13 hours ago, SnooSnarry said:

How much is rebel beef a percent of swiss and the cut? I think it's around 40% of swiss if I remember correctly, which is obscene considering there are 7 factions, and meta wing is just filled with rebel beef pilots being at the top

Wait, what? That does not sound even remotely true! Where do you get that number from?

Careful with the Vultures. Took fourth at a Hyperspace trial with 8 energy shell vultures. Felt very strong. Give me 8 more points in that list and opponents will be having some bad times.

1 hour ago, svelok said:

If    a list is too good, and you respond by mak  ing   a counter list too good, you haven't helped lift all the ot  her lists up. Buffing TIE swarms to eat bunker lists  does  n't do any favors to Scum lists. 

Rebel Beef is good, but is it really ‘too good’? That’s a matter of perspective. But if we always react by crippling or killing good lists through points increases, then we haven’t really learned anything from what happened in first edition X-Wing!

If we look instead at what lists could be competitive against it, and make some improvements to bring those lists on par with it, then we start to build up a pool of top tier lists instead of simply cycling from one ‘flavour of the month’ to the next.

Maybe buffing swarms would be a good starting point, and potentially even dialling back some of the previous points increases that crippled or killed the various Scum archetypes that were doing well before the first round of points increases; it’d be interesting to see how Boba and Friends perform in the arena against Rebel Beef!

Once you create a stable pool of top tier lists, then you can start to examine what the more marginalised ships and pilots need in order to make them competitive in that arena.

Could make a case that Leia should be two crew slots (like Palp) and take away one crew slot from U-wing. That forces her back to the Falcon where she's thematically supposed to be (And also forces Falcon player into decisions of Leia or R2D2 + Kanan).

It also keeps the eventual release of the Sheathipede from being an even cheaper but still coordinate capable carrier for her.

3 minutes ago, DexterOnone said:

Rebel Beef is good, but is it really ‘too good’? That’s a matter of perspective. But if we always react by crippling or killing good lists through points increases, then we haven’t really learned anything from what happened in first edition X-Wing!

If we look instead at what lists could be competitive against it, and make some improvements to bring those lists on par with it, then we start to build up a pool of top tier lists instead of simply cycling from one ‘flavour of the month’ to the next.

I completely disagree with you there. Powercreep and bringing other ships and upgrades to the level of the current meta lists is exactly what plagued 1.0, in comparison targeted pts changes are much more recent concept and we've only gone through one season of these.

1 hour ago, DexterOnone said:

Rebel  Beef is good, but is it rea  ll  y ‘too good’? That’s a matter of pe  rspective.

Is it though? When a list or type of list makes cut at a ridiculously high rate and very high frequency, is that not an objective indicator that it brings too much of an advantage to the table?

1 hour ago, DexterOnone said:

Rebel Beef is good, but is it really ‘too good’? That’s a matter of perspective. But if we always react by crippling or killing good lists through points increases, then we haven’t really learned anything from what happened in first edition X-Wing!

If we look instead at what lists could be competitive against it, and make some improvements to bring those lists on par with it, then we start to build up a pool of top tier lists instead of simply cycling from one ‘flavour of the month’ to the next.

Maybe buffing swarms would be a good starting point, and potentially even dialling back some of the previous points increases that crippled or killed the various Scum archetypes that were doing well before the first round of points increases; it’d be interesting to see how Boba and Friends perform in the arena against Rebel Beef!

Once you create a stable pool of top tier lists, then you can start to examine what the more marginalised ships and pilots need in order to make them competitive in that arena.

Point is that Cassian, Braylen, Wedge, + Whatever is simply better than any other Rebel options. That's the bar. If a pilot or upgrade is consistently outperforming other options, it should be addressed. There is no longer a bar of "too good" that a list needs to cross in order to deserve a nerf errata. I'm not arguing that game mechanics or upgrade slots need adjustment, just small point increases to achieve more parity.

5 hours ago, gamblertuba said:

Careful with the Vultures. Took fourth at a Hyperspace trial with 8 energy shell vultures. Felt very strong. Give me 8 more points in that list and opponents will be having some bad times.

They were super good. With just two ships, I had to fly my pants off not to get annihilated with my Han/Wedge. I made the wrong move with Wedge at the end and lost half points on him, but 9/10 I think I lose that game anyways.

Would taking away Braylan's talent slot help? It'd remove him as a Selfless option.

9 minutes ago, PhantomFO said:

Would taking away Braylan's talent slot help? It'd remove him as a Selfless option.

No. It's one of those things where it's a sum of all parts and not any single one.

2 hours ago, GreenDragoon said:

Is  it though? When a list or type of list makes cut at a ridiculously high rate and very high frequency  , is tha  t not an objective indicator that it brings too much of an advantage to the table?

In a competitive environment, all it indicates is that competitive players will gravitate towards taking whatever list is perceived as the best. If a high percentage of top players all use it, even a marginal advantage could see it making the cut at a very high frequency.

1 hour ago, gamblertuba said:

P   oint  is that Cas  sian, Braylen, Wedge, + Whatever  is simply better than any other Rebel options. That's the bar. If a pilot or upgrade is consistently outperforming other options, it should be ad  dressed. There is no longer a bar of "too good" that a list needs to cross in order to deserve a ne  rf er  r    ata  . I'm not arguing that game mechanics or upgrade slots need adjustment, just sma  ll point increases to achieve more parity. 

My point is that the default assumption seems to be that if something is performing well it’s “too good”, and we have to cripple or kill it to try and achieve parity. Why can’t we just accept that it’s a good list, look at why other lists are underperforming and try to address those to achieve parity instead?

” To destroy is easier than to create, and that is why so many people are ready to demonstrate against what they reject. But what would they say if one asked them what they wanted instead?”

1 hour ago, PhantomFO said:

Would taking away Braylan's talent slot help? It'd remove him as a Selfless option.

I don't believe that taking Braylen's talent slot is appropriate (or frankly possible).

The Selfless talent is a very effective talent and FFG may be warranted in increasing the price of that talent by 1 or 2 points in the next rules update.

As an Anecdote, the one Rebel Beef team that I fought two weeks in a row comprised three ships with Selfless with Biggs flying the fourth ship. Two weeks in a row, I nailed the U-Wing with three Protops all hitting for max damage (a combo of 12 Hits & Crits on the U-Wing) but with Selfless and Biggs those 12 hits were pretty evenly spread across the whole opposition fleet. While in the same merge one of my three ships was tabled. (Yeah those merge results effectively decided the outcome of both matches).

So yeah, Selfless is a 'noice' game turner for Rebel Beef.

I've seen Braylan used well in a couple of rounds on the Gold Squadron podcasts, but as a Rebel Proponent he's not my favorite pilot. Personally I'd put someone else in his slot.

And yeah, I'm still studying this type of list (with a lot to learn), but I'm seeing that most Rebel Beef ships are flying without upgrades. So nerfing Braylant's upgrades seems to be a moot point for now.

You can work around biggs/selflessness by approaching from two different vectors. Not all of your ships have to be in their arc.

But this also is referenced in the "Things that seem hard but really are easy" thread. You don't have to fly in formation. But it is more of a challenge to time your engagements if you are coming in from different angles.

21 minutes ago, Mark Caliber said:

I don't believe that taking Braylen's talent slot is appropriate (or frankly possible).

The Selfless talent is a very effective talent and FFG may be warranted in increasing the price of that talent by 1 or 2 points in the next rules update.

As an Anecdote, the one Rebel Beef team that I fought two weeks in a row comprised three ships with Selfless with Biggs flying the fourth ship. Two weeks in a row, I nailed the U-Wing with three Protops all hitting for max damage (a combo of 12 Hits & Crits on the U-Wing) but with Selfless and Biggs those 12 hits were pretty evenly spread across the whole opposition fleet. While in the same merge one of my three ships was tabled. (Yeah those merge results effectively decided the outcome of both matches).

So yeah, Selfless is a 'noice' game turner for Rebel Beef.

I've seen Braylan used well in a couple of rounds on the Gold Squadron podcasts, but as a Rebel Proponent he's not my favorite pilot. Personally I'd put someone else in his slot.

And yeah, I'm still studying this type of list (with a lot to learn), but I'm seeing that most Rebel Beef ships are flying without upgrades. So nerfing Braylant's upgrades seems to be a moot point for now.

As far as potential changes: pretty much anything involving points or upgrade slots is possible. They already displayed a willingness to do this when they took away Leebo's crew slot to prevent C-3P0 abuse. Removing Braylan's talent slot may not be thematic, but it would at least limit the amount of synergy value Braylan provides.

I'm expecting price increases to Leia, Braylan, Wedge and Selfless in the next update. Maybe modest increases to Biggs and Cassian as well.

Odd question but I think this thread is the place to ask.

Have we seen anyone fly two U-Wings with Rebel Beef yet? I happen to have two mini's on my shelf and that's something new I could test out next month. That begs the question, who would I put in the second U-Wing?

Just now, PhantomFO said:

They   already displayed a willingness to do this when they took away Leebo's crew slot to prevent C-3P0 abuse. 

Which that wasn’t even abusive, or even all that strong, and the change has rendered both essentially unplayable.

I’m not even really a Rebel player (<10% of my games) and I think this was the worst change during the January adjustment.

1 hour ago, DexterOnone said:

My point is that the default assumption seems to be that if something is performing well it’s “too good”, and we have to cripple or kill it to try and achieve parity. Why can’t we just accept that it’s a good list, look at why other lists are underperforming and try to address those to achieve parity instead?

Do you want a powercreep? That's how you get a powercreep.

Yes. I would much rather the "good" stuff get hit with price increases/slot removal than the "bad" things get priced down to compete with them. Making stuff cheaper allows more space to play the combo wombo game.

12 minutes ago, Mark Caliber said:

Odd question but I think this thread is the place to ask.

Have we seen anyone fly two U-Wings with Rebel Beef yet? I happen to have two mini's on my shelf and that's something new I could test out next month. That begs the question, who would I put in the second U-Wing?

I think most of the named U-Wing picks would put you out of being able to take talents. You could try Hef Tober as a blocker (though you probably want him shooting more than that). Benthic fits but his ability isn't that interesting if he's only producing 1 focus token. Bodhi has enough room to let you take a Selfless. Magva and Saw are both too expensive to allow a pilot to take Selfless. You could always throw Tactical Officer on a cheap one just to coordinate more actions for your heavy hitters.

14 hours ago, MidWestScrub said:

So can Boba. Granted, he's significantly more expensive, regardless though, is that broken, or simply really good and just too cheap right now? In my opinion it's closer to the latter rather than the former.

Yeah, I agree with you. Adjusting points can fix it.

By the way, I saw you on Saturday at the Little Rock Hyperspace Trial. I was the tall guy flying the TIE swarm poorly. My 12 year old made his first cut though, so I’ll call it a success. When I saw you flying Boba Guri I assumed someone was netlisting the Boba Guri build you made famous. If I had realized it was the OG Boba Guri man I would have stopped by to tell you how much I enjoy your blog. 👍🏻

15 minutes ago, Pink_Viking said:

Do you want a powercreep? That's how you get a powercreep.

11 minutes ago, viedit said:

Yes. I would much rather the "good" stuff get hit with price increases/slot removal than the "bad" things get priced down to compete with them. Making stuff cheaper allows more space to play the combo wombo game.

Less power creep, more Harrison Bergeron.

4 minutes ago, CaptainJaguarShark said:

I think most of the named U-Wing picks would put you out of being able to take talents. You could try Hef Tober as a blocker (though you probably want him shooting more than that). Benthic fits but his ability isn't that interesting if he's only producing 1 focus token. Bodhi has enough room to let you take a Selfless. Magva and Saw are both too expensive to allow a pilot to take Selfless. You could always throw Tactical Officer on a cheap one just to coordinate more actions for your heavy hitters. 

Cassian + Saw + Wedge + Jake leaves 13 points on the table. That's plenty of room for activities.

1 minute ago, Old Sarge said:

Yeah, I agree with you. Adjusting points can fix it.

By the way, I saw you on Saturday at the Little Rock Hyperspace Trial. I was the tall guy flying the TIE swarm poorly. My 12 year old made his first cut though, so I’ll call it a success. When I saw you flying Boba Guri I assumed someone was netlisting the Boba Guri build you made famous. If I had realized it was the OG Boba Guri man I would have stopped by to tell you how much I enjoy your blog. 👍🏻

You were supposed to eat up the Rebel beef! That was your job !

@MidWestScrub has been trying to move last with a Starviper pretty much as long as I've known him. Both love him and hate him.

39 minutes ago, viedit said:

Cassian + Saw + Wedge + Jake leaves 13 points on the table. That's plenty of room for activities.

That's something interesting. I was just assuming still with Braylen. Do we still want Cassian as badly if we don't have Braylen?

I'm seriously confused why a generic 1-2 point increase to the ships that are currently a part of Rebel Beef isn't the default answer to the question. The likelihood that it kills the archetype is almost zero, and I'd much rather risk not hurting it enough than hurting it too much.