Hello ,

I have a problem with a black attack dice,to be exact i cannot see them correctly from afar. Is it possible/legal to change a paint filling of the symbols ?

Per the Tournament Regulations: "Players may mark dice with a permanent or indelible marker to indicate ownership in an unobtrusive manner but cannot otherwise alter them in any way."

So officially, no.

This section deals with dice:

Players may mark dice with a permanent or indelible marker to indicate ownership in an unobtrusive manner but cannot otherwise alter them in any way.

Interpret it how you will, personally I'd say it's fine to repaint the symbols under this rule.

i had the same thought, its just that the rules are really wishy washy about it.

for casual purposes, you're probably okay (might even let your opponent use them too), but if you played in a tournament, they most likely won't allow them.

i'd recommend just asking your opponent to roll closer to you, since you can't see, or ask them to use a dice tray. you could also bring other dice and request that you both use them, since you find it difficult to see the black dice properly.

i have to say i really don't like this years dice much at all. they look pretty good under very bright lights. other than that, they're not very nice at all. would rather use pleb original dice to be honest.

8 hours ago, theBitterFig said:

Per the Tournament Regulations: "Players may mark dice with a permanent or indelible marker to indicate ownership in an unobtrusive manner but cannot otherwise alter them in any way."

So officially, no.

3 hours ago, nikk whyte said:

i had the same thought, its just that the rules are really wishy washy about it.

Its really not. Its pretty clear that outside of marking them for ownership, you cant modify them. Whats wishy washy about that?

7 minutes ago, Lyianx said:

Its really not. Its pretty clear that outside of marking them for ownership, you cant modify them. Whats wishy washy about that?

What is considered marking them for ownership? I'm of the opinion that you can mark the dice in any way you want with a marker including a dot somewhere on the die, drawing a line along each edge, coloring in the recessed areas, drawing a little image on the blank side. I think just about any thing short of drawing a result on the blank side or adding a red dot to the center of a hit to make it look like a crit should be allowed.

One thing to consider is that marking dice is considered acceptable if you are using a marker - in other words, using ink , which can't really alter the rolling profile of the dice in any significant way. Using paint , on the other hand, does add a small but measurable amount of mass to the die, which can change the way it rolls. That's why painting dice is, I believe, much more frowned upon than simply marking them with ink.

A particularly unscrupulous player could even add weight to their dice, then disguise the addition with paint, while claiming that it's just an aesthetic modification. That's also why third party dice are frowned upon at official events; there's no way to guarantee they roll fairly, while FFG-provided dice are, at least, ASSUMED to be reasonably balanced.

1 hour ago, emeraldbeacon said:

One thing to consider is that marking dice is considered acceptable if you are using a marker - in other words, using ink , which can't really alter the rolling profile of the dice in any significant way. Using paint , on the other hand, does add a small but measurable amount of mass to the die, which can change the way it rolls. That's why painting dice is, I believe, much more frowned upon than simply marking them with ink.

A particularly unscrupulous player could even add weight to their dice, then disguise the addition with paint, while claiming that it's just an aesthetic modification. That's also why third party dice are frowned upon at official events; there's no way to guarantee they roll fairly, while FFG-provided dice are, at least, ASSUMED to be reasonably balanced.

I don't have my dice on me right now, so i can't say for certain what sides are all opposites, but adding weight to a marked side via paint would make that side less likely to show up. I.e., more likely a non-marked (blank) side to show up.

Like ffg dice are balanced enough that it would matter.

The rule does say "unobtrusive". I'd say that recoloring the symbols is the very antithesis of unobtrusive.

Again, you have to look at what is reasonable for marking ownership. Painting, is not a reasonable way to mark ownership. Typically, when you mark ownership, you mark it *enough* that you can tell its yours, and no more than that. Painting, is excessive to that goal. If anyone i was around tried to debate that painting is just marking ownership, i would question what all hes done to his dice.

I personally, just use a sharpie and put a small dot somewhere in the paint area that i can easily find. I put it in the painted area (as i said, only s small dot) so it doesn't rub off.

FFG dice are not always balanced, but thats hardly the point. Even if you got 3rd party dice that are perfectly balanced, it would always be in question if they were weighted because FFG did not make them. Which is why they dont allow 3rd party dice at official events. Same reason they dont allow 3rd party obstacles/devices. Are the official cardboard ones all the exact same size and shape? No, there are discrepancies. But its within FFG's tolerances, were as they cannot guarantee that with 3rd party ones.

17 minutes ago, Lyianx said:

Same reason they dont allow 3rd party obstacles/devices. Are the official cardboard ones all the exact same size and shape? No, there are discrepancies. But its within FFG's tolerances, were as they cannot guarantee that with 3rd party ones.

You can use third party template. Starting from there, not allowing obstacles or device is illogical.

For the dice, someone that really want to cheat can modify official dice easly. Again, this illogical and a bad argument. The only way to make sure you don't cheat is to give the dice on the tournament day. That is why there is no official casino dice that you can bring...

And I could use a knife to change the size of device / obstacles... But there is no real edge to gain there anyway

Of course. No method is 100% fool proof. If someone really wants to cheat, they will find a way to do it. They put those rules in place because its as much as they can do. Yes, you can mod official dice, but its much easier to buy dice that are just made to roll one way, and forcing official dice is like locking your car. It wont stop everyone, but it "keeps people honest" as they say (removes the easy possibility/temptation i think its suppose to mean).

And maneuver/range ruler templates are easy to compare/check or just force both players to use one set. To do that with obstacles, you'd have to have one of ALL of them, to find and compare/check them, which is more of a pain in the ***. That said, i want to make it clear that i dont *really* have a problem with 3rd party obstacles, but if im running an event, i have to restrict it due to tournament rules.

and yea, you can do that to obstacles, and it doesnt really matter because, of course, it would affect both players. but it would also be alittle more obvious that you've done that.

You see, you can force your opponent to share dice. If they come with custom dice you could say: I will also use them. Sure who does it, and it is also true for template, who ask to share. You have as much chance to be discovered with illegal template as you are with illegal dice. I seen people using custom dice and we shared their dice. If someone cheat, they will not want to share the dice anyway.

And there is so many "Official" dice now that it is quite easy to find unofficial one that will look like official one. If someone want to cheat they can... this is way more easier then you seems to think. We are far from having your car unlocked... To unlock a car you need skill. To "cheat" a dice, you just need to find a web site that sell similar enough one. ****, you just need to put it in the oven for the correct amount of time...

As for device / obstacle, I always bring official one and offer my opponent the choice, most often then not they do not really care. Obstacle are so random anyway, for device, the gain would be there with a bigger one, but it could also backfire so...

Edit: It is like the "useless" middle line, I still use my old template without it, anyway, no one have good enough eye to say they are really exactly on the middle line

1 hour ago, muribundi said:

You have as much chance to be discovered with illegal template as you are with illegal dice

Except TO's will usually check templates before matches. You cant exactly 'check' dice.

1 hour ago, muribundi said:

To "cheat" a dice, you just need to find a web site that sell similar enough one.

Go ahead and try...The vast majority of them change the look so its super clear they are unofficial. This site sells dice that could pass as official to someone not paying attention, but if you spend any time to look at them it becomes obvious they are not FFG. This leads me to believe any dice made to be intentionally cheaty, you'd have to put some decent effort into finding as places like the subreddit or this forum, wouldn't allow posting/advertisement of such sites.

And melting dice also requires effort, to get the temp and timing right and just to flat out do. So yes, its fairly equivalent to locking your car in that those who *really* want to cheat, still will, but those who just had a passing thought about it, likely wont put in the effort to do so. THAT is what I meant by that analogy.

Never seen a TO check my template. And I don't want to try, I never wanted to cheat, I say that if some one is a cheater, he can easily cheat at this game. No one just cheat on a passing thought like no one steal a car, just because the car is unlocked. You are aware that convertible car or motorcycle have 0 use to lock door, and they will not just be stolen as soon as you leave them. First, because you need to know how to start them without key, second, because most people don't want to commit criminal act. I lock my car door because I don't want people to steal what I have in them...

My point is, if some want to cheat, these rule does not prevent them at all. Why, because if you have the cheater mentality, you know what to do to cheat. There is no such thing as a light cheater, willing to take the risk to cheat but not really willing to put effort into cheating...

18 hours ago, muribundi said:

No one just cheat on a passing thought like no one steal a car, just because the car is unlocked. You are aware that convertible car or motorcycle have 0 use to lock door, and they will not just be stolen as soon as you leave them. First, because you need to know how to start them without key, second, because most people don't want to commit criminal act. I lock my car door because I don't want people to steal what I have in them

You're going way too far with that. Im not implying someone would steal the car, just the stuff inside it. Radio's being a common one, or just something you left inside. Had a friend had a bunch of music CD's stolen from his car at one point because he left it unlocked. So no, doesnt have to be the entire car or nothing.

18 hours ago, muribundi said:

Never seen a TO check my template.

I have a few times. But typically If i dont recognize where they are from. Had a few that have home made range rules and yes, i checked them and yes, one of them was not correct size. But most ive seen i know the design of and where they come from. A couple are ffg's, most these days seem to be from curled paws.