we know exactly what thread this is a response to.

Listen:

Never get into the habit of pushily saying "things are fine"/toxic positivity camp. If you haven't learned what toxic positivity is, its a very good topic that has had a lot more research recently to combat the flow of poor information in the internet age. While generally, yes, the idea is correct, there are many ways that something is overcosted, too hard to use can be argued with supporting data. Its also not quite right to say, if something does one thing/role well that its fine. Do not become like the awful Armada types that argue NOTHING is ever wrong with the game and that its entirely balanced (and that 80% of all winning lists having a maximized feature is a fine thing). Not only is it detrimental to conversation its also detrimental to the game and also shows a distinct lack of understanding of either statistics, difficulty metrics or or modern game balance. (Not to mention they were wrong many times over as FFG has decided with nerfs)

--

Onto the Torrent in particular.

1. The Torrent really has some strong uses: The HP and as a blocked at I2. This is true.

2. (Niche use as Sync Console combo) again at I2.

The I2 Gold at 25 is fine.

But it doesn't negate the other failures of design/balance:

1. As a blocker, its not particularly ideal, neither fast, nor exceptionally mobile, its also a I2, not an I1. As blockers only and raw non-synergistic swarm, this is known to be good at the start of Xwing metas and then drop off sharply as combo-wings begin to form to break them. The lack of customization also makes this type of use highly susceptible to changes in meta. The Torrent also lacks the options of 1.0 FAA 5 Xwings, not a useful comparison. A little bit of Xwing history and game balance history shows this precedent.

2. Its named pilots are far overcosted. And as a Dedicated Carrier, also overcosted.

3. The abilities of its named pilots are not very synergistic nor reward using the Torrent over anything else. There isn't for instance a Sinker type effect

The Torrent will be helped considerably by the new ordnance that will be released.

Dropping the cost of the other pilots needs to happen, along with dedicated likely.

There are issues with this ship, do not say it is FINE. The I2 Gold is probably fine/great.

While we're at it Oddball's ARC ability being the same is awful garbage.

As a Torrent, its kind of amusing, if also awful. It should not have the bullseye req.

it's fine to have awful abilities, especially at higher Initiative (honestly, that should be the M.O)

just...you know...adjust points accordingly

3 minutes ago, Blail Blerg said:

we know exactly what thread this is a response to.

Listen:

Never get into the habit of pushily saying "things are fine"/toxic positivity camp. If you haven't learned what toxic positivity is, its a very good topic that has had a lot more research recently to combat the flow of poor information in the internet age. While generally, yes, the idea is correct, there are many ways that something is overcosted, too hard to use can be argued with supporting data. Its also not quite right to say, if something does one thing/role well that its fine. Do not become like the awful Armada types that argue NOTHING is ever wrong with the game and that its entirely balanced (and that 80% of all winning lists having a maximized feature is a fine thing). Not only is it detrimental to conversation its also detrimental to the game and also shows a distinct lack of understanding of either statistics, difficulty metrics or or modern game balance. (Not to mention they were wrong many times over as FFG has decided with nerfs)

--

Onto the Torrent in particular.

1. The Torrent really has some strong uses: The HP and as a blocked at I2. This is true.

2. (Niche use as Sync Console combo) again at I2.

The I2 Gold at 25 is fine.

But it doesn't negate the other failures of design/balance:

1. As a blocker, its not particularly ideal, neither fast, nor exceptionally mobile, its also a I2, not an I1. As blockers only and raw non-synergistic swarm, this is known to be good at the start of Xwing metas and then drop off sharply as combo-wings begin to form to break them. The lack of customization also makes this type of use highly susceptible to changes in meta. The Torrent also lacks the options of 1.0 FAA 5 Xwings, not a useful comparison. A little bit of Xwing history and game balance history shows this precedent.

2. Its named pilots are far overcosted. And as a Dedicated Carrier, also overcosted.

3. The abilities of its named pilots are not very synergistic nor reward using the Torrent over anything else. There isn't for instance a Sinker type effect

The Torrent will be helped considerably by the new ordnance that will be released.

Dropping the cost of the other pilots needs to happen, along with dedicated likely.

There are issues with this ship, do not say it is FINE. The I2 Gold is probably fine/great.

It’s fine, don’t worry about it.

3 minutes ago, ficklegreendice said:

it's fine to have awful abilities, especially at higher Initiative (honestly, that should be the M.O)

just...you know...adjust points accordingly

I disagree. Even at the really low cost, this shouldn't be a play-book play. VERY sparingly, fine. But let's be honest, 1.0 rexlar was a huge dud.

It also breaks immersion, why does my super skilled named pilot have such a useless ability? Useless here is a numerical value. MajorJuggler has math for the efficiency and proc rates for Rexlar.

I do note of course that weakening highest PS ships can be a good thing. But That's a huge problem I have no idea how to solve. (Making mid PS very relevant in the face of high PS being good in this game).

28 minutes ago, Blail Blerg said:

I disagree. Even at the really low cost, this shouldn't be a play-book play. VERY sparingly, fine. But let's be honest, 1.0 rexlar was a huge dud.

It also breaks immersion, why does my super skilled named pilot have such a useless ability? Useless here is a numerical value. MajorJuggler has math for the efficiency and proc rates for Rexlar.

I do note of course that weakening highest PS ships can be a good thing. But That's a huge problem I have no idea how to solve. (Making mid PS very relevant in the face of high PS being good in this game).

super skilled named pilot has such a useless ability because moving last and shooting first is HUGE 😛

18 minutes ago, Blail Blerg said:

I disagree. Even at the really low cost, this shouldn't be a play-book play. VERY sparingly, fine. But let's be honest, 1.0 rexlar was a huge dud.

It also breaks immersion, why does my super skilled named pilot have such a useless ability? Useless here is a numerical value. MajorJuggler has math for the efficiency and proc rates for Rexlar.

I do note of course that weakening highest PS ships can be a good thing. But That's a huge problem I have no idea how to solve. (Making mid PS very relevant in the face of high PS being good in this game).

Honestly i'd much prefer it if the norm was that high I pilot had worse ability. Makes it more of a meaningful choice when you have to decide between : ''Do I want the awesome Countess Ryad ability, but I have to get really good with it to make it worth it, or do I stick to the cheaper but easier and less rewarding Rexler Brath?'' High I is already a strong advantage, we don't need more Wedge in the game.

IMO some very rare ships could have both a very skilled pilot with an awesome ability, if they are priced accordingly / can't take as many upgrade / have ability that combo less with upgrades (for example if Wedge's ability only worked on primary attack ) but these should be very few are far between, as a way to showcase a really strong pilot. However FFg kinda missed the mark here in my opinion by doing certain ships with high PS and very poor ability (Kylo Ren, Rexler, Oddball, etc) but then also have some super ace that are just better than every pilot from their chassis while not costing much more (Wedge, Sontir Fel, Darth Maul, etc.)


Buuuuut all in all it all comes down to point, so there's always hope to just fix it like this. A lot of I4 / I5 pilot are already really good pick. It could also be nice to have a few more unique pilot with especially low I like Wampa or deathfire.

6 minutes ago, Blail Blerg said:

It also breaks immersion, why does my super skilled named pilot have such a useless ability?

Initiative does not equal skill. It almost does, since all the "best" pilots tend to be Init 5s and 6s, but I'm glad FFG changed the name from Pilot Skill and told us that it was deliberately to break the absolute ranking of pilots based on that number in the top corner.

Anyhow, Oddball is... odd. I think if you adjusted Oddball to be Init 3, his ability would actually be a lot better. It'd be easier to know where opponents are, then plan out a red move or action to get that Bullseye. ARC is still going to have a lot harder of a time getting it all to work than the Torrent, but even though it isn't super easy to actually pull off, the reward is solid. Getting a lock when you're going to wind up stressed isn't too bad on paper. The on-table geometry of getting the bullseye doesn't work out well, but still.

26 minutes ago, Blail Blerg said:

But it doesn't negate the other failures of design/balance:

1. As a blocker, its not particularly ideal, neither fast, nor exceptionally mobile, its also a I2, not an I1. As blockers only and raw non-synergistic swarm, this is known to be good at the start of Xwing metas and then drop off sharply as combo-wings begin to form to break them. The lack of customization also makes this type of use highly susceptible to changes in meta. The Torrent also lacks the options of 1.0 FAA 5 Xwings, not a useful comparison. A little bit of Xwing history and game balance history shows this precedent.

2. Its named pilots are far overcosted. And as a Dedicated Carrier, also overcosted.

3. The abilities of its named pilots are not very synergistic nor reward using the Torrent over anything else. There isn't for instance a Sinker type effect

Points 2 and 3 are well-taken, but I don't necessarily agree with 1. Or at least, I don't think it's right to consider #1 in isolation, since the fact of the high HP and bullet-sponge function of the Torrent are strong factors.

First, you kind of missed one of the strongest things about the arc: an amazing action bar. Focus, Lock, Evade, Roll > red Evade. That's quite good. TIEs lack the Lock and linked Evade. Z-95s lack white Rolls. Vultures have a nice action bar, but go squish.

Second, the Torrent's straight-line speed isn't too bad. 3 blue straight and 4 white are decent. It doesn't bank or turn particularly quick, but the straight moves are as good as most other swarmers.

Lastly, most factions have some sort of cheap swarmers. Torrents are in far better shape than most of those. TIEs have the Howlswarm archetype going for them, but I think Torrents are perhaps the 2nd best at their function, and probably the most interesting of the bunch. The dial adds character. Nice actions provide more potential for a high-skill player to leverage the capacity of the ship. The hit points are better than the others. Z-95s stink. TIE/fo are probably worse as swarmers. Vultures are empirically performing worse in competition, but at least they're kind of interesting.

"How (other than cheaper non-Golds) to fix the Torrent" just doesn't seem like an urgent thread to me. Comparatively speaking, the structure of the Torrent is fine. I don't think that's toxic positivity (which can be real, to be sure), but an honest comparison to other ships. Mostly those with a similar role, but a bunch of ships are in a worse spot than Torrents.

Conversely, torrents are also much easier to fix than other ships

Drop some points; done

Now we can enjoy some very situational but interesting abilities without figuratively shooting ourselves in the foot

Swoop especially is a troll's dream come true (boosting, blocking Arcs!) but his point cost is laughable

52 minutes ago, Blail Blerg said:

1. As a blocker, its not particularly ideal, neither fast, nor exceptionally mobile, its also a I2, not an I1. As blockers only and raw non-synergistic swarm, this is known to be good at the start of Xwing metas and then drop off sharply as combo-wings begin to form to break them. The lack of customization also makes this type of use highly susceptible to changes in meta. The Torrent also lacks the options of 1.0 FAA 5 Xwings, not a useful comparison. A little bit of Xwing history and game balance history shows this precedent.

2. Its named pilots are far overcosted. And as a Dedicated Carrier, also overcosted.

3. The abilities of its named pilots are not very synergistic nor reward using the Torrent over anything else. There isn't for instance a Sinker type effect

@theBitterFig answered #1 very well above, and I agree completely on #2, but I'm going to take issue with #3 here.

One, there is a Sinker-type effect. It's on Sinker. Discouraging raw spam and/or encouraging combined arms lists is not a failure. It's probably better than the alternative, as making players mix ships leads to more interesting lists. A Sinker swarm player needs to manage the different base sizes and dials, whereas a TIE swarm player can often just give everyone the same move without any real thought.

Two, there are good abilities on the V-19s; they just cost too much at the moment. Tucker is a perfect Jedi support ship, Axe would do quite well in a Sinker list, and Kickback would be an excellent missile carrier if they all weren't way too expensive. And, I suppose, if Kickback had a missile worth paying points for, but he's not the only one suffering from that problem.

Agreed with the general consensus that there is nothing wrong with the Torrent that a points change couldn't fix.

Granted, I have zero attachment to them whatsoever; all I really see from them is a filler ship. But aside from the 25 pt generic, they're insanely overpriced, to the point where one begins to wonder why. The pilot abilities aren't all that bad, they're just not worth the crazy and inexplicable tax you have to pay to get them.

Btw, slight detour onto Oddball Arc

I understand ffg gave us the adorable navigator combo, but...

New Squadron

(55) "Odd Ball" [ARC-170 Starfighter]
(5) Seasoned Navigator
Points: 60

(44) Luminara Unduli [Delta-7 Aethersprite]
(16) Delta-7B
Points: 60

...yeah, it don't quite compete does it?

*But Arcs, I feel, are in a better spot overall in terms of pilots you could comfortably take in a list

Oddball + swarm tactics

Seven squad + swarm tactics

104th

2 x torrents

----------------

I can count to 200

Gold Squad trooper is fine. I run four in a list with decent success. The upper init pilots could come down a little. That's all

13 hours ago, theBitterFig said:

These seem about right. If the Gold is correct, it's 1 point more than a TIE with the same Init (Obsidian). As such, Blue at Black TIE + 1, Tucker at Night Beast + 1, Oddball at Mauler Mithel + 1 all make sense.

That seems right to me. A Gold V-19 is definitely better than a TIE fighter, but it's not earthshakingly better without any upgrades stapled to it. It's quite a bit tougher, but detectably slower and less manoeuvrable, having only one white turn speed. A massed swarm 8 v 8 (with one promoted to Night Beast to fill up points) sounds like a game which could go either way.

I agree Gold to Blue feels weird. A single-point-initative increase is unusual (the only one that springs to mind is the TIE/x1) and it's usually 4 points not 2. I get that faction-specific stuff might change this, but Dedicated doesn't feel that devastating and nor is it that cheap.

It's a good ship.

If you're running Gold Squadron.

Past that it's complete and utter garbage entirely due to cost. It isn't very agile, it will lose actions often, but its cheap so if you have enough, you will have shots and you will block stuff. Sometimes yourself.

9 minutes ago, Captain Lackwit said:

Past that it's complete and utter garbage entirely due to cost.

Agreed.

Looking at it without any question of cost, it's not a bad little chassis:

• roll/link/evade is not as good as roll/link/focus (or calculate) but it's quite rare for a cheap swarmer to get any linked actions,
• having a missile slot and target lock is nice since it lets you give it a tolerable punch if you have a handful of points spare
• at 5 hull it's not massively more fragile than a TIE/sa, so the odds are it'll live long enough to fire unless multiple enemies concentrate fire on it.
• Whilst it's pretty slow, with speed 3 banks red and speed 3 turns unavailable, it's not bad close-in with both koiogran turns and talon rolls and every speed 1 and 2 manoeuvre (in varying colours)

Using V-19s = Two naked Golds

That's it. They're my Republic starting point.

I don't think of using them in any other way, and I'm OK with it. 50 points that is destined to die. Hopefully it distracts or annoys enough to make it worthwhile.

A friend of mine runs 4x Gold Squadron with Sinker (+ Shield Upgrade) and a generic Arc.

It is a brutal list, simply due to how much killing the Torrents take.

There's nothing wrong with the ship, the issue is the costing of the other pilots. The Blue Squadron generics pay too much for their initiative boost and talent slot access, and the unique pilots are too expensive for what they bring to the table.

13 hours ago, theBitterFig said:

Nope. Non-Gold Torrents: Clearly overpriced. Non-104th ARCs: not nearly as clear. The spread between 104th and Squad Seven is high, but it's a lot harder to say who is wrong.

When the Republic ARC first got points, I kinda felt the Squad Seven Veteran at 47 was absolutely spot-on in price, but the 104th was an outlier with how much lower it was than what I'd expect. Compare to a B-Wing, for example, and how much more a 104th gets for 1 point more. Or compare to a Special Forces Gunner TIE/sf, which is 44 points. The ARC is 2 points cheaper and doesn't fly quite as well, but the ARC is tankier and has an always-on 3/2 red dice statline, as opposed to 3/0 or 2/2 which has to be chosen at time-of-action.

But on the other hand, the 104th hasn't been causing problems with it's price. It kind of shows that, to a certain extent, what matters are the breakpoints more than the particular price. ARCs aren't in the 5-per-list bracket, B-Wings aren't in the 5-per-list Bracket, and maybe it doesn't matter if there's a minor cost difference, because they aren't in the same faction. There will be particular sets of upgrades and total squads (4x 104th with 7th Fleet Gunner should be priced out), but often a point or two doesn't really matter.

Oddball dropping down to about Wolfe-price does make sense to me. There are enough Init 5s out there who are the same or cheaper than strong Init 3 and 4 pilots. Duchess, Rexler, Tallie, Thane, Tomax.

But I just have a minor issue with the Squad Seven being the same price as the Kimogila; I kinda feel like a SSV should be +2 points over a Cartel Executioner. More realistically the Kimogila probably needs a price cut, as well as Rebel ARCs, and TIE/sf, and probably two dozen other things.

//

Overall, I just can't shake the feeling that if the 104th had cost 44/45, folks wouldn't have felt 47 for a Squad Seven was out-of-line.

I'm not saying the 104th needs a price increase, but mostly that the frame-of-reference will impact how we view ships.

104th Arc is clearly undercosted, if taking the other Rebel Arcs and Kimogila in consideration (And yes, I have flown both Rebel Arcs, M12L (a lot) and Republic Arcs, so I've seen them all in action). Now, comparing to the overall field of all ships, M12L and Rebel Arcs (and the others you named above) are overcosted, and the 104th seems fine.

12 hours ago, theBitterFig said:

First, you kind of missed one of the strongest things about the arc: an amazing action bar. Focus, Lock, Evade, Roll > red Evade. That's quite good. TIEs lack the Lock and linked Evade. Z-95s lack white Rolls. Vultures have a nice action bar, but go squish.

Second, the Torrent's straight-line speed isn't too bad. 3 blue straight and 4 white are decent. It doesn't bank or turn particularly quick, but the straight moves are as good as most other swarmers.

Lastly, most factions have some sort of cheap swarmers. Torrents are in far better shape than most of those. TIEs have the Howlswarm archetype going for them, but I think Torrents are perhaps the 2nd best at their function, and probably the most interesting of the bunch. The dial adds character. Nice actions provide more potential for a high-skill player to leverage the capacity of the ship. The hit points are better than the others. Z-95s stink. TIE/fo are probably worse as swarmers. Vultures are empirically performing worse in competition, but at least they're kind of interesting.

"How (other than cheaper non-Golds) to fix the Torrent" just doesn't seem like an urgent thread to me. Comparatively speaking, the structure of the Torrent is fine. I don't think that's toxic positivity (which can be real, to be sure), but an honest comparison to other ships. Mostly those with a similar role, but a bunch of ships are in a worse spot than Torrents.

So much this, with the Torrent chassis nothing is wrong, normally cannot be one-shotted and it has a linked action (find someone else in that bracket!). As a lot of others above have said already, just drop the named pilots slightly. FFG probably erred a little bit too much on the side of caution, afraid of the Sinker interactions. I'd also guess, if you are too aggressive with the Torrent's price cut, you run into trouble fast.

13 hours ago, ficklegreendice said:

it's fine to have awful abilities, especially at higher Initiative (honestly, that should be the M.O)

just...you know...adjust points accordingly

This.

12 hours ago, DarthSempai said:

Honestly i'd much prefer it if the norm was that high I pilot had worse ability. Makes it more of a meaningful choice when you have to decide between : ''Do I want the awesome Countess Ryad ability, but I have to get really good with it to make it worth it, or do I stick to the cheaper but easier and less rewarding Rexler Brath?'' High I is already a strong advantage, we don't need more Wedge in the game.

IMO some very rare ships could have both a very skilled pilot with an awesome ability, if they are priced accordingly / can't take as many upgrade / have ability that combo less with upgrades (for example if Wedge's ability only worked on primary attack ) but these should be very few are far between, as a way to showcase a really strong pilot. However FFg kinda missed the mark here in my opinion by doing certain ships with high PS and very poor ability (Kylo Ren, Rexler, Oddball, etc) but then also have some super ace that are just better than every pilot from their chassis while not costing much more (Wedge, Sontir Fel, Darth Maul, etc.)

This. (I said this earlier, already at the dawn of 2nd edition) I really wish FFG had in all factions given the cool abilities to ini 3-4, occasionally ini2, quite boring or difficult to use abilities for 5, and actually no ability at all to ini 6. Making real decisions while list-building, and seeing more variety overall.

And oh, addendum. Barrage rockets imho are boring. Making a 3 dice ship out of a 2 dice ship, meh. Feels like the Veteran Instinct upgrade.

14 hours ago, DarthSempai said:

Buuuuut all in all it all comes down to point, so there's always hope to just fix it like this. A lot of I4 / I5 pilot are already really good pick. It could also be nice to have a few more unique pilot with especially low I like Wampa or deathfire.

This cannot be overstated. The problem with High-I pilots with super abilities is they then have to cost a WHOLE lot (and usually don’t right now). If they were actually paying enough for their initiative and paying enough for their ability, they wouldn’t be taken nearly as much because you could get 4 I4 aces for the same price as 2 I6s on average (though probably with a lighter upgrade suite.).

The problem is that currently I5 and especially I6 don’t pay nearly enough for their initiative (exceptions like Dash and Boba aside) while I4 and especially I3 are paying WAY too much for theirs.

I want pilot choice to be meaningful. One clear best per chassis is sad; make them all tempting at their price point!

The golds are ok, but the others besides being too expensive, they also have quite mediocre abilities.

So definitely need a price drop.

all i can say on torrents... is I'm excited for the Nubian fighters to come out. lol

Can't imagine n1s being anywhere near the torrent cost range. Full throttle ain't no joke

Esp with the i5 getting extra dice if he moves faster than his attacker/defenders + juke...+r4

Better at least be arc prices

36 minutes ago, ficklegreendice said:

Can't imagine n1s being anywhere near the torrent cost range. Full throttle ain't no joke

Esp with the i5 getting extra dice if he moves faster than his attacker/defenders + juke...+r4

Better at least be arc prices

Is full throttle worth more than +1 attack die & hull upgrade? Keeping in mind that N1s are a lot squishier than Defenders and don't have a white kturn? I think they'll wind up being priced similar to X-wings, but I'm not sure they deserve to be that expensive.