And last but not least...I personally don't appreciate roleplaying groups where players kill each others' characters over relatively small slights. I believe in some leeway towards each other, especially since most of us put a lot of effort into our characters and prefer them to actually live through an entire campaign. In addition, player killing almost irrevocably leads to resentment.

In general, I agree with this. However, I feel there's a certain exception: Psykers are without question among the strongest characters in the setting, becoming ever stronger with every new sourcebook and every new power published (one game session, we went through an underground complex with massive amounts of traps. That was after the Radical's Handbook and its awesome Sense Mechanism power was published. Guess how many wounds we took after my diviner got fed up with the booby traps and decided that he'd use powers). There are two balances to this power: The fact that at any moment, things can Go Horribly Wrong and that most people assume that things you do will Go Horribly Wrong.

Like others have said though, it could be a good idea to clear this with the other players in a group before making a psyker. If they're hell-bent on killing off any psyker that displays perils, well, there's a pretty huge risk in playing one since there's a decent chance it will happen sooner or later. I like playing doomed characters, but not ones that are doomed at the chance of a dice roll.

IMO, psykers aren't doomed at the chance of a dice roll, but doomed from the point they choose the psyker career and choose to manifest powers when they don't have Fate Points left to reroll nines.

@Illithidelderbrain

Also, for every 10 Corruption points your rare little snowflake inflicts on the party members, they have a chance to get themselves a nice little mutation, and once you get one, getting more becomes even easier.

Forget Corrupting the cell, think of the bystanders - the Corruption rules explicitly state that PCs and other significant characters are the only ones that get the benefit of the 100 point Corruption scale. Everyone else exposed to any amount of Corruption may at the drop of a hat mutate or become insane outright.

Good point, re: having fate points left. To be honest I do think the chances of having a very bad perils is rather low, assuming

a) the player always reserves at least one fate point for such an event (hard to do sometimes but...)

b) doesn't roll an unnecessary amount of dice (like a fellow player who always rolled 4 dice for sense presence 'to get a wider radius')

c) uses his powers pretty sparingly

d) takes the favored by the warp talent as soon as possible (should be a no-brainer)

Casters in all games always get more powerful with every source book printed...I'm sort of glad our GM restricts the stuff in RH pretty severely.

I still think they should have had levels for the phenomena like in WHRPG with the magic perils(or whatever they were). The more power dice the greater the chance something terrible will happen and less terrible things the less dice.

Unusualsuspect said:

Regarding Dark Summoning. So far we've been discussing this from the point of view of a few guys who know all the rules and possibilities. And from that point of view, I specifically *didn't* include Dark Summoning because you and I both know that it only pulls one daemon (minor) who throws a tantrum and attacks the summoner. Not too hard to put away. The other possibilities I did include are the ones where Large Groups of people (Acolytes, general population etc) are unfortunate enough to be included in the psyker's mental melt-down.

Also, in game, a character has no idea what the possibilities are when a perils test comes up. Most would say "Better safe than sorry" and report the unbiased truth that the psyker lost control of his abilities and they (the rest of the Acolytes) prevented a possible Warp intrusion.

To your second point, I tried to find some nice way of putting it, but the fact is, I'm unconcerned with your "disappointment". In the grand scheme of things whether you're disappointed makes no difference to me. Tens of thousands are sacrificed on a daily basis to fuel the needs of the Throne. The point still stands. In DH, life is cheap, and there is always someone else there that can replace your character. Now if you look at my earlier posts, you'll see I:

1) Gave advice on how to wheedle your way out of an unfortunate roll (Raise those Deceive and Blather skills!)

2) Made mention of the fact that using powers superfluously will lead to early perils tests (Think like a jedi and use your powers sparingly)

3) Provided some in-game perspective on psykers, including a quote (word-for-word) from an "in-game" publication reasoning why psykers should be watched for any signs of trouble. (I followed that up with the mention that the in-game Inquisitor took a dim view of "scared trigger-happy Acolytes)

And it wasn't until that other poster (who finally had to resort to ad-hominem personal attacks) tried to play rules lawyer and cite three of the least "perilous" perils as justification for his points. I cited 6 that would most assuredly warrant extermination as refutation.

The Thought(s) of the Day furthermore cemented with in-game reference the points I've made thus far. And the only one that could possibly be "twisted" would be "The ends justify the means". Funny that they need to be "twisted" to support the arguments you've provided.

The point you made on thousands being sacrificed was useless in that surviving sanctioning psykers ARE diamonds in comparison to the coal of the dregs being sacrificed, who themselves are so damnably rare that they have to be shipped to Terra from all over the billions of planets of the imperium. Your point that any and everyone's character isn't special and can, if necessary, be sacrificed... that actually has some merit. However, we're not talking about the "person" at all - we're talking about an expensive and difficult-to-acquire tool.

In game, one wouldn't know the mechanics behind a great deal of the Perils results... but the Inquisition can know, based on lore and thousands of years of experience, what the signs would be for a psyker who has lost a little control (which can be regained) or gone apeshit crazy (which would warrant a bullet in the brain). A small explosion knocking a psyker unconscious? Probably not an issue unless a gate to the warp opens up then and there. An burst of warp bolts or an explosion of warp energy that ends almost immediately? Again, probably not an issue.

But daemons flooding the nearby area and trying to possess everyone that doesn't stop for a while? Yeah, that's the sort of troubling sign that could warrant a shot to the face.

Simply including others in the area of effect of the backlash isn't reason enough to shoot the psyker. Mass corruption, perhaps - that **** spreads. A fellow acolyte getting a nasty burn across the chest does not indicate a psyker has lost so much control they need to be put down.

As for the thoughts of the day... I don't have time to get into. Suffice to say that twisting meanings was a phrase I used to imply a different viewpoint, which given the Inquisition's stance, isn't just possible, but likely.

I'd like to see these ad hominem attacks you mention. It's particularly funny you trying to use that angle given your general acidic and sarcastic tone, which I see you've chosen to continue to use towards Unusualsuspect as well.

Nihilius said:

Agreed. It depends on your roleplay group, but generally that's not going to be much fun for anyone. That said, it doesn't hurt to have some tension in the group (e.g. a zealous Cleric and a Psyker) providing everyone is sensible about it.

Regarding the use of Fate Points, I don't follow your logic. You can't use them to reroll a 9 when manifesting psychic powers, nor can you use them to change your roll on the Perils table, so how would they help?

Agénor: As far as kitting out a Psyker goes, I agree Sound Constitution is nice, though it is pretty expensive (unless you go the Templar Calix or Militant route). Saving early on to buy up your Willpower before getting more Psy Levels is good because the number of powers you get is based on your WP bonus, so I recommend getting it as high as possible. Other than that, the Psyker paths are very flexible, and offer you a lot of varied roleplay opportunities. It would be best to decide what sort of character you want to play first, and then fit your purchases around that.

Regarding the use of Fate Points, I don't follow your logic. You can't use them to reroll a 9 when manifesting psychic powers, nor can you use them to change your roll on the Perils table, so how would they help?

I and many other groups consider Focus Power sufficiently test-like enough to allow for Fate Point use.

Well yeah, it's more a point of some people being immature "roleslayers" who attempt to murder other PC's over such a minor, imagined slight, just like it's "roleslaying" to use unfettered powers to solve every problem, no matter how simple, and rolling more power dice than you need, that's just inviting disaster.

Still, it's atrociously bad form, both in and out of character, for a party member to attempt to kill a Psyker PC, especially a careful one, for an unlucky roll on a chart, out of character that's just disruptive BS, in character you're attempting to kill an Inquisitorial asset, one that is extremely rare, difficult and time consuming to train and utterly vital to the survival of the Imperium.

Fortunately my groups are more mature than that, but still, it's a pet hate.

Unusualsuspect said:

From a forum perspective, sure, I'll give you that useful psykers are rare, and can have value. But from an in-game perspective, getting blasted by the guy standing next to you and being corrupted (out of game it's handled in the abstract by the GM saying: take two (or however many) Corruption Points.) would tend to make Acolytes rather angry. Angry enough to kill the offender. And I wouldn't hold it against them one bit. Bear in mind too, this typically occurs in the middle of a fire fight of some sort. Snap decisions, whether poor or on target are made. Will the Inquisitor throw the baby out with the bath water simply because one of his tools was destroyed? Or will he question whether the judgment to put down said psyker was done out of spite? You can argue this day and night with me but what you should understand is that both of our arguments are equally valid and equally correct, such that not all perils of the warp occurences warrant execution, but if an execution does occur, the Inquisitor shouldn't hold it against the Acolytes. Playing a psyker is fraught with danger. To their enemies. To their teammates. And to themselves. You'll note, in my bullet points I listed the foulest of the foul events that could affect not only the psyker but Everyone around them. That most definitely warrants summary execution. Especially if the GM handles distribution of Corruption Points not only in the abstract but with an in game effect (as my GM does)

EDIT: As Cifer mentioned in his post (#25) civilians do not have the benefit of the 100 point corruption scale. One mishap could lead to a dozen or more mutants popped up unbidden. I know life is cheap in the game, but does that mean the psyker doesn't have to answer for the calamity he causes?

Regarding thoughts of the day response: Why didn't you just say what you meant instead of allowing the door to be opened for misinterpretation? (Rhetorical question)

NOTE: Part of the problem we have as forum posters is that we have at least one degree of separation from events that occur in game and how we approach those events as discussed on forums. We've had time to review (in our mind) the events that happen in game and then think about alternatives to actions taken in game.

@Nihil,

I wont be getting into the flame war you so desperately crave, so calling me out as a person will get you nowhere fast. Clearly you've taken one post directed at your argument and blown it into this outlandish "Illithid is out to get me" craze. Stick to the points given in the post and try not to attack another poster's character. I'll leave it to you to re-read your posts to find the ad hominem personal attack.

Cifer said:

Yeah, the same for our group. I assume you know about the errata on Fate Points Niqvah? Re-roll any failed Test ---> Re-roll any one Test, and our group has ruled the same as cipher's.

Azraiel: I could understand offing a psyker character on the very worst perils rolls (like daemonhost), otherwise I very much agree.

Edit: Ilithid, I have no idea why you have this hostile and sarcastic tone, it's very unbecoming. I assume you mean "you should probably look into a more mature tone when arguing", which I certainly think was warranted and not at all a personal attack. Whatever though, I'm not interested in an e-fight with you.

Edit2: it would probably have behooved me further to rise above your tone, but I don't mind calling anyone out on bad behavior.

First and foremost, having considered the manner away from a keyboard and internet access, I do want to express my apologies for my somewhat acidic tone in previous posts - its hard to remember that, despite being anonymous on the internet, one's standards of propriety aught to be maintained.

I think, in reality, most of us are actually not THAT far apart concerning our views on when a mercy kill is justified. I'm playing a psyker myself, though I am truly trying to keep my bias out of this; admitting that there are times such actions are reasonable and justified is a painful thing for me, considering I have a party member who will, without hesitation (and perhaps just a bit of maliciousness, as is his style), enact "shot to the head" if I Peril spectacularly, having explicitly mentioned Chronological Incontinence (and yes, that is truly an awesome title).

To your points...

I think you're right about hindsight being 20-20. It is easy in the heat of the moment to do things one might regret, and to some extent one might even commend a player for pursuing that in character, despite what will most likely cause quite a bit of between-player friction - let's be frank, even experienced gamers (especially experienced gamers!) tend to develop a bond with their character, and having their character's head exploded by a combination of something they have little control over and nothing less than another player's personal actions can lead to belief in malicious intent from that other player, regardless of its reality.

I simply have to disagree that an Inquisitor should be expected to dismiss rash and impossible-to-correct decisions that lead to such a costly loss as if they never happened. Keep in mind that acolytes are not merely playthings of the Inquisitors they serve under, but also Inquisitors in training whose actions and decisions are constantly being judged to determine fitness for being Inquisitors themselves(though they are, have no doubt, ALSO playthings of the Inquisitors they serve under).

It may not be the Inquisitor-in-training, i.e. the acolyte cell's leader, that makes that decision - perhaps the Primer-indoctrinated Guardsman saw a Commissar do it once and thought it would look heroic, or the feral-world assassin lost what little cool she had and gutted the psyker in a rage, or the Adept had his favorite auto-scribe's ink ruined when it turned to ice and stabbed it through the psyker's eye. Regardless, someone in that cell was "in charge", and someone was responsible for controlling his cell. If a psyker is 'put down' during the course of the mission, you better believe that an Inquisitor will not only examine the situation closely due to the cost and rarity issues involved with replacing the psyker, but will do so as nothing less than a perfect test of the leadership and decision-making qualities of the acolyte in charge, searching for any and all flaws that decision might have shown.

I agree that an Inquisitor is not likely, as you put it, to throw the baby out with the bathwater... but don't expect a poor decision to reflect well on your acolyte cell, especially when it comes to trusting that the cell will act correctly when the reality-manipulation **** hits the fan, nor with other expensive and rare tools that require more subtlety than quotes from a Guardsman's Uplifting Primer to employ correctly.

Also, I have no issue with a psyker answering for what Calamity his failure to control his warp-manipulations entail. Justice, I believe, is what you're referring to... and something that someone experienced with the Inquisition should provide, someone like an Inquisitor. A bullet to the head isn't necessary when a tranq dart can do the same job, and both in-game and out-of-game, that psyker is going to be far happier being given a chance to explain himself before having a bullet lodged into his frontal cortex.

Concerning the Thoughts - Rhetorical Questions roughly phrased as "why did you do such a dumb thing?" are perhaps not the best thing to use in polite conversation. I should have phrased it differently, but metaphorically rubbing my face in it is a bit rude given I acknowledged the issue.

Unusual,

I have but one condtion for your apology, and that is for you to extend to me the same courtesy. My normal wry wit is readily understood by my friends, yet easily misconstrued as acerbic harshness online. Mea Culpa.

"The Sun was shining anew on Smurf Village...."

I've just spent two days of back and forth E-mails to my G.M. to discuss the background story of my character and half a day to modify the provided packages into something suiting the aforementionned background, I certainly wouldn't enjoy him being killed because another player feared for his own character. Shall I drive my stylus between the fourth and fifth rib of someone using a grenage launcher at the first sign of jamming, turn-off the techpriest for good if we get spotted because all this metal clinking isn't exactly silent? As well, I can't see what Peril would end prematurly if the psyker is slain. Daemonhost? Maybe but that's the only one. What if at some point, another of the group is heavily wounded somewhere with no near help available, shall I let him die because it's too much a risk to call on to the warp, he is but an expendable tool, when the threshold is easily overcome, rolling a 9 or not, and the wounded character is back on his feet by just snapping my fingers?

I understand that someone might get angry at the psyker having just unleashed a nasty Peril, that's where maturity comes into play. The Dwarf doesn't ax down the Elf sorcerer if the Dwarf's beard gets burned a little by a fireball. Furthermore, assuming the peril was one of with an area of effect, if someone shoots at the psyker and misses, can the psyker bio-lightning fry him back because "he got corrupted and started using his weapon against his teammates, an obvious sign that he had lost his sanity"?

That being said, I would like advice on how to spend the xp I'll get if I survive as well as the initial 100 xp - 300 of the initial 400 being spent on Living Nightmare. Everybody mentions Favoured by the Warp as a talent to get. Is there another way to have it other than rank 6 scholar or rank 8 savant? Besides this, what would be a viable psyker build with 1000, 2000 xp?

Agénor said:

Do you know yet which path you will be taking (Militant or Scholar)? Or something else entirely? Are you shooting for one of the Alternate Ranks, or Elite Advance Packages? A lot will be determined by how you answer these questions. Please forgive if I missed it in an earlier post.

For example, as others have mentioned, if you want to be a hand-to-hand god, the Templar Calix is essential. In my last group, the only character who could stand toe-to-toe with my Sororitas in melee combat was the Templar ... not even the Moritat Assassin with his twin Lathe Blades could hang with us.

But if you're of a less militant bent, then you'll need to spend your XP very differently.

In either case, the talents and advances that many other posters have mentioned are indeed good calls, just as soon as you are allowed to take them.

As the background writing reaches its final phases, the character is as such:

A mix between Noble(Battlefleet Calixis) and Void Born(Darkholder) origins as well as having the Living Nightmare package. I know of the normal limitations of packages but as I wrote the background before getting into packages, the G.M. and I worked and tinkered a bit. Basically, son of admiral, always on ship as child, one day, Tyrant Star pops next to ship, bloodbath on deck. Character makes his way to escape pod, Bountiful Beast picks him up, lives there for years. Then, as he conducts a meat delivery, Inquisition drops by, apparently it wasn't only meat, Inquisitor notices him. They reach a deal, character gets field-sanctionned, avoiding the black ships, works for the Inquisitor and will be given the opportunity to get his noble position back.

That was for the background part.

For the mechanical part, I am aiming, if I reach there alive and not mad/tainted, to make him a templar. That's 1900 xp to go, the first 100 I have spent on an Int increase, the G.M. allows point-buy initial characteristics which had me started with an Int of 25, not acceptable so there. Besides the obvious WP and Psy Rating, I am not sure of what to take. Many things seem interesting but I'd like, if you please of course, insight from people having tried these things. 1900 xp, what build would you have, aiming at templar?

Edit: Minor Psychic Powers are Resist Possession, Lucky - both dictated by background - and Healer.

I've just spent two days of back and forth E-mails to my G.M. to discuss the background story of my character and half a day to modify the provided packages into something suiting the aforementionned background, I certainly wouldn't enjoy him being killed because another player feared for his own character. Shall I drive my stylus between the fourth and fifth rib of someone using a grenage launcher at the first sign of jamming, turn-off the techpriest for good if we get spotted because all this metal clinking isn't exactly silent? As well, I can't see what Peril would end prematurly if the psyker is slain. Daemonhost? Maybe but that's the only one. What if at some point, another of the group is heavily wounded somewhere with no near help available, shall I let him die because it's too much a risk to call on to the warp, he is but an expendable tool, when the threshold is easily overcome, rolling a 9 or not, and the wounded character is back on his feet by just snapping my fingers?

You're being too rational here. In 40k, psykers aren't trusted. The exact mechanics of each peril aren't known. And there's always the chance, at each peril, that it doesn't just stay a single peril, but that the psyker essentially lost it and will continue to manifest them, possibly due to being possessed. In fact, Psykers that don't withhold Fate Points for rerolling 9s are IMO already on the edge of what's considered imperially acceptable.

As for the expendability question: It really depends. For example, I am of the opinion that noone below officer rank (excepting specialists) would be healed by a psyker in the IG except in very unusual circumstances - you can always bring in more men, but you can't easily repair the damage resulting from a psyker-gone-daemonhost.
In an acolyte cell, things get a little looser - you don't have the ressources available to replace every acolyte right there and then and many times, your adversaries' plan succeeding would have results more terrible than a single Peril. Nevertheless, the standard psyker IMO considers his craft always a last resort. Don't heal unless the Medicae has failed. Don't firebolt unless the enemy would inflict serious damage if not put down immediately.

I understand that someone might get angry at the psyker having just unleashed a nasty Peril, that's where maturity comes into play. The Dwarf doesn't ax down the Elf sorcerer if the Dwarf's beard gets burned a little by a fireball. Furthermore, assuming the peril was one of with an area of effect, if someone shoots at the psyker and misses, can the psyker bio-lightning fry him back because "he got corrupted and started using his weapon against his teammates, an obvious sign that he had lost his sanity"?

The Elf sorcerer isn't in the habit of having his head eaten by daemons (which will continue munching the party for dessert) if he does something wrong, is he?
Psykers aren't your standard sorcerers with a little backlash added. Psykers are gateways to the dimension of daemons and other icky stuff and the only thing holding that gateway mostly closed is their willpower and skill. And people know that.

In fact, I've recently started playing a psyker of my own in a more high-level game. When I created him (a mind-wiped Templar), I didn't have that much of a concept and mainly remembered the things I just said - manifest as a last resort, always hold back Fate Points, etc. Then I started playing and suddenly noticed how useful and tempting many of his powers were... you don't need to stumble into every trap, just activate Sense Mechanism and Sense Presence. Weapon Jinx disables enemies. Divination makes a lot of things easier. Then I looked onto his Shards of Memories, which just happened to be Throne of Blood and the character just came together: a former cult leader/sorceror, now mind-wiped to serve the inquisition, with a few habits setting him apart from normal psykers that just didn't like to stay down. And I somewhat hope the other players notice sooner or later he doesn't quite conform to what I always said about psykers and their powers...

Agénor said:

Agénor said:

Ah, nice. Interesting and unique background.

So, as for your progression, you will want to listen to the other posters. And ... Sound Constitution, Unshakable Faith, Armor of Contempt, Jaded, and anything else that either reduces your chances of gaining Insanity or Corruption, or reduces the amount of Insanity or Corruption you gain. Also, all of the melee weapon talents (and Skills), including, but not limited to ... the highest Dodge you can get, the highest WS you can get, the highest WP you can get, the highest Toughness you can get, etc., etc.

I know that seem vague and such. But I hope it helps anyway.

Cifer said:

So, if Focus Power is treated like a skill or characteristic test for the purpose of allowing Fate Point use; i.e. rerolling, does your group agree then that you can spend a Fate Point for the "extra degree of success" use to get more overbleed on a power? Also, if you're spending Fate to reroll a 9 on a Focus Power roll, do you only reroll the 9, or the whole shabang?

My own ruling has been no on the use of Fate to reroll a power attempt; but that they can be used to reroll results on the Phenomena and Perils tables. Of course, I also require the Psyker's player to declare everything they're putting into the power prior to attempting the Focus Power roll; Invocation attempt, number of dice from Psy rating. This helps to prevent the tendency I've read on the forums in the past for Psyker's to roll until successful or out of dice.

But that's just my take on things, and they work well enough for my people.

-=Brother Praetus=-

@Praetus

So, if Focus Power is treated like a skill or characteristic test for the purpose of allowing Fate Point use; i.e. rerolling, does your group agree then that you can spend a Fate Point for the "extra degree of success" use to get more overbleed on a power? Also, if you're spending Fate to reroll a 9 on a Focus Power roll, do you only reroll the 9, or the whole shabang?

Nope. While allowing FP-use for more overbleed would be an interesting idea, so far we've only gone for allowing rerolls of the entire power.

My own ruling has been no on the use of Fate to reroll a power attempt; but that they can be used to reroll results on the Phenomena and Perils tables. Of course, I also require the Psyker's player to declare everything they're putting into the power prior to attempting the Focus Power roll; Invocation attempt, number of dice from Psy rating. This helps to prevent the tendency I've read on the forums in the past for Psyker's to roll until successful or out of dice.

Considering I generally don't let the guardsman say "Hey, I've rolled an 04, so I think I'm using autofire for six hits instead of single shot", I didn't think allowing the psyker to do his power bit-by-bit was even an option - although he can try to Invocate as long as he wants before deciding on any power specifics since that's a different action.

Cifer said:

That was always my general take as well, however, I've seen and heard of people doing just that sort of thing... So, to prevent even a glimmer of having to argue it, I simply came out and expressed my interpretation as a house rule and clarification. Kind of moot with most the people I play with.

-=Brother Praetus=-