Now that we have "Return of the Jedi Luke's Lightsaber," what would you change to Commander Skywalker's stats to suit his RotJ self?

I'm thinking FR4/5, 342254, one more rank in Discipline and Lightsaber, Parry 4 (possibly Improved Parry), Improved Reflect 4, Ataru Technique, and Influence.

Edit - Here is my final Return of the Jedi build, something I hope to use in an upcoming post-RotJ short Star Wars campaign (effectively a new telling of how he rebuilt his new Jedi Order):

Luke Skywalker, Jedi Knight

Brawn 3, Agility 4, Intellect 2, Cunning 3, Willpower 5, Presence 4

Soak 4, Wound 16, Strain 18, M/R Defense 0/0

Skills : Astrogation 2, Athletics 3, Cool 3, Coordination 3, Discipline 4, Gunnery 4, Leadership 2, Lightsaber 4, Mechanics 3, Perception 2, Piloting (Planetary) 4, Piloting (Space) 5, Ranged (Light) 3, Resilience 2, Survival 3, Vigilance 3

Talents : Adversary 3, Ataru Technique, Exhaust Port, Force Rating 5, Natural Pilot, Improved Parry 4, Improved Reflect 4, Touch of Fate.

Abilities : One in a Million,
Enhance (Luke may also use this power when making Coordination, Piloting (Planetary), or Piloting (Space) checks. He may make an Enhance power check as a maneuver to spend a Force Pip to leap to any location within short range, or two Force Pips to leap to any location within medium range.),
Foresee ,
Influence (Luke may make an opposed Discipline versus Discipline check combined with an Influence power check . If he spends a Force Pip and succeeds on the check, he can force the target within short range to adopt an emotional state or believe something untrue, lasting for 2 rounds or 10 minutes. He may spend a Force Pip to stress the mind of 1 living target he is engaged with, inflicting 2 strain.),
Move (Luke may also spend a Force pip to increase the power’s range to medium range, and spend a Force Pip to increase the size of the object he can move to silhouette 2.),
Sense (Luke may also spend two Force Pips to increase the range to medium, or spend a Force Pip to sense the emotional state of one living target with whom he is engaged.)

Equipment : Comlink, heavy clothing (+1 soak), Luke Skywalker’s Lightsaber (Lightsaber; Damage 6; Critical 1; Range [Engaged]; Breach 1, Return of the Jedi, Sunder, Vicious 2)

1 minute ago, Underachiever599 said:

Now that we have "Return of the Jedi Luke's Lightsaber," what would you change to Commander Skywalker's stats to suit his RotJ self?

I'm thinking FR4, 342254, one more rank in Discipline and Lightsaber, Ataru Technique, and Influence.

If I remember correctly, canonically, Luke is more of a Shien user, focusing on blaster deflection more than dueling.

2 hours ago, Tramp Graphics said:

If I remember correctly, canonically, Luke is more of a Shien user, focusing on blaster deflection more than dueling.

He is, but canon form use=/=game mechanics. For example, Maul and Ahsoka are known for their use of Forms VII and V, respectively. But their stats list both as using Ataru Technique to make use of their high agility. Likewise, Yoda is the most prominent Form IV user in all of Star Wars, but his stat block uses Niman, because Willpower is his highest attribute.

So, with that in mind, I attributed Luke with Ataru, both because it uses his high Agility, and because his style does implement aspects of that form.

14 hours ago, Underachiever599 said:

He is, but canon form use=/=game mechanics. For example, Maul and Ahsoka are known for their use of Forms VII and V, respectively. But their stats list both as using Ataru Technique to make use of their high agility. Likewise, Yoda is the most prominent Form IV user in all of Star Wars, but his stat block uses Niman, because Willpower is his highest attribute.

So, with that in mind, I attributed Luke with Ataru, both because it uses his high Agility, and because his style does implement aspects of that form.

I disagree with that assessment. Luke doesn't use a lot of acrobatics in his actual fighting, which is a hallmark of Ataru. By the same token, I disagree with the developers giving Yoda Niman, when he' canonically an Ataru master. I also disagree with their assigning Asoka Ataru, when she's specifically established as a Shien user. Maul, however, certainly uses aspects of Ataru in his fighting, given how acrobatic he is while fighting Qui-Gon and Obi-Wan. If anything, he should have both Ataru and Juyo.

If a given style was just about which attribute you use, then yes, these would make sense. However, a lightsaber form is much more than simply what attribute you use for your lightsaber skill.

6 minutes ago, Tramp Graphics said:

I disagree with that assessment. Luke doesn't use a lot of acrobatics in his actual fighting, which is a hallmark of Ataru. By the same token, I disagree with the developers giving Yoda Niman, when he' canonically an Ataru master. I also disagree with their assigning Asoka Ataru, when she's specifically established as a Shien user. Maul, however, certainly uses aspects of Ataru in his fighting, given how acrobatic he is while fighting Qui-Gon and Obi-Wan. If anything, he should have both Ataru and Juyo.

If a given style was just about which attribute you use, then yes, these would make sense. However, a lightsaber form is much more than simply what attribute you use for your lightsaber skill.

I agree that a lightsaber form is more than just what attribute you use. But whereas your viewpoint is backed only by lore, mine is backed by established precedent in the various books.

As for Luke "not using a whole lot of acrobatics," I have to disagree there. Frontflipping over Vader and also using a spin right at the start of their Cloud City encounter, jumping over attacks from Jabba's minions, using several leaps to avoid Vader's attacks on the Death Star II. These are all examples of him utilizing acrobatics in combat, and therefore evidence that he might be at least somewhat familiar with Form IV. Just because Luke is predominantly a Form V user doesn't mean he never makes use of other forms.

Just now, Underachiever599 said:

I agree that a lightsaber form is more than just what attribute you use. But whereas your viewpoint is backed only by lore, mine is backed by established precedent in the various books.

As for Luke "not using a whole lot of acrobatics," I have to disagree there. Frontflipping over Vader and also using a spin right at the start of their Cloud City encounter, jumping over attacks from Jabba's minions, using several leaps to avoid Vader's attacks on the Death Star II. These are all examples of him utilizing acrobatics in combat, and therefore evidence that he might be at least somewhat familiar with Form IV. Just because Luke is predominantly a Form V user doesn't mean he never makes use of other forms.

I think you missed my point. Watch Yoda's fights with Dooku and Sidious. In both cases, as is a hallmark of Ataru, Yoda actually makes strikes while in the process of doing flips and somersaults. Luke might leap over an enemy or flip to get away from an enemy, but he's never actually making strikes as is he doing so. His actual fighting style is much more similar to his father's.

You also missed my point where I said I disagree with the "precedent set" .

• Yoda's stats, should not have Niman because it does not match what we see, and what is established, in the canon . He should be listed with Ataru, because that is what we see him use in canon. He boosts his weakened Agility with Enhance , and uses Ataru in combat, constantly flipping, and cartwheeling, while striking at his opponent.
• Ahsoka's stats should not have Ataru because it does not match the canon. She should be listed with Shien, because that's what she uses in canon .
• Maul's stats having Ataru does match what we see in the canon; as such, I am fine with that. By the same token, he should also have Juyo in conjunction with Ataru.

They could've sidestepped the whole issue by just using the Renegade Form talent. Pretty fitting for both Luke and Maul who weren't strictly products of of the formalized Jedi Order training.

2 hours ago, Tramp Graphics said:

I think you missed my point. Watch Yoda's fights with Dooku and Sidious. In both cases, as is a hallmark of Ataru, Yoda actually makes strikes while in the process of doing flips and somersaults. Luke might leap over an enemy or flip to get away from an enemy, but he's never actually making strikes as is he doing so. His actual fighting style is much more similar to his father's.

You also missed my point where I said I disagree with the "precedent set" .

• Yoda's stats, should not have Niman because it does not match what we see, and what is established, in the canon . He should be listed with Ataru, because that is what we see him use in canon. He boosts his weakened Agility with Enhance , and uses Ataru in combat, constantly flipping, and cartwheeling, while striking at his opponent.
• Ahsoka's stats should not have Ataru because it does not match the canon. She should be listed with Shien, because that's what she uses in canon .
• Maul's stats having Ataru does match what we see in the canon; as such, I am fine with that. By the same token, he should also have Juyo in conjunction with Ataru.

Obi-Wan and Qui-Gon were Form IV practitioners in Episode I, remember? Yet I'd say Obi-Wan's and Qui-Gon's displayed fighting styles much more closely resembled Luke's than it does Yoda's. Yoda is more of an exception than the rule when it comes to Form IV combat, as he takes the form to an extreme level that we don't really see from other characters. Normal use of Form IV is much, much less flashy than Yoda's. And even with that said, I'm not saying Form IV is Luke's preferred form, just that it's one in his arsenal. Through the lense of game mechanics instead of lore, it's one that makes sense for him.

But fine, we'll humor you. How would you alter the stats of the current Luke build to transition into his RotJ self?

I'm thinking (for the sake of using Shien) 342354, FR4 or 5, Wound 18, Strain 21 (just raising them both by 5 from where he is currently), Lightsaber 4 or 5, Discipline 4, Vigilance 3 (don't recall the rest of his skills off the top of my head, but these are the only three I feel need to change), add Parry 4, Improved Reflect 4, Shien Technique, Influence, and a Strength upgrade for Move. He already has One in a Million and Touch of Fate, letting him punch way above his weight class. And with his RotJ Lightsaber, he has a weapon with Crit 1 and Vicious 2, that also has a pretty neat special ability.

While I'm no stranger to diving into the details of NPC stat blocks to see how the lore translates into mechanics, at the end of the day surely the form talents were chosen by which characteristic they link to, not as a statement about the in-universe fighting styles of these characters.

2 hours ago, penpenpen said:

They could've sidestepped the whole issue by just using the Renegade Form talent. Pretty fitting for both Luke and Maul who weren't strictly products of of the formalized Jedi Order training.

Renegade Form would probably work fine, too.

Honestly, I'm surprised they gave Maul and Ahsoka Ataru, which doesn't match lore, instead of giving them the generic "Lightsaber Mastery" from the Inquisitor section of F&D

3 minutes ago, Underachiever599 said:

Obi-Wan and Qui-Gon were Form IV practitioners in Episode I, remember? Yet I'd say Obi-Wan's and Qui-Gon's displayed fighting styles much more closely resembled Luke's than it does Yoda's. Yoda is more of an exception than the rule when it comes to Form IV combat, as he takes the form to an extreme level that we don't really see from other characters. Normal use of Form IV is much, much less flashy than Yoda's. And even with that said, I'm not saying Form IV is Luke's preferred form, just that it's one in his arsenal. Through the lense of game mechanics instead of lore, it's one that makes sense for him.

But fine, we'll humor you. How would you alter the stats of the current Luke build to transition into his RotJ self?

I'm thinking (for the sake of using Shien) 342354, FR4 or 5, Wound 18, Strain 21 (just raising them both by 5 from where he is currently), Lightsaber 4 or 5, Discipline 4, Vigilance 3 (don't recall the rest of his skills off the top of my head, but these are the only three I feel need to change), add Parry 4, Improved Reflect 4, Shien Technique, Influence, and a Strength upgrade for Move. He already has One in a Million and Touch of Fate, letting him punch way above his weight class. And with his RotJ Lightsaber, he has a weapon with Crit 1 and Vicious 2, that also has a pretty neat special ability.

Considering I don’t even own the book in question, I don’t have access to his stats.

2 minutes ago, Stan Fresh said:

While I'm no stranger to diving into the details of NPC stat blocks to see how the lore translates into mechanics, at the end of the day surely the form talents were chosen by which characteristic they link to, not as a statement about the in-universe fighting styles of these characters.

Precisely, which I personally feel was the wrong choice. They should have followed the lore more closely. It’s not the first time they “screwed up” like this either. Look at the YZ-775. The lore explicitly states that it can carry fourteen passengers and four hundred tons of cargo, yet the Devs gave it a passenger capacity of zero , and an encumbrance of eight hundred fifty. Those game stats don’t match the lore at all.

Just now, Underachiever599 said:

Renegade Form would probably work fine, too.

Honestly, I'm surprised they gave Maul and Ahsoka Ataru, which doesn't match lore, instead of giving them the generic "Lightsaber Mastery" from the Inquisitor section of F&D

Agreed.

Mechanical design trumps lore considerations. This is a game, after all.

2 minutes ago, Stan Fresh said:

Mechanical design trumps lore considerations. This is a game, after all.

On this we disagree . The mechanics should follow the lore as closely as it can, especially in a role -playing game. The lore is the very foundation of the game world after all. If there’s a serious incongruity between the game and the lore it breaks the suspension of disbelief.

12 hours ago, Underachiever599 said:

Renegade Form would probably work fine, too.

Honestly, I'm surprised they gave Maul and Ahsoka Ataru, which doesn't match lore, instead of giving them the generic "Lightsaber Mastery" from the Inquisitor section of F&D

I'm inclined to agree, as Lightsaber Mastery as a special trait works nicely for those characters that utilize a combination of multiple styles in their saber-play.

Lore-wise, I think Luke mostly used Shii-Cho to begin with (due to not really knowing any better), and gradually evolved his fighting style to blend in elements of Ataru and DJem So, and the stat block for Grand Master Luke Skywalker in the Saga Edition splat Jedi Academy Training Manual gave him both the Ataru (use Dexterity for damage) and Djem So (spend Force Point when hit to make an immediate counterattack) talents. Stat-wise, Luke's never really displayed a high degree of Cunning, so for RotJ he probably would lean more towards Ataru in that he uses his Agility for his Lightsaber checks, on top of seeing some pretty nimble evasive footwork in TLJ during his face-off with Kylo Ren (even if said footwork was done to prevent breaking the illusion).

Lore-wise, Yoda has been an Ataru master, but it's likely that the person who did Yoda's stat block for FFG didn't want give the little green dude an obscene Agility. Of course, easy way around that is to simply give Yoda the Enhance control upgrade to let him commit some of his many Force dice to bolster his Agility checks... which lines up perfectly with what we see in the films, in that Yoda relies upon the Force to "take Ataru to its highest level," thus he could have a base Agility of 2 or 3, and then use Enhance to add more dice to his Lightsaber checks. But it's also a complication the writer either didn't want to deal with, or something that got removed in playtesting and/or editing. Or it was decided that "well, since Yoda pretty much relies upon the Force to be able to fight effectively with a lightsaber, I'll just give him Niman Technique to account for him using a Force-enhanced dueling style instead of a purely-physical one."

I don't think Maul ever got a write-up in Saga Edition, so no clue what Lightsaber Form talents he'd have in that ruleset, but Juyo would be a strong bet, as would Ataru for the damage boost. For FFG, in terms of mechanics he'd probably use either Brawn or Agility, and since he was written to have a higher Agility, he gets Ataru Technique as a mechanical consideration, especially as there's no Juyo Technique in this system. So he's a prime example of where using Lightsaber Mastery would work, though you'd probably have people kavitching about him not just having Ataru Technique since he's using Agility.

6 hours ago, Donovan Morningfire said:

I'm inclined to agree, as Lightsaber Mastery as a special trait works nicely for those characters that utilize a combination of multiple styles in their saber-play.

Lore-wise, I think Luke mostly used Shii-Cho to begin with (due to not really knowing any better), and gradually evolved his fighting style to blend in elements of Ataru and DJem So, and the stat block for Grand Master Luke Skywalker in the Saga Edition splat Jedi Academy Training Manual gave him both the Ataru (use Dexterity for damage) and Djem So (spend Force Point when hit to make an immediate counterattack) talents. Stat-wise, Luke's never really displayed a high degree of Cunning, so for RotJ he probably would lean more towards Ataru in that he uses his Agility for his Lightsaber checks, on top of seeing some pretty nimble evasive footwork in TLJ during his face-off with Kylo Ren (even if said footwork was done to prevent breaking the illusion).

Lore-wise, Yoda has been an Ataru master, but it's likely that the person who did Yoda's stat block for FFG didn't want give the little green dude an obscene Agility. Of course, easy way around that is to simply give Yoda the Enhance control upgrade to let him commit some of his many Force dice to bolster his Agility checks... which lines up perfectly with what we see in the films, in that Yoda relies upon the Force to "take Ataru to its highest level," thus he could have a base Agility of 2 or 3, and then use Enhance to add more dice to his Lightsaber checks. But it's also a complication the writer either didn't want to deal with, or something that got removed in playtesting and/or editing. Or it was decided that "well, since Yoda pretty much relies upon the Force to be able to fight effectively with a lightsaber, I'll just give him Niman Technique to account for him using a Force-enhanced dueling style instead of a purely-physical one."

I don't think Maul ever got a write-up in Saga Edition, so no clue what Lightsaber Form talents he'd have in that ruleset, but Juyo would be a strong bet, as would Ataru for the damage boost. For FFG, in terms of mechanics he'd probably use either Brawn or Agility, and since he was written to have a higher Agility, he gets Ataru Technique as a mechanical consideration, especially as there's no Juyo Technique in this system. So he's a prime example of where using Lightsaber Mastery would work, though you'd probably have people kavitching about him not just having Ataru Technique since he's using Agility.

Pretty much exactly where my mind is at. Luke is absolutely a Shii-Cho practitioner prior to Ep V, and his use of acrobatics and speed in V & VI clearly mark him as a Form IV user. I feel IV was a result of his training under Yoda, and the Form V was something he intuitively picked up after facing Vader. I also think he had some skill in Form III, as he's depicted essentially stonewalling Vader multiple times in V & VI.

5 hours ago, Underachiever599 said:

Pretty much exactly where my mind is at. Luke is absolutely a Shii-Cho practitioner prior to Ep V, and his use of acrobatics and speed in V & VI clearly mark him as a Form IV user. I feel IV was a result of his training under Yoda, and the Form V was something he intuitively picked up after facing Vader. I also think he had some skill in Form III, as he's depicted essentially stonewalling Vader multiple times in V & VI.

So interesting little tidbit with Luke, is that in Legends circa the time of AotC he was indicated to be a prodigy at lightsaber combat, having picked up the basics of Forms I and IV with very little training (far less than your average Padawan would have had), and that he almost instinctively mimic'd his father's use of Form V during the climax of their fight in RotJ, in the process completely overwhelming Vader's defenses. In the NJO era and onwards, he was noted to be perhaps the greatest lightsaber duelist the galaxy had known (at least in the mind of Jacen Solo, who considered himself one of the most powerful duelists of his generation).

Makes one wonder just how formidable of a lightsaber duelist Luke would have been had he been properly trained as a Jedi instead of only getting the seat-of-his-pants/trail-by-fire training that he got in the films. Heck, he might even have legitimately become as great a duelist as Anakin thought he was during most of AotC (prior to Dooku setting the record straight).

It's repeatedly been stated that the NPC stat blocks arent designed to be a comprehensive list of everything they know, just the stuff that would represent them mechanically.

So, listing Yoda's Ataru style talent is redundant, because he wouldn't use it much as it wouldn't give any advantage mechanically. Using agility is completely optional unless you're using Hawkbat Swoop (which isn't listed either, so he presumeably doesn't).

Now, while it isn't his primary style, is it unreasonable that Yoda knows enough Niman to make use of one of the more basic talents? Hardly, considering his age.

What I don't get though why Palpatine is alone in getting to use Enhance with lightsaber checks. This, if anything, would seem like the perfect way to represent Yoda's rather unique style of combat.

3 minutes ago, penpenpen said:

It's repeatedly been stated that the NPC stat blocks arent designed to be a comprehensive list of everything they know, just the stuff that would represent them mechanically.

So, listing Yoda's Ataru style talent is redundant, because he wouldn't use it much as it wouldn't give any advantage mechanically. Using agility is completely optional unless you're using Hawkbat Swoop (which isn't listed either, so he presumeably doesn't).

Now, while it isn't his primary style, is it unreasonable that Yoda knows enough Niman to make use of one of the more basic talents? Hardly, considering his age.

What I don't get though why Palpatine is alone in getting to use Enhance with lightsaber checks. This, if anything, would seem like the perfect way to represent Yoda's rather unique style of combat.

“A Jedi uses the Force for knowledge and defense, never for attack.”

1 hour ago, Ebak said:

“A Jedi uses the Force for knowledge and defense, never for attack.”

Of course, Yoda did seek out Palpatine to attack him (and got his little green keister handed to him in the process). I think it's in the novelization that this realization is what causes him to break off the attack.

Overall, the Jedi have a somewhat spotty record while going on the offense. Arguably their greatest victories when it comes to lightsaber combat have indeed been choosing not to fight.

On 5/12/2019 at 9:31 PM, Ebak said:

“A Jedi uses the Force for knowledge and defense, never for attack.”

On 5/12/2019 at 9:48 PM, penpenpen said:

Of course, Yoda did seek out Palpatine to attack him (and got his little green keister handed to him in the process). I think it's in the novelization that this realization is what causes him to break off the attack.

Overall, the Jedi have a somewhat spotty record while going on the offense. Arguably their greatest victories when it comes to lightsaber combat have indeed been choosing not to fight.

Remember, though, that he went to “attack” Palpatine in order to protect the Republic from Sith domination.

On 5/12/2019 at 9:31 PM, Ebak said:

“A Jedi uses the Force for knowledge and defense, never for attack.”

Every attack is a defense... from a certain point of view.

Trying to match Forms to what we see on screen is folly. It wasn't choreographed that way with the Forms in mind.

Yoda demonstrates the features of Ataru because that's pretty much the only way you can film a 2 Ft master of a lightsaber fighting someone at least twice as tall.

I know legends lore got into which forms the various Jedi had "mastered" or "represented" but I don't know how much that's in the current canon (Kanan prefers Soresu according to the Inquisitor, we see a holocron of Anakin teaching form IV I think, etc). The current canon mentions the various forms but I don't know that it's caught up as much into Jedi/Sith adhering closely to a single style. I think the styles work better when conceptualized as a body of techniques instead of as proper "styles" not only because it's more realistic but because they each become their own tool boxes that can be pulled out when needed but still need practice/training to develop.

Which is where we Star Wars nerds will say thats why Yoda studied Ataru...but then why doesn't Qui-gon ever fight like that - anther supposed Ataru practitioner. I've seen many times RPG fans describe the fight between Qui-gon and Maul and about how it shows Ataru's weaknesses etc but Qui-gon does not do fight on film according to the description of Ataru (like Yoda does). Maul is the one jumping around with attacks, not Qui-gon. Obi-wan doesn't either who is also supposedly using Ataru (and abandoned it to study Soresu) - unless of course you count Obi-wan's finishing move of leaping out of a pit, pulling Qui-gon's lightsaber to him and slicing Maul in half as Ataru...but he decided to abandon Ataru anyway?

On 5/10/2019 at 7:46 PM, Underachiever599 said:

I'm thinking FR4/5, 342254, one more rank in Discipline and Lightsaber, Parry 4 (possibly Improved Parry), Improved Reflect 4, Ataru Technique, and Influence.

Looks good to me. I'd say FR4. Add Bind? He chokes the Gamorrean guards.

I agree with the others that the Inquisitor Talent Lightsaber Mastery would have been a better choice for NPC stat blocks over specific Form Talent versions.

I look at NPC stat blocks even for named characters as a ballpark representation. Something you can throw down on the table and get what you need - also if you're reskinning it (e.g., stripping the name off and using the stat block for your own NPC).

It's a starting place for your own modifications. I don't think they meant it to be comprehensive and all encompassing. It's also supposed to be usable which means it can't get too big.

Which leads me to my only real complaint about Allies and Adversaries: why didn't they use the bold font for talents and gear like they have on some of the NPC cards? It makes it actually readable instead of a wall of text.

50 minutes ago, Jedi Ronin said:

Looks good to me. I'd say FR4. Add Bind? He chokes the Gamorrean guards.

Interesting fun fact regarding this scene. There's actually quite a bit of debate about whether or not Luke actually used Force Choke, or a Mind Trick. If you ask most of the folks on the story group, they'll tell you it was a Mind Trick.

Various arguments I've heard are as follows:

1. Sound. Every use of Force Choke in the movies, ever since ANH, has had a very distinct distant rumbling sound. It's subtle, and not a lot of people seem to pick up on it, but it's there in every instance. Aside from Luke's scene with the guards. Curious, and could be solid evidence. Or it could be an error. After all, the OT is full of small mistakes.

2. Novels. Nearly every version of the novelizations I've seen has said something to the effect of, "Luke used the Force to convince the guards to let him pass." I don't recall any of the novelizations actually describing him as Force Choking them.

3. It's honestly hard to make out fully what's going on on-screen. Luke's hand gesture is definitely more passive than what we normally see from a Force Choke, and the guards drop their weapons and back off as if afraid. But aside from one of the guards vaguely moving an arm toward his throat/chest, there's not much to really show they're choking. The restrictive costumes make acting a lot more difficult, and the Gamorreans' reactions that were used don't really sound like a person choking. They just sound like, well, pig noises.

While I, personally, always felt Luke used a Force Choke in that scene, there appears to be enough evidence to argue the point, and the folks in charge of the franchise stand by Luke not using such an aggressive Dark Side power when a simple Mind Trick would let him get through.

2 minutes ago, Underachiever599 said:

Interesting fun fact regarding this scene. There's actually quite a bit of debate about whether or not Luke actually used Force Choke, or a Mind Trick. If you ask most of the folks on the story group, they'll tell you it was a Mind Trick.

Various arguments I've heard are as follows:

1. Sound. Every use of Force Choke in the movies, ever since ANH, has had a very distinct distant rumbling sound. It's subtle, and not a lot of people seem to pick up on it, but it's there in every instance. Aside from Luke's scene with the guards. Curious, and could be solid evidence. Or it could be an error. After all, the OT is full of small mistakes.

2. Novels. Nearly every version of the novelizations I've seen has said something to the effect of, "Luke used the Force to convince the guards to let him pass." I don't recall any of the novelizations actually describing him as Force Choking them.

3. It's honestly hard to make out fully what's going on on-screen. Luke's hand gesture is definitely more passive than what we normally see from a Force Choke, and the guards drop their weapons and back off as if afraid. But aside from one of the guards vaguely moving an arm toward his throat/chest, there's not much to really show they're choking. The restrictive costumes make acting a lot more difficult, and the Gamorreans' reactions that were used don't really sound like a person choking. They just sound like, well, pig noises.

While I, personally, always felt Luke used a Force Choke in that scene, there appears to be enough evidence to argue the point, and the folks in charge of the franchise stand by Luke not using such an aggressive Dark Side power when a simple Mind Trick would let him get through.

Interesting - I've never heard that before. I've always thought the guard was bringing his own hand up like someone was choking him. It could have been a mind trick though. Don't have his stat block in front of me now but I'd add Enhance with a bunch of it's upgrades.