I dunno which sport has Center as a position, but the Vultures seem to got this covered.

I want to talk about the number 2 and 3. Great numbers. The best. Take it from me.

Been thinking that in a swarm 4 or 5 vultures, its really nice to have two with Grappling + ESC. You take one of your biggest rocks, and plop it dead center in the map. Then yolo straight onto it, hopefully covering yourself. And you can just stay on that rock and deny a huge amount of area. Generally, your opponent will have the initiative, and put the other two rocks all the way in their corners. Woe is them if they don't and or if they don't take gas clouds.

One may consider a 3rd grappler. As I think the combination of 2 center 1 on the side makes for exceptional area denial. HOWEVER, I find that only 2 ever really stay on rocks.

Grappling is economically sound, giving a 3rd agility, but the ability to stay put and rotate is SO valuable. Staying on a rock too provides great cover and is hard to fight. On a big rock too, you can sometimes rotate and BR link Calc.

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Vultures seriously fall off though if you don't have enough, either for passing calculates (like DFS or Kraken) or just lacking Calc share.

A good test is to find out if 2 Grappling Vultures (maybe + 1 nonGrappler) in any list are good fillers.

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This is also a general PSA that unless your opponent does stupid things, you probably only need 2 grapple upgrades, maybe 3. Don't bother giving all 5 vultures grapple.

Are they really that big a deal that people are taking them on every drone? I've only come up against them twice, and both times I dealt with the turreting strat really easily. I remained unimpressed enough that I haven't even taken a single grapple grapple droid in a list yet.

DFS-311 with Grappling Struts is quite a support machine.

I have experimented a decent amount with Grapplers. I started giving them to all my ships, but that is not worth it. I've played for 7 years and it's just too ingrained to avoid asteroids to really use it well on all of them. It's not worth the points. Also, if you have a fee in formation with those that don't, they get targeted first due to being worth more points.

I have used 1-2 with Grapplers to really good effect. I found I take the biggest asteroid and put it on my side of the middle so that you can get to it on the 2nd turn. Try to get enough asteroid in front and to the sides of you.

4 hours ago, Vector Strike said:

DFS-311 with Grappling Struts is quite a support machine.

DFS-311, aka "Butterbot" is one of the best guys to use this way. You don't give him ESC as he always passes his Calc, but he is out of the way to get shot at. It's a perfect way to use Butterbot.

Having ar least one guy on the rock with ESC is really useful, too. I play against a lot of aces and the Jedi are always trying to dodge arcs. These guys are like Missile Turrets to always get a shot. They are pretty good. I had one game that was 2 wounded Vultures on an asteroid with 1 Jedi that was trying to circle in for a shot in the flanks. He couldn't do it and rushed in for a R3 attempt to blow one up. I got him first with Init 3 firing first.

I find you really need to plan your rock placement ahead of time, but it's do-able. I think you could even place another rock on their side, near the middle, and if you live through the first pass you can setup shop on their side.

12 hours ago, NakedDex said:

Are they really that big a deal that people are taking them on every drone? I've only come up against them twice, and both times I dealt with the turreting strat really easily. I remained unimpressed enough that I haven't even taken a single grapple grapple droid in a list yet.

It's not game breaking or crazy OP, but you can stick some guys on a rock with a good field of fire every round. If placed right, they get the bonus defense die and you don't when they shoot you. So, it's slightly good dice wise. I think the real bonus is placement and not moving. It works well if you have a swarm to occupy their ships so they can't focus on your Grapplers. I like 8 Vultures with 1 or 2 on rocks. The fewer ships you have, the less effective the strategy is. Fewer ships just means they come up and blast your Grappler guys. More ships means they are dealing with your horde or formation while the Grapplers fire Missiles at you....every other round (or just main guns).

I think Hyenas with Landing Struts will be pretty good for the same reason. Sit on the rock and fire Proton Torpedoes at the enemy while they joust your formation.

17 hours ago, Blail Blerg said:

I dunno which sport has Center as a position,

The most popular ones in North America all have it.

Football: Center snaps the ball

Basketball: Center swats and rebounds the ball

Soccer/Futbol: Center(Back) stops the ball

Baseball: Center(fielder) catches and throws the ball

Hockey: Center passes the ball puck

19 minutes ago, Skitch_ said:

The most popular ones in North America all have it.

Football: Center snaps the ball and anchors the offensive line

Basketball: Center swats and rebounds the ball

Soccer/Futbol: Center(Back) stops the ball

Baseball: Center(fielder) catches and throws the ball

Hockey: Center passes the ball puck

Slight fix.

I still find these guys, 2 grapplers, 3rd usually DFS to be highly effective. Yep, you rush the big rock in the middle on the 2nd turn. If he tries to alpha them off or race you to the rocks, you take the whole rest of your list and do a joust with him for the center. (Guess what, you're a great jousting list). If not, you take center for free.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but doesn't an ion force a drone off a rock? It forces a 2 forward move which is the one thing struts mentions as how you leave a rock.

Also, seismic is currently a cheap, easy choice for a lot of lists, and plays merry **** with drones to begin with, nevermind if they're attempting to turret up.

Maybe I need to just try it myself. I haven't been impressed with it against me so far in any number, but maybe those were just bad games for it.

42 minutes ago, NakedDex said:

It forces a 2 forward move

Not feeling like fact-checking the rest of your comment at the moment, but ion is a 1-straight maneuver. Regardless, since you don't assign a dial, I think it overrules the struts.

You are correct in that there are some hard counters to grappling struts. But currently none of them are very meta, and neither are struts. If Struts see an uptick, then maybe we'll see more lists bring seismic, but I don't think it's too much of a problem at the moment.

4 hours ago, Blail Blerg said:

If not, you take center for free.

Against a Vulture swarm, isn't that already pretty much the default situation? Aces didn't come here to joust you through the rocks...

27 minutes ago, SpiderMana said:

Not feeling like fact-checking the rest of your comment at the moment, but ion is a 1-straight maneuver. Regardless, since you don't assign a dial, I think it overrules the struts.

You are correct in that there are some hard counters to grappling struts. But currently none of them are very meta, and neither are struts. If Struts see an uptick, then maybe we'll see more lists bring seismic, but I don't think it's too much of a problem at the moment.

Sorry, you're right. I'm half asleep. What I meant to say was that it forces a 1 forward but then I was misremembering the strut card as being 1 forward, not its actual 2. I presume it would still work though, given ion movement can't be overridden by anything that doesn't specifically mention ion effects.

16 hours ago, SpiderMana said:

Not feeling like fact-checking the rest of your comment at the moment, but ion is a 1-straight maneuver. Regardless, since you don't assign a dial, I think it overrules the struts.

What if it doesn't force you off? What if you can only leave if you do a 2 Straight and the Ion would dial in a 1 for you, which means you don't move? That would be pretty cool.

1 hour ago, heychadwick said:

What if it doesn't force you off? What if you can only leave if you do a 2 Straight and the Ion would dial in a 1 for you, which means you don't move? That would be pretty cool.

Again, I’m fairly certain the struts card only keeps you from leaving when you reveal a dial, which Ion does not. If you’re still at r0 of the obstacle after an ion maneuver I guess your struts stay open? Maybe? I’d have to look up the cards which isn’t very doable at the moment, sorry.

1 hour ago, heychadwick said:

What if it doesn't force you off? What if you can only leave if you do a 2 Straight and the Ion would dial in a 1 for you, which means you don't move? That would be pretty cool.

Grappling Struts (Open)'s reveal dial trigger condition doesn't happen with Ion Maneuvers.

The last bullet point of the Ion section of the Rules Reference (page 12) : Since an ionized ship does not have a dial assigned to it and does not reveal its dial, it cannot resolve any effects that trigger after it reveals its dial.

Url to the unofficial online resource (thanks @J1mBob ) : http://infinitearenas.com/xw2rules/index.php?page=ion

Replacement effect - Ion maneuver is a must-do, and since the strut movement triggers on a dial reveal, and a dial reveal never happens, the ionized Vulture drifts off the rock since no maneuver was dialed in.

1 hour ago, feltipern1 said:

Replacement effect - Ion maneuver is a must-do, and since the strut movement triggers on a dial reveal, and a dial reveal never happens, the ionized Vulture drifts off the rock since no maneuver was dialed in.

*zaaaaap! *bzzzt *WHEEEEE. *barrel rolls, stresses out, focuses, wallops you with a ESC shell. 😃

4 minutes ago, Blail Blerg said:

*zaaaaap! *bzzzt *WHEEEEE. *barrel rolls, stresses out, focuses, wallops you with a ESC shell. 😃

🤨 Ionization doesn't permit any action but Focus and doesn't allow that action to be performed if it isn't on the ship's action bar. An Ionized droid drifts 1 straight and has no actions during its perform action step. When the Hyena is released, or via Palp/Sidious now, they can be coordinated the Roll>Calc combo though.

Just now, Hiemfire said:

🤨 Ionization doesn't permit any action but Focus and doesn't allow that action to be performed if it isn't on the ship's action bar. An Ionized droid drifts 1 straight and has no actions during its perform action step. When the Hyena is released, or via Palp/Sidious now, they can be coordinated the Roll>Calc combo though.

Wat. Source?

4 minutes ago, Blail Blerg said:

Wat. Source?

Rules Reference (page 12) :

Ion

A ship is IONIZED while it has a number of ion tokens relative to its size : at least one for a small ship, at least two for a medium ship, and at least three for a large ship. Ion tokens are red tokens .

During the Planning Phase an ionized ship is not assigned a dial.

During the Activation Phase , an ionized ship that did not have a dial assigned to it during the Planning Phase activates as follows:

1. The ship skips its Reveal Dial step.
2. During the Execute Maneuver step, the ionized ship executes the ion maneuver. The ion maneuver is a blue [1 ] maneuver . The bearing , difficulty , and speed of this maneuver cannot be changed unless an ability explicitly affects the ion maneuver.
3. During the Perform Action step, the ship can perform only the Focus action.
4. After the ship finishes this activation, it removes all of its ion tokens.

Additionally:

• Some special weapons inflict ion tokens instead of dealing damage.
• If a ship becomes ionized after the Planning Phase (and therefore has been assigned a dial) but before it has activated during the Activation Phase, it activates as normal. During the next Planning Phase, if the ship is still ionized, it is not assigned a dial and proceeds with the ion maneuver during the Activation Phase.
• Since an ionized ship does not have a dial assigned to it and does not reveal its dial, it cannot resolve any effects that trigger after it reveals its dial.

Limits what can be done, doesn't grant anything. Droids do not have the Focus action.

Whoa. Okay, didn't know the rules changed. Also, that's really hard to remember... Much prefer the older 1.0 version.

3 hours ago, Blail Blerg said:

Whoa. Okay, didn't know the rules changed. Also, that's really hard to remember... Much prefer the older 1.0 version.

Nah, its much better than 1E. It prevents the silly 1-Forward + double re-positioning that people used to do when their ships engine is supposed to be shut off and their flight path predictable.

Just remember you can only perform a Focus action during your perform action step. Its pretty simple.

21 minutes ago, kris40k said:

Nah, its much better than 1E. It prevents the silly 1-Forward + double re-positioning that people used to do when their ships engine is supposed to be shut off and their flight path predictable.

Just remember you can only perform a Focus action during your perform action step. Its pretty simple.

It’s also blue now. And only focus. Not calculate.

No it’s more difficult to remember lol

The Hyena is the superior scavenger

With landing struts too!

4 hours ago, ficklegreendice said:

The Hyena is the superior scavenger

Well, they're pretty much are one of the best scavengers 😁

Seppies are cool