system. The statistics page showed that. You are wrong about what you think the stats are we have already showed that. They are balanced just as the core rule book states, but the dark side is quicker easier more seductive because it becomes more reliable faster. The light side "higher" is only a small chance, dark still has the chance, but the difference in chance beyond force rating of 1 is negligible, and force rating of 1 is negligible chance to do anything with the force reliably.

That certainly depends on how you view being stronger, because as it is now, the light side becomes more and more reliable at getting more double points at the cost of reliability, and slightly more reliable at getting single points.
Where the dark side becomes more and more reliable at getting single points, at the cost of reliability for double points, and only gets slightly more reliable at getting double points. This is only furthered as FR increases, not diminished.

Extra points generated than the points needed to activate the force power, translates into potential upgrades.
Where light side being able to more reliably generate double points means, that light side can more reliably spend more points to upgrade their force powers, than dark side users of the same FR.

53 minutes ago, HappyDaze said:

So what fix/change do you propose? Have you tried it? How did it work out for you? Does it make enough difference to bother with?

There are only really two "fixes" I can come up with, and one of them isn't a fix but a complete rework of how to generate points, which is one I'm working on already. The other one would be to customize the dice to have an equal point distribution per side.

So basically a distribution spread like:
5 Dark Single Points / 5 Light Single Points / 1 Dark Double Points / 1 Light Double Points. = 7 Points each.
4 Dark Single Points / 4 Light Single Points / 2 Dark Double Points / 2 Light Double Points. = 8 Points each.

Both are examples of an equal spread, though the last one is a compromise, as there are only 6 sides per force side to work with, it does present some issues.
The first option comes from removing one dark single point and mirroring it for the light side.
The second option comes from trying to get the 8 points.

The "fix" I'm working on uses the built in dice framework for the various checks but tries to mirror the force dice, although a balanced force dice.

53 minutes ago, Daeglan said:

That was pretty disjointed right there. .
Both sides have the same number of force points and will get the same amount of force points over time. So yeah neither side is stronger. But the dark side is easier more reliable. And the light side is more likely to get more points. So the dice make the force have the same power level with slightly different odds. Which should mean you have no complaint. yet you complain endlessly.

Sorry to say, but that doesn't make it balanced. Having an equal amount points spread out don't make it balanced when it's not on the same amount of sides. One side will get become more reliable at getting double points where the other side will become more reliable at getting single points, which should be obvious why thats imbalanced. The main thing that actually creates the imbalance is the point distribution per side - the different odds as you call it.

Not according to the statistician. So I think I will go with her. over time they will get the same number of force pips. so they are equally strong.

Yes, and that is intentional and matches with canon and Legends. The Dark Side takes a heavier and heavier toll once it has its claws into you. And is less and less reliable once you turn to the Dark Side. That's fully intentional . That's how the Dark Side works.

6 minutes ago, Daeglan said:

Not according to the statistician. So I think I will go with her. over time they will get the same number of force pips. so they are equally strong.

So you're going with the perfect average, which by the way, you can't use to determine if it's balanced or not, as you could be rolling a million times or more, but still don't reach the perfect average. So no, they're not equally strong because the point distribution is skew. The only way it would be balanced and they would be equally strong, is if the force dice had a EQUAL point distribution, which it does not. If they were to become equally strong over time, they would at FR10 have the same potential at the same odds - and they do not!

10 minutes ago, Tramp Graphics said:

Yes, and that is intentional and matches with canon and Legends. The Dark Side takes a heavier and heavier toll once it has its claws into you. And is less and less reliable once you turn to the Dark Side. That's fully intentional . That's how the Dark Side works.

It actually doesn't match with Canon, because in Canon, we see it's actually possible to "dip" in for more power, but at the cost of oneself. The force dice should be equally balanced but have mechanics reflect this sort of thing.
The force dice does a really poor job in my opinion of reflecting that, as it does that with only one force dice, which fundamentally affects the entire dice. The part of "dipping" to get more power at the cost of one self, however is reflected in the mechanic that you can use a destiny point, suffer strain and conflict to use dark side points and making the force power dark sided in process. Same goes for using it to turn light side points to dark side points, which is a good way to reflect it. And this mechanic would stay true to this, even if the force dice was balanced equally.

You saying it becomes less and less reliable, isn't supported by the lore. But it does have a heavy toll on a dark side user and is very difficult to redeem and "free" one self from it, and requires utmost dedication to it. And there is nothing in the core rule book that specifies this, not to my knowledge. But if you have a reference please, by all means, share it.

Yes, it is supported by the lore; very much so, particularly in Legends material, but also in newer canon. In fact, the old WEG game made a huge deal about how the Dark Side demanded more and more from the user for the same amount of power, much like an addictive drug.

6 minutes ago, InfinityIncarnate said:

So you're going with the perfect average, which by the way, you can't use to determine if it's balanced or not, as you could be rolling a million times or more, but still don't reach the perfect average. So no, they're not equally strong because the point distribution is skew. The only way it would be balanced and they would be equally strong, is if the force dice had a EQUAL point distribution, which it does not. If they were to become equally strong over time, they would at FR10 have the same potential at the same odds - and they do not!

It actually doesn't match with Canon, because in Canon, we see it's actually possible to "dip" in for more power, but at the cost of oneself. The force dice should be equally balanced but have mechanics reflect this sort of thing.
The force dice does a really poor job in my opinion of reflecting that, as it does that with only one force dice, which fundamentally affects the entire dice. The part of "dipping" to get more power at the cost of one self, however is reflected in the mechanic that you can use a destiny point, suffer strain and conflict to use dark side points and making the force power dark sided in process. Same goes for using it to turn light side points to dark side points, which is a good way to reflect it. And this mechanic would stay true to this, even if the force dice was balanced equally.

You saying it becomes less and less reliable, isn't supported by the lore. But it does have a heavy toll on a dark side user and is very difficult to redeem and "free" one self from it, and requires utmost dedication to it. And there is nothing in the core rule book that specifies this, not to my knowledge. But if you have a reference please, by all means, share it.

Umm yeah. if you take the idea that a lightsider has to be PERFECT. Then yes it doesn't reflect that. But it does reflect a more realistic view that lightside force users do tap a little into the darkside at times to accomplish their goals. But as they get more practiced they do that less as they strive for more control over themselves. ALso you keep ignore the other part of the equation. Which is as a force user gets more skilled in force powers they need fewer pips to accomplish more. For example if a force user buys all the strength upgrades for more they can use 2 force pips to move a freighter. so over time they have more force dice but need fewer pips to accomplish their goals. So a lightsider will be able to do what they want with more reliability and have the option to do more more often.

Another thing I am getting from you is you are acting like conflict is darkside. It is not. It is your characters internal conflict about your characters choices. The die roll at the end of the session is how your character squares what they did with their own morality. Did they shift them selves darker or lighter to deal with it?

1 hour ago, InfinityIncarnate said:

So you're going with the perfect average, which by the way, you can't use to determine if it's balanced or not, as you could be rolling a million times or more, but still don't reach the perfect average. So no, they're not equally strong because the point distribution is skew. The only way it would be balanced and they would be equally strong, is if the force dice had a EQUAL point distribution, which it does not. If they were to become equally strong over time, they would at FR10 have the same potential at the same odds - and they do not!  

It actually doesn't match with Canon, because in Canon, we see it's actually possible to "dip" in for more power, but at the cost of oneself. The force dice should be equally balanced but have mechanics reflect this sort of thing.
The force dice does a really poor job in my opinion of reflecting that, as it does that with only one force dice, which fundamentally affects the entire dice. The part of "dipping" to get more power at the cost of one self, however is reflected in the mechanic that you can use a destiny point, suffer strain and conflict to use dark side points and making the force power dark sided in process. Same goes for using it to turn light side points to dark side points, which is a good way to reflect it. And this mechanic would stay true to this, even if the force dice was balanced equally.

You saying it becomes less and less reliable, isn't supported by the lore. But it does have a heavy toll on a dark side user and is very difficult to redeem and "free" one self from it, and requires utmost dedication to it. And there is nothing in the core rule book that specifies this, not to my knowledge. But if you have a reference please, by all means, share it.

even if you DO NOT go by the perfect average, anything higher than FR 1 sees both the dark and Light even out. You DO NOT have significantly greater odds of getting 6 white pips on 3 Force dice than you do of getting 6 black pips on 3 black dice because of the number of dice you are rolling greatly reduces the odds of seeing double pips on all dice. In addition to this, there is very little use for more force pips than 4 or 5 which means the "extras" generated by the light are superfluous and not actually useful. The light side IS NOT stronger. Not by statistics, not in actual game play. Sit down play the game, create a FR 3 character, play them as a paragon.... then play them as a dark sider, 100% guaranteed the Dark Sider will be much more ok with taking powers that require the little force pips while the lightsider will probably stick closer to using his force dice for commiting and that is it. The big reason being is because dark pips and light pips will generate about equal at this point. The Most common roll happening around 25% of the time at FR 3 is 2 Dark, 2 Light (1 dark on 2 dice and 2 light on 1) literally the exact same whether you are dark or are light, but the difference is while they will both be able to achieve the same thing with the 2, it is much more likely the dark sider will be ok with the strain and the destiny flip then the light sider will be with the strain the flip and the conflict becaus they have to stay paragon. If you do not believe the system works by statistics try playing it and you will realize stats DONT LIE.


I mean if you want to just take out the stats then I guess they are even still because there are 8 pips of each on both and BOTH have at least 1 side that has a double pip, which means they both can have the same highest potential (2 per die) and they both have the same average potential. Meaning they are the same, that is balance. Dark is just more reliable at low force ratings not because of pip numbers but because of number of sides that are dark and because a dark side user is going to be much more ok with taking 2 strain and a flip and not worrying about conflict (light doesnt grant nor take away conflict) then a light sider is going ot be ok with taking 1 or 2 strain a destiny point AND 2 conflict. That conflict adds up very fast.


Edit: if you make them even like that, it wont really change anything except allow light side users the freedom to not have to take conflict as often at FR 1 and 2, beyond that it does not change a whole lot of anything at all. Probably lowers Dark side reliability a lot, makes it not so tempting to be dark any more as being able to reliably use your force powers or your force powers upgrades is what it is all about. Ultimately it changes nothing for FR3 and higher though because the odds are already starting to coalesce into one another by that point.

On the (much earlier) point about use of destiny points for use of opposite colour pips, there is an additional balance point to consider.

You cannot spent more than one destiny point on a roll, so cannot both use one to upgrade a check and spend opposite colour pips. This means that a check where you don’t use the force (so most non force users) can be easily upgraded, whereas force checks you would usually not upgrade, to allow wrong pip spending if needed.

The result is more triumphs for non force users, given equal destiny point spend, and a free flow of destiny points.

13 hours ago, Darzil said:

On the (much earlier) point about use of destiny points for use of opposite colour pips, there is an additional balance point to consider.

You cannot spent more than one destiny point on a roll, so cannot both use one to upgrade a check and spend opposite colour pips. This means that a check where you don’t use the force (so most non force users) can be easily upgraded, whereas force checks you would usually not upgrade, to allow wrong pip spending if needed.

The result is more triumphs for non force users, given equal destiny point spend, and a free flow of destiny points.

The only caveat to this is signature abilities. They require the spending of two Destiny Points to use until you get the upgrade which reduces this cost.

On 6/4/2019 at 10:36 AM, Darzil said:

On the (much earlier) point about use of destiny points for use of opposite colour pips, there is an additional balance point to consider.

You  cannot  spent more than one destiny point on a roll, so cannot  both use one to upgrade a check and spend opposite colour  pips. This means that a check where you don’t use  the force (so most non force users) can be easily    upgraded  , whereas force checks you would usually not   upgrade, to allow wrong pip spending if needed.       

The result is more triumphs for non force user  s, given equal destiny point spend, and a free flow of destiny points.

Oh? We had this discussion at the table last week and came down unanimously on the ruling that spending destiny points to use dark/light pips didn't count as spending on modifying the roll.

Part of the reasoning was that it would cause even more instances when you were "blocked off" from being tempted by the dark side, something we've found quite annoying when the temptation was at it's strongest but there were no DPs to flip. Is there an official ruling on this?

As for the rest of the thread, I'm half expecting the OP to dismiss the possibility of there being a forest by citing the abundance of trees as evidence.

Page 36, Force and Destiny Core, "A player can only spend one light side Destiny Point during a single action, and so should think very carefully about how to use destiny before doing so".

No mention of one roll, and rules lawyers could play around with doing an action as a manouver I guess (and get slapped down at my table).

9 hours ago, Darzil said:

Page 36, Force and Destiny Core, "A player can only spend one light side Destiny Point during a single action, and so should think very carefully about how to use destiny before doing so".

No mention of one roll, and rules lawyers could play around with doing an action as a manouver I guess (and get slapped down at my table).

Good point! Not sure I'm a huge fan, but since I'm experimenting with lightside force users not needing a DP to use darkside pips (but suffering twice the conflict) it may be a moot point at my table anyway.

10 hours ago, Darzil said:

Page 36, Force and Destiny Core, "A player can only spend one light side Destiny Point during a single action, and so should think very carefully about how to use destiny before doing so".

No mention of one roll, and rules lawyers could play around with doing an action as a manouver I guess (and get slapped down at my table).

For what it's worth, the guys that designed the game (Jay Little and Sam Stewart) have run with the "one Destiny Point per action," in that if you spend a Destiny Point to upgrade a check, then you can't in that same action spend a Destiny Point to convert dark pips to Force points or activate talents that require spending a Destiny Point.

22 minutes ago, Donovan Morningfire said:

For what it's worth, the guys that designed the game (Jay Little and Sam Stewart) have run with the "one Destiny Point per action," in that if you spend a Destiny Point to upgrade a check, then you can't in that same action spend a Destiny Point to convert dark pips to Force points or activate talents that require spending a Destiny Point.

this makes sense to me since rolling a check is considered "one action" and if you are rolling the force dice with your ability check then you are doing a "combined check" which is still part of the same check and thus part of the same action and thus 1 destiny point 1 ACTION..... to me this also includes narrative "adding a fact" usage of the destiny points where if you rolled and flipped you could not flip again for narrative changes.

1 hour ago, penpenpen said:

Good point! Not sure I'm a huge fan, but since I'm experimenting with lightside force users not needing a DP to use darkside pips (but suffering twice the conflict) it may be a moot point at my table anyway.

You probably don't need to double up the conflict penalty, just being able to make that choice whenever without a mechanical limitation is likely going to be enough for the kind of player who is willing to dip their leg into the Dark Side for success. In my experience, if they are the kind of player who actively doesn't want to go Dark, and makes the conscious choice to avoid using the Dark at every opportunity, even doubling the Conflict isn't going to be enough to really push them, as they aren't likely to make that choice often enough to matter. So for them, it will likely even out.

Then again, I don't know your players, they might be the kind of people who go off the rails once that limitation is removed

I just read the dathomir preview in fall of the republic, it seems the witches are going to be a grey force tradition.

4 hours ago, amidonricky said:

I just read the dathomir preview in fall of the republic, it seems the witches are going to be a grey force tradition.

Not really. They are darksiders. But not Sith.

4 hours ago, Daeglan said:

Not really. They are darksiders. But not Sith.

Agreed. Nightsisters are dark side Force users.

In Legends we get the Imperial Knights, which while not Jedi, are certainly light side Force users (though I doubt many of them would be paragons).

Legends also gave us the Jensaarai, and they are a rather murky gray. I believe that most of them were light side Force users too, but I can where some might have dipped dark from time to time. In this system you can do that by being very pragmatic with the Conflict system and balancing what seems most effective vs what is morally right. Effectively it comes out as a shade of gray overall even if you're only light or dark in any given moment.

4 hours ago, HappyDaze said:

Agreed. Nightsisters are dark side Force users.

In Legends we get the Imperial Knights, which while not Jedi, are certainly light side Force users (though I doubt many of them would be paragons).

Legends also gave us the Jensaarai, and they are a rather murky gray. I believe that most of them were light side Force users too, but I can where some might have dipped dark from time to time. In this system you can do that by being very pragmatic with the Conflict system and balancing what seems most effective vs what is morally right. Effectively it comes out as a shade of gray overall even if you're only light or dark in any given moment.

exactly

13 hours ago, amidonricky said:

I just read the dathomir preview in fall of the republic, it seems the witches are going to be a grey force tradition.

8 hours ago, Daeglan said:

Not really. They are darksiders. But not Sith.

2 hours ago, Daeglan said:

exactly

@Daeglan is correct here. The Nightsisters are a Dark Side cult. That being said, not all Dathomiri Witches were Nightsisters. There were Light Side clans of witches on Dathomir, particularly in Legends.

While the Jedi and Sith might view the Nightsisters as agents of the dark side, the Nightsisters care little about the war between the two groups. The Nightsisters know no serenity or peace like the Jedi, yet they do not give in to rage or overt passion like the Sith. Instead, they freely cross the line between light and dark, embroiled in and thriving in conflict.

This is from the preview, and to me it seems to be saying that they are a grey force tradition.

After all it clearly says that they freely cross the line between light and dark side force use.

51 minutes ago, amidonricky said:

After all it clearly says that they freely cross the line between light and dark side force use.

It's easy to cross the line from light to dark, but it never says they come back from crossing it.

6 minutes ago, HappyDaze said:

It's easy to cross the line from light to dark, but it never says they come back from crossing it.

3 hours ago, Tramp Graphics said:

@Daeglan is correct here. The Nightsisters are a Dark Side cult. That being said, not all Dathomiri Witches were Nightsisters. There were Light Side clans of witches on Dathomir, particularly in Legends.

In fact it is easier to fall too far if you are willing to freely use the both the dark and the light.