On the 40th episode of The Fifth Trooper Podcast, Rachael returns! We talk honestly about her experiences at Adepticon, Ladies of Legion and then Evan and Jay go over their RPQ experience.

https://podcast.thefifthtrooper.com/e/star-wars-legion-podcast-ep-40-sleepless-in-chicago/

Thanks as always for the show.

I personally think taking the ‘SO’ to an event as a non-gamer is a bad idea.

My wife has been with me to one event - but she played. Enjoyed it, it probably won’t do it again.

If you want to do family / couple things do it. If you want to do gamer things do it, but I wouldn’t try and mix the two unless they are interested.

I don’t know you, but from my experience I suspect part of the issue is a tinge of guilt about spending time away from SO / family and so feel that will be lessened if she comes with you.

If you want to do something together find something you both enjoy - without compromise. (Ie per the show you do Legion she does shopping / soccer you go out to dinner together - something like that).

My advice would be if you spend so much time on your hobby that you feel guilty - do less hobby. How much is too much is very personal and often changes due to circumstance.

My dream would be the Wife and/or kids would want to play games and then you can have best of both - alas, not that lucky 🙂.

Oh and well done on RPQ. But I don’t get not going to other events and ‘denying people a place’. At least go with some Airspeeders :-). Play games, have fun, see what happens.

If it works it works but there's risk involved....

I played in a tournament at adepticon. If I wasn't actually playing I'd have been bored sick, even as a huge nerd surrounded by nerd stuff.

Imagine what a non nerd would feel.

Communicate like adults and give your SO a realistic view of what the convention will be like.

As a woman that plays Legion, I can tell you without exception, men do NOT like to lose to a woman.

I think it’s completely subconscious, but they do not take it well. For the most part guys are fine with women being there and even playing, but if we win, things change. It might be that inner cave man, but it does make it less fun to play and this is not something unique to Legion.

8 minutes ago, JediPartisan said:

As a woman that plays Legion, I can tell you without exception, men do NOT like to lose to a woman.

I think it’s completely subconscious, but they do not take it well. For the most part guys are fine with women being there and even playing, but if we win, things change. It might be that inner cave man, but it does make it less fun to play and this is not something unique to Legion.

A lot of them hate losing to kids too (my son had a few wins his first few X-Wing tournaments at age 11) but luckily I have not seen many in my local X-Wing/Armada/Legion community that are bothered by women or kids beating them, usually it is that one friend they get upset with losing to.

2 hours ago, JediPartisan said:

As a woman that plays Legion, I can tell you without exception, men do NOT like to lose to a woman.

I think it’s completely subconscious, but they do not take it well. For the most part guys are fine with women being there and even playing, but if we win, things change. It might be that inner cave man, but it does make it less fun to play and this is not something unique to Legion.

Sadly, this is absolutely true.

Part of the issue is that far too many gamers are "man-children" and some of them cannot take losing, period, because they let so much of their ego get tied up in their performance at what is ultimately a freakin' beer-n-pretzels dice game. I'm mostly familiar with the X-Wing Community, which is full of tryhards, and I've seen grown men just spiral out of control after losing. I once had a guy on the table next to me at Gencon throw his damage deck down in a rage and his cards spewed everywhere, disrupting pieces not just on his table but our table and another table as well. One time a game store owner had to literally call the police because two 40k grognards got into it over a casual game of 40k.

It also doesn't help that geek cultures tend to already have a higher-than-average amount of people with socialization issues, and few of them have had any experience in competitive events like sports, where they could have had the values of sportsmanship instilled at a younger age.



To the OP's original point, there is nothing more cringey at events than watching some poor significant other just follow his/her partner around during the event, sitting there each round like some sort of Stockholm-syndromed captive. Watching other people play a game like Legion or Armada or X-Wing is about as fun as watching paint very slowly dry, but you have to roll piles of dice for each molecule of paint to see if it gives up its water each round, and that's assuming you're heavily steeped in the game's mechanics, meta, and community. To have to sit there and watch multiple rounds of a game you know nothing about it... **** that's basically abusive.

If you want to do couple stuff, for the love of god do couple stuff together you both enjoy. If you can't otherwise justify taking an entire day (or weekend) away from work and away from family to game, maybe that's a good sign you shouldn't be attending that event or ought to curb your amount of gaming. Life is all about balance.

1 hour ago, AllWingsStandyingBy said:

-
It also doesn't help that geek cultures tend to already have a higher-than-average amount of people with socialization issues, and few of them have had any experience in competitive events like sports, where they could have had the values of sportsmanship instilled at a younger age.

-

You know, us social weirdos always get the blame for this stuff, but nine times out of ten in my experience the people throwing a massive s***fit over losing are the "normal" players who make a big deal out of the whole competition/sportsmanship stuff. They come to the game with huge preconceptions about how everyone is expected to behave, and all it takes is for them to be having a bad day and their opponent being "too lucky" or not taking things seriously enough for their taste, and they go off on one.

Maybe if normies treated it less like a Big Serious Sportsball Game, they would end up RAEGing out less when their over-developed sense of fairness and propriety are offended by the dice, or by their opponent having the audacity to see the "match" as nothing more than a fun game.

I have found poor sports, WAAC come in all types, the "social weirdos", former jocks, "normies" it is a finer personality type itself. No one likes losing, but the only time I have gotten upset is when I do something stupid to lose or a time or two over some dice, but it has always been targeted toward myself and try to keep it away from my opponent.

7 hours ago, JediPartisan said:

As a woman that plays Legion, I can tell you without exception, men do NOT like to lose to a woman.

I think it’s completely subconscious, but they do not take it well. For the most part guys are fine with women being there and even playing, but if we win, things change. It might be that inner cave man, but it does make it less fun to play and this is not something unique to Legion.

A little absolute in the broad sweeping statement, while I’m sure it’s true in many instances, I am not a fan of absolute judgement of any groups of people.

i know when my wife kicks my *** I’m always proud and complementary.

Re: Gamers, losing, waac, etc: While I will try to be careful not to generalize, I kind of see both sides. There are absolutely some men who have a hard time losing to women or children. They are typically no fun to play with, even as a man. I also see some women who when they participate in a mixed setting go out of their way to push “you got beaten by a girl!” These people are also no fun to play against. I’ve seen this in every activity, from sports as a kid, chess in middle school, onward into gaming as an adult.

If we want everything to be about the game and fun, we have to let go both sides of this equation. Being beaten by someone unlike yourself is nothing other than a good game. Period. Beating someone unlike yourself is also nothing other than a good game. Period.

Re: the original topic about bringing an SO to a tournament: unless your SO also enjoys the activity and is participating in the event, don’t. Just don’t. It’s not worth it — your SO will get bored. Your SO will not enjoy themselves, and you won’t really feel less guilty about being away. Set appropriate bounds of how much time away versus together is fine, then do that. I’m by no means a relationship expert, but I’m still willing to keep trying on making mine better.

In my reply earlier I forgot to add THE most important thing:

Do what works for you.

Every relationship is different, if your SO enjoys hanging out with you whilst you play toy soldiers then awesome, enjoy. I used to go to the biggest gaming event in the world, “ETC” regularly and many of the teams had their SOs with them and all seemed to be having a good time (maybe that was the key though - the team had 4-5 SOs there so they all hung out together).

Re sore losers vs women - sorry that’s been your experience. From what I’ve seen in 25 years of playing at events I wouldn’t think it was normal (although would definitely think it happens sometimes). About a third to half of the people are a bit salty when they lose (not bad, just a bit glum) and it’s possible that would increase versus a woman / child etc but I would be very surprised if it’s “All” unless you happen to live in a particularity unenlightened part of the world.

My wife comes with me to most tournaments of any game I play (Legion, Xwing, L5R, that sort of thing). It is completely her choice. She brings stuff with her to do (she makes jewelry) and for the most part, I leave her be. She figures she can either do work at home by herself or be out around other people who are having fun and being creative. That is what works very specifically for us.

As for males losing to females, in the card games I play two of the best players in my area are a particular young lesbian couple. You either get used to getting wrecked by them or you don't play. The males in the play group are used to it.

To Fifth Trooper, thank you for covering this topic; it's the first time I've seen this addressed in a podcast. Granted, I haven't listened to a lot of different gaming podcasts, but I think it's good that y'all are willing to tackle this subject. So thank you.

Like a lot of people commenting here, I think it's important to be honest with your SO what the event will likely involve for them. If they want to play, that's wonderful (one of my friends' SO managed to place at a recent wargaming event against some tough competition and had a lot of fun), but otherwise it's time that couples can take from one another, which personally I think is important in any relationship.

Fifth Trooper Podcast: Congrats on the RPQ win. Glad you had the "perfect game" you talked about so you don't beat yourself up over "did I really win?" I know what that's like. Unless your RPQ was different, I think you guys missed the "theme" of the prizes. Every "layer" so to speak alternated between Imperial and Rebel, so we could have balance. The token bags were Rebel, followed by Imperial tokens, followed by two levels of mixed prizes. The choices of alt-art were odd, but their structure wasn't a problem. As someone who plays the Generic commander a lot, I would have loved to have either an Imperial alt-art commander OR the alt-art Rebel commander mini given out as a prize along with the plastic card as you guys mentioned.

Thanks for the advice on bringing your SO to events. I've been debating going to another RPQs or the Invitational next year and bringing the wife along. I'm going to have her listen to your discussion, and see what we learn from your experience.

Everyone: I'm actually interested in seeing what everyone thinks about attending more RPQ after winning one. I've kinda wondered what the etiquette is about that. There are two-four more that are close enough to drive (several hours at least, some longer) but I'd love to see how the meta changes this summer, and keep getting experience before the Invitational. That said, I don't want to ruin anyone else's chances of getting in. I really, really doubt I could do well enough to win another one (I'm chalking that one up to the die gods taking pity on me), but what would you guys do in that situation? At what point should I bow out? Or should I just not go?

Just play games. Don’t stress about “winning too much”.

4 hours ago, Alpha17 said:

Everyone: I'm actually interested in seeing what everyone thinks about attending more RPQ after winning one. I've kinda wondered what the etiquette is about that. There are two-four more that are close enough to drive (several hours at least, some longer) but I'd love to see how the meta changes this summer, and keep getting experience before the Invitational. That said, I don't want to ruin anyone else's chances of getting in. I really, really doubt I could do well enough to win another one (I'm chalking that one up to the die gods taking pity on me), but what would you guys do in that situation? At what point should I bow out? Or should I just not go?

It depends. I have seen people in X-Wing that have won a Regional and go on and play in 5-6 more. I was at one where he made the cut. He dropped from the cut for the #5 person and gave all of his OP prize support to the person just behind him (so #5, #16) so that was cool. I have heard of people winning multiple Regionals in X-Wing and not passing the prize support or bye on to anyone else. Go play, but if you bump someone out of a spot think about offering them the prize support that is just extra to you and pass if you make a cut, let someone else try to get the win.

On 5/23/2019 at 3:12 PM, Yodhrin said:

... but nine times out of ten in my experience the people throwing a massive s***fit over losing are the "normal" players

would love to see the data on this calculation


And I suspect we have different definitions of "normal" players.

Cycling back to the OP, what works in my marriage is that we each go on a few "adventures" every year (weekends away without the family doing hobby stuff, be it photography, gaming, SCA, papercraft, whatever) while the other stays home with the kids.
Similarly each get time during the week after the kids are in bed to take off or hole up in a craft room working on stuff.

8 hours ago, AllWingsStandyingBy said:

would love to see the data on this calculation


And I suspect we have different definitions of "normal" players.

This. I don’t think the issue is a lower percentage of neuro typical people in gaming, or a higher incidence of anger issues or anything medical. I think it’s just plain lower than average social skills. I include myself in that.

Yikes! This thread is kinda depressing. Here’s an alternative experience that’s more pleasant, for whatever it’s worth: I don’t play in tournaments, I don’t care who wins (no; really—I just don’t), and my wife is one of my most frequent gaming partners. I don’t think either of us would enjoy tournament play, but we love playing friendly games at home. I paint all the miniatures and build terrain, but she’s more than happy to play games. We have a lot of overlap in literary and other interests, so it’s not too surprising.

As another poster commented, every marriage is different, and I can’t speak to what works for other people, but I will say that for my own sake, I could never have been happy married to the sort of woman some of my friends ended up marrying—the sort who turn up their noses in sneering, uncomprehending disgust at ‘nerd stuff’ but grudgingly tolerate it in their husbands like some kind of sadly uncontrollable addiction. Younger fellow nerds: take this into account when seeking a spouse. 😉

1 hour ago, TheGreenKnight said:

As another poster commented, every marriage is different, and I can’t speak to what works for other people, but I will say that for my own sake, I could never have been happy married to the sort of woman some of my friends ended up marrying—the sort who turn up their noses in sneering, uncomprehending disgust at ‘nerd stuff’ but grudgingly tolerate it in their husbands like some kind of sadly uncontrollable addiction. Younger fellow nerds: take this into account when seeking a spouse. 😉

Hey look, contempt for each other's hobbies is not a healthy thing in any kind of relationship.

My partner and I have plenty in common to find in common with each other - but wargaming is not one of those. She likes the painting and artistry, but she's lukewarm about the gaming. And that's fine. Coupledom doesn't mean sharing anything and everything.

But a relationship where you have to settle doesn't sound great at all.

1 hour ago, TheGreenKnight said:

As another poster commented, every marriage is different, and I can’t speak to what works for other people,

I very rarely take my wife to any of this stuff but we also have a rule. If I can take a kid with me (to whatever), it doesn't count as burning any of my chips.

1 hour ago, TheGreenKnight said:

but I will say that for my own sake, I could never have been happy married to the sort of woman some of my friends ended up marrying—the sort who turn up their noses in sneering, uncomprehending disgust at ‘nerd stuff’ but grudgingly tolerate it in their husbands

I married a mundane. Best decision of my life. If my wife showed any more interest in this stuff, I'd be like a gambling or drug addict, only, for nerd gaming stuff. I would over-indulge to the point of self-ruin. I am not exaggerating. She always liked traditional games so she'll play things like D20 minis and Heroscape. She likes to sew and to camp so she'll make herself an outfit and hang out at the occasional reenactment event. But she reserves slight and vague judgement for all this "nerd stuff" as you put it. Thank the geez. Or my life would be pathetic. She doesn't judge it any more harshly than a lot of women do their husbands golf clubs or fishing gear, but, it's enough to introduce a control element into the system.

1 hour ago, TheGreenKnight said:

like some kind of sadly uncontrollable addiction.

Yep. That's totally what it is in my case. I was thwarted in my interest in this stuff as a kid (cause my parents thought DnD would get us into death cults or something) and now it's forever lodged in the pleasure center of my brain. In the way that only thwarted youthful ambitions can be.

1 hour ago, TauntaunScout said:

I married a mundane. Best decision of my life. If my wife showed any more interest in this stuff, I'd be like a gambling or drug addict, only, for nerd gaming stuff. I would over-indulge to the point of self-ruin. I am not exaggerating. ... Or my life would be pathetic. She doesn't judge it any more harshly than a lot of women do their husbands golf clubs or fishing gear, but, it's enough to introduce a control element into the system.

I was just about to reply with the same thing, so I'm glad to see it's reflected elsewhere. The best-lived life is, I think, one of balance and variety and moderation. Life is short and free time is precious, and the last thing you want to do is squander almost all of it away on the same one narrow thing.

Hobbiest/Interests generally, and geek-obsession gaming in particular, can really threaten to over-consume one's attention and energy. I, too, have that tendency where I feel like if I wasn't careful I might blink and realize I've spent the majority of day indulging in the same hobby, to the detriment of other important aspects of my life. Having a spouse who does not share the gaming hobby (but who also doesn't disrespect it) is insanely valuable, because it's like an external check-and-balance that keeps me from getting tunnel vision and wasting too much time and energy and what's ultimately a pleasant (but utterly meaningless and zero-investment no-equity) escapism time-burner. And having a spouse into other things radically expands your own social sphere and friends circles, and can also broaden your perspectives and opportunities.

I know some friend-couples who are both into the same geeky hobby (e.g. D&D), and they spend soooo much of their time talking about the same thing and doing the same thing (e.g. they'll sit around and paint minis or RP little mini-sessions together every. single. night). That might work for some people, but I think it's narrowing one's life experiences, putting diminishing returns upon time and energy invested into the hobby, and will likely stale at some point and they'll have to address the fact that they've built an entire relationship upon doing one thing together--if one of them burns out or gets sick of... will the relationship be unphased? If they have children, will they be able to adapt to having to balance so many more responsibilites and huge restrictions on free time and funds with that obsession? It's a lot harder to readjust and adapt to one's new priorities if you've only had one priority for years.

I know many people in the competitive X-Wing community who I would say are unhealthily obsessed. They practice almost every night on Vassal. They make (or listen) to X-Wing focused podcasts. They spend all day on the forums and FB groups (some people have 10,000 even 20,000 posts on these boards alone). They are unable to talk about anything else when you see them at events. They travel to 2-3 tournaments a month (sometimes 6 hours) and basically give up entire weekends and pay a ton on travel/housing. I mean, autonomous consenting adults can do whatever they want as long as it doesn't hurt others, but I have to think that the last thing these people need are a spouse or significant other who is also into the hobby and further validates, encourages, condones, or normalizes the obsession.

7 hours ago, AllWingsStandyingBy said:

Hobbies/Interests generally, and geek-obsession gaming in particular, can really threaten to over-consume one's attention and energy. I, too, have that tendency where I feel like if I wasn't careful I might blink and realize I've spent the majority of day indulging in the same hobby, to the detriment of other important aspects of my life.

I don’t necessarily think it’s the gaming itself, so much as it is the personality type of the person. It just happens that people with that sort of “super focus” to the point of near (or actual) obsession are often the same sorts of people who would indulge in “geek gaming”.

I am absolutely guilty of this. Even before I knew about xwing (and well before Legion was a thing), I had that same sort of narrow focus in that I usually only manage one, maybe two hobbies or activities beyond the essentials (work, sleep, “keep the lights on” chore work etc). At one point when I was younger, all free time went into paintball or getting ready for paintball. More recently been other things of course, with the latest being the nerd/geek gaming and hobbying terrain etc.

However, having a wife who does not share any interest in it keeps it from taking over. Now, I do think we need to find some things to do in common... but that’s a whole other story and not tied to the gaming hobby.