Does Advanced Sensors trigger on the reveal dial step of activation or does it trigger on flipping the dial.

(That issue was never solved in a rulesgroup on FB )

After you reveal your dial, you may perform 1 action.

If you do, you cannot perform another action during your activation.

After you reveal the dial, before you execute the manoeuvre. What is confusing?

RR page 19 under Timing:

"• After: The effect resolves immediately following the timing specified."

i don't see how that is an issue that cannot be solved in a rules group. it's super clear.

essentially, it's still during the reveal dial step, but i don't see how that could be relevant. for all intents and purposes, it might as well be after the reveal dial step and before executing the maneuver step.

I guess they're wondering how it interacts with Snoke or another whatnot that flips the dial out of order.

Imho, Snoke has no interaction with it, including the fact you will reveal the dial at appropriate time even if it's been flipped beforehand - nothing in the rules indicates that dial already flipped cannot be revealed, revelation doesn't happen only for dials that have never been assigned.

9 hours ago, Ryfterek said:

I guess they're wondering how it interacts with Snoke or another whatnot that flips the dial out of order.

Imho, Snoke has no interaction with it, including the fact you will reveal the dial at appropriate time even if it's been flipped beforehand - nothing in the rules indicates that dial already flipped cannot be revealed, revelation doesn't happen only for dials that have never been assigned.

This is my guess as well. And the instructions for Revealing a dial doesnt help to clear it up much.

Quote

Reveal Dial: The ship’s assigned dial is revealed by flipping it faceup and then placing it next to its ship card.

So.. revealing a dial flips it face up, but flipping face up isn't necessarily a reveal... is what im getting from this. But it doesn't answer the question of, if its already face up, does that prevent it from being flipped and thus, revealed? Who knows at this point. Its one of the many nuances that FFG needs to clarify and not use words interchangeably.

My own judgment (and this is just personal) even tho it doesnt point it out... and ill use Snoke as an example.

"During the System Phase" in Snokes case means the dial only remains faceup during the timing specified (system phase) and at the end of the phase, it returns to normal. It doesnt *say* to flip it back down at the end, but it could be implied. Now if FFG comes back and says "no snoke pretty much prevents advanced sensors from working", well then, so be it.

seems legit idk

my thoughts exactly, @svelok . there is nothing indicating a flipped up dial cannot be revealed. in fact, looking at the rules for ion and the mentioning of situations where a ship skips its reveal dial step, i think it's pretty clear that all ships must reveal their dial every activation, unless stated otherwise (such as for an ionized ship).

Started to actually think hehe.

Activation

1 Reveal Dial

2 Execute Maneuver: The ship executes the maneuver on the revealed dial.

If Snok would skip the reveal step, then you would also skip the maneuver step (since it refers to the reveal) and stand still.

That doesnt seem like a very likley design =p

3 hours ago, svelok said:

seems legit idk

I do remember seeing that now. I also remember questioning the validity of it. Not that i think someone would go so far as to fake it, but if real, this is still only a PM to someone specific, and not an official ruling to the public. If this is legit, they really need to, at the very least, add it to the Official Rulings thread on this forum.

Also, not sure how you got that screen shot, but in the Reddit thread the link to it no longer works, which makes me question it even more. Not saying its wrong necessarily, but it would be nice to have an unquestionable official source.

3 hours ago, Muppetfluffer said:

If Snok would skip the reveal step,

No one is suggesting it does, nor does the card itself say that. Just that flipping a dial faceup leaves nothing to 'reveal' as its already been revealed. Which if it did work that way, would still allow for the maneuver to be executed. It would just prevent ability's that would normally trigger from the reveal of the dial.

11 hours ago, Lyianx said:

Just that flipping a dial faceup leaves nothing to 'reveal' as its already been revealed. Which if it did work that way, would still allow for the maneuver to be executed.

The flaw is in the first sentence - there is no rule hinting that flipping a dial face up causes it to be revealed. One thing we know is that one has to flip their dial face up upon revealing it. It's kind of a rectangles vs squares scenario, works one way but not necessarily the other. Merely flipped dial is not revealed, but the revealded dial has to be flipped.

Now, that out of the way, we could argue that with flipping the dial face up being an obligatory step of revealing it may mean you cannot reveal it anymore.

Except you're supposed to execute the manoeuvre selected on the revealed dial, not the flipped dial, what would in turn, as highlighted before by @Muppetfluffer , bring the ship to halt without consequences.

Also, the act of revealing the dial is actually composed of two activities: flipping it and placing it next to the ship card - what no one ever does, but still - further reinforcing that flipping in the system phase does not exhaust the conditions of revealing a dial and should not prevent one from revealing it during activation.

13 hours ago, Lyianx said:

I do remember seeing that now. I also remember questioning the validity of it. Not that i think someone would go so far as to fake it, but if real, this is still only a PM to someone specific, and not an official ruling to the public. If this is legit, they really need to, at the very least, add it to the Official Rulings thread on this forum.

Also, not sure how you got that screen shot, but in the Reddit thread the link to it no longer works, which makes me question it even more. Not saying its wrong necessarily, but it would be nice to have an unquestionable official source.

it's bull, but I believe it

4 hours ago, Ryfterek said:

The flaw is in the first sentence - there is no rule hinting that flipping a dial face up causes it to be revealed.

I believe i said that. Revealing causes it to be flipped face up, but flipping face up isnt necessarily a reveal. Its a stretch, but the dial being face up could be argued that it is "revealed", but hasn't been revealed.

When it comes right down to it, there are three possibilities (in my mind).

1. FFG is just using flip face up interchangeably with reveal and they mean the same thing (wouldnt be the first time they've done this kind of thing).

2. Flipping face up only lasts until the end of the phase in which it was flipped, then returns to its normal 'face down' status.

3. Flipping and Reveal are mechanically different, but by some "because i said so" ruling FFG says you can still 'reveal' a face up dial, even tho it doesn't make any sense to do so, but that's just how they say it works because "reasons" (again, wouldn't be the first time they've done this).

Regardless, im sure there are flaws in my assumptions. I think we are all pretty much taking a stab in the dark over this and trying to figure out htf FFG wants us to treat these interactions.

On 5/11/2019 at 11:43 PM, Lyianx said:

I do remember seeing that now. I also remember questioning the validity of it. Not that i think someone would go so far as to fake it, but if real, this is still only a PM to someone specific, and not an official ruling to the public. If this is legit, they really need to, at the very least, add it to the Official Rulings thread on this forum.

Also, not sure how you got that screen shot, but in the Reddit thread the link to it no longer works, which makes me question it even more. Not saying its wrong necessarily, but it would be nice to have an unquestionable official source.

No one is suggesting it does, nor does the card itself say that. Just that flipping a dial faceup leaves nothing to 'reveal' as its already been revealed. Which if it did work that way, would still allow for the maneuver to be executed. It would just prevent ability's that would normally trigger from the reveal of the dial.

Thanx for posting that. In my area if someone used informant on an AS-equipped ship, that ship lost its ability to use AS, as the dial was flipped up, and never brought back to its original state. Now Frank overrules this.