Hey all, I'm trying to increase the fun in this (fairly casual) list:

• Jan Ors with Trick Shot + Engine Upgrade + Moldy Crow
• "Dutch" Vander with Trick Shot + Proton Torpedoes + Dorsal Turret + Veteran Turret Gunner + R4 Astromech
• Wullffwarro with Trick Shot + Saw Gerrera + Jyn Erso + Hull Upgrade

Usually the list is fantastic. It's all the janky shenanigans I ask for in a list, including frequent 4-, 5-, or 6-dice shots (up to 7 dice if all factors align, though that's not very realistic to expect). Those shots have Dutch's lock and Saw's focus->crit to make them land like nukes.

However, one problem I encountered was if Wullff and Jan die, it's tedious and uninteresting. Dutch just becomes a double-tap y-wing and in my last game it was exhaustingly dull, though probably reasonably effective in most cases.

I decided to remove Trick Shot from him and upgrade his turret to Ion Cannon Turret to give him some control, assuming that's not a mistake (e.g. against a large-ship list). I'd also consider giving him Selfless so he can absorb some damage from the star players, though that does require him to fly in close formation and that may not be a great restriction to place on the list.

I could also try mixing up his strategy. He's not amazing at running away and reloading for another proton torp shot -- reload is red and y-wings are not fast -- but maybe it's better than just focusing on the double-tap. Proton Bombs wouldn't be a terrible idea if I can spare the points (Jan doesn't need Trick Shot and Engine Upgrade); that'd give him a lot more options for dealing with enemy movement, and make him pretty interesting. Something like this ?

Or maybe I should just suck it up and deal with the risk of having him in late game, and try to double-tap my way to victory or a better MOV. The one time this was miserable was against a vulture droid swarm where I couldn't land damage to save my life, even when I had a lock and focus. That might have been mainly dice luck and I shouldn't be too hasty to shift the list in response. I dunno.

Thoughts?

The question I have is how do you fly Dutch? Up close and in the fray to get good use out of the turret + VTG? or out at R2 or 3 to launch the torps?

If you have him up front with Wulffy, you can switch out your Proton Torpedo for an Advanced Proton Torpedo and gain 6 points to play with. That can give you an extra shield on Dutch or a bomb or a mine which may be more useful if he makes it into the end game.

Also, maybe consider running a different ship like possibly Miranda in place of Dutch.

Selfless

Selfless

SELFLESS

@Force Majeure Hmm... APTs are a good idea. I think I should give that variation a try, and spend the points maybe on a hull upgrade on wullff and jan.

@ficklegreendice Yea, I'm finding Selfless is a good idea. Wullff and Jan often need a bit of help when they start taking focus fire, and it helps to be able to regulate that damage, especially with Reinforce or an evade token.

Thank you! I'll iterate a couple more times and see how it goes.

I like Saw G crew. I ran him on Bethnic Two Tubes along with Leia. I know, surprised it isnt tac officer. Add a shield upgrade too. Saw basicly acting as a super focus. Ot of times I would TL and get a total of 4 hits/crits per shot at a loss of a shield. I think he gets overlooked alot.

Mainly a S&V player. But for hyperspace I run Rebels. Saw on 2 tubes along with deadman switch fills the S&V need.

So I flew a variation of Wullffwarro War Crimes (incorporating suggestions above) at Campaign Against Cancer and had fun. Switching to Advanced Proton Torps was a great plan, and Selfless worked well too. Unfortunately for the 2nd half of the day I was tired and made a lot of mistakes, and just ended up frustrated. I understand why people bring something simpler and more resilient like rebel beef to every tournament, especially long ones. Once I was tired, I kept making the same mistakes over and over and not learning, only really pulling myself together in the last half of the final match, where Wullff flew like a champ and almost pulled a win from near-certain defeat.

But when I wasn't being dumb, the fleet was very effective . It's fun to note that I did get off a single attack at the full 7 dice (by chance), but I didn't have a lock at the time and rolled few crits, so the damage was below even expected average. It was always the 4-, 5-, or 6-dice full-mod attacks that struck terror into my opponents.

I can recommend the fleet to others, as it's a lot of silly fun, and it can nuke a ship or two off the table before taking heavy losses if you're flying well and don't have bad luck. Just make sure to manage range carefully and get into the fight at the right time. If you frequently end up with Dutch at range 3 of their ships by half a centimeter on the approach like I did, and they roll max damage against you on the opening salvo and kill or cripple Dutch, you're going to have a bad time. I had a bad time in the last 3 of my 6 games, and it took lying in bed that night going over my mistakes to realize what I'd been doing wrong. Ain't that always the way?

I plan on flying the list a lot more because I've grown to really love it, though hopefully in much shorter tournaments. I know they appeal to a lot of people, but the all-day tournaments (6 - 8 rounds) leave me numb and unresponsive by the end. I can do at most 3 or 4 consecutive rounds before my mind turns to slush and I stop enjoying myself. I need to figure out ways to improve that.

Thanks everyone who gave suggestions! I have a list I like a lot. It's not meta-powerful, but it's delightful and at least viable on the table, which is exactly what I look for in a fleet.

16 hours ago, Wazat said:

it took lying in bed that night going over my mistakes to realize what I'd been doing wrong. Ain't that always the way?

Out of curiosity what conclusions did you come to?
It occurred to me that Dutch might get some use out of After Burners: Slow roll in, then jump forward+AB if you need to get up close and personal.

Dutch frequently ended up just a centimeter too far forward, and I needed to dial back my approach maneuver by 1 speed (sometimes more) and make the enemy come more to me. That way I'd be up close next round, where I want to be on that first shot, and I'd have less chance that Dutch would be the only one firing that round (and less chance he'd just curl up and die without getting to do anything). My eagerness to get into position to get that lock was frequently my undoing. Even when I wasn't doing that, I needed to be more squirrely.

Though on the final stretch of my last round, I finally sharpened up into being competent, and gave Captain Nym a real run for his money. Despite Wullff being heavily damaged, Nym couldn't get a shot on him because I kept blocking his movement, trying to arrange for a final shot without him shooting first. I predicted his movements really well with blocks, or rolling behind where he'd end up. I still didn't manage to kill him, but it got really close and I ended with a pretty decent amount of points. If only I'd been flying like that with the whole fleet, all day.

Do people still tilt when they see an auzituck on the table?

I might give this a try at game night this week, I used to love a bit of wookiee in v1

On 5/21/2019 at 6:26 AM, Wazat said:

So I flew a variation of Wullffwarro War Crimes

Just to add, I loved the gunship in 1e, and I love this ... just looking over it, I can't help but think that trick shot on Jan Ors plus Leia somewhere might be a good change to the list. With both Jan and Wulf having the stop, they could quite happily sit still with their 180 arcs.

I'll be honest, I'm close to taking this list to UK Nationals next weekend ... the only thing stopping me is the faction prize system ... I'd be competing with 50 rebel beef players!

@Dreadai I think you might actually get some cheers if you pulled out these wooden gunships!

I really miss my Wookiee Liberators...

Anyways, do you have any games in the days coming that you could try out the War Crimes list? If only as proof of concept.

I'm probably one of the few, but I want the Auzi to at least have a chance out there. A points drop or an adjustment to it's available upgrades would be welcome! Being a "gunship" you'd think it could take a cannon...

6 hours ago, Dreadai said:

Just to add, I loved the gunship in 1e, and I love this ... just looking over it, I can't help but think that trick shot on Jan Ors plus Leia somewhere might be a good change to the list. With both Jan and Wulf having the stop, they could quite happily sit still with their 180 arcs.

I'll be honest, I'm close to taking this list to UK Nationals next weekend ... the only thing stopping me is the faction prize system ... I'd be competing with 50 rebel beef players!

I'm still tweaking the list, trying to find something that lasts. The main thing it lacks is resiliency; a Rebel Beef list can have a really bad round and still be fine, but if I have a bad round it could be over. That's bad in a game where the dice swing fortunes so much. Statistics is very happy to provide me with long stretches of blanks against my opponent's paint. I can see why Rebel Beef is in vogue.

Last night I flew this variation a few times and liked it a bit better, but I think it's up to which opponents I'm facing. It just comes down to whether they target and insta-kill Wullff or target and insta-kill Dutch on that first engagement round. When I'm not getting insta-killed, the list does very well usually, but I struggle a bit against rebel beef fleets. They tend to have too much firepower aimed at me, and they can absorb a nuke in a way that, say, Empire Aces can't. Empire Aces can roll max defense and still die to the proton torpedo plus Wullff nuke (or just the nuke alone, sometimes), but Rebel Beef can roll blanks on defense, absorb the entire nuke, and not even feel it . Rebel Beef is a fleet without a brain -- no pain receptors, just rumble forward and trample all in your path! Okay I'm being a bit unfair, I just think it's a funny image.

In the end I'm a three-ship list with multiple pressure points that can be targeted by skilled or net-listing players, so it's best to fly this in casual games unless you're okay not taking home the prize. I've flown it for a while and when I do well, I do amazing ; but when I do poorly (by either dice luck or just bad approach) the list kinda crumples. And there's a lot to track compared to a rebel beef list, so the mental tax can wear you down over a tournament.

As an example, I have mixed results against the list with 2 named b-wings + Cassian (with Leia) + Wedge, which hits hard and is hard to kill, hard to outmaneuver, etc. I think killing Wedge first often works out okay, if he isn't squirrely enough to avoid arcs. Or taking Cassian off the board in one round if possible. Still hard, and in the mean time Dutch has to survive a lot of firepower (or sometimes they target Wullff first). Every round where I don't take a ship off the table is another 30% to my chance of a loss. I suspect that list is in trouble though when FFG (almost certainly) increases Leia's price in the next few weeks.

Things that can be reworked in the list:

- Jyn doesn't help all that much. She's great if you're caught at range 3 and you're rolling lots of dice, but otherwise an evade token is wasted on a one-dice ship IMO. I've started reinforcing with Wullff. Dutch is dead no matter what I do, and though Jan benefits a lot from an evade, more and more I find I'm locking to increase my damage output instead. I switched Jyn out for Leia, but didn't use her at all last night because the need for stops etc didn't come up.

- Veteran Turret Gunner. I find myself not getting many double-tap opportunities, so I liquidated this for a shield upgrade and an ion turret (ion didn't work all that well, so maybe I should return to pure damage). Still not sure if it was the right choice, but my mood lately has been to favor defense on Dutch since he melts so, so trivially.

- Proton Bombs. Consistently I'm finding Dutch is dead by the time he'd be able to use these. When he does use them, it's hard to keep my team out of the blast, and often I'm hurt by it more than the enemy is (they'll still have shields or tons of health left). And with no launch ability, that means they're usually points wasted.

I upgraded back to Proton Torpedoes instead, which lets Dutch unload at longer range. Still not sure if that's for the best though, because Dutch is often out-PS'd by the things he'd really like to give a torpedo. Adv. Proton and double-tap turret may be better after all.

I imagine Elusive on Jan could swap for Trick Shot; that's what I originally had on her. But if anything decides to shoot Jan, she's very close to death and I like the one-time mulligan provided by Elusive. Also I found I didn't have a lot of obstructed shots for Jan.

I thought about putting Elusive on Dutch in place of Selfless, but it turns out if I do that, foes are more likely to target and kill Wullff and he needs to live even more than Dutch does.

I hope Auzitucks get a decent boost soon. Maybe a points reduction, or some new upgrades that help them. Targeting Computer has potential -- Wullff often doesn't need his action except occasionally for defense, so if he could provide his own locks, that would free up Dutch to become some other ship. Not sure what would take that place though.

And I'm still extremely fond of my Triple Auzitucks list . Similar to this list, it's explicitly casual. Netlisters and the really skilled tournament players tend to rip it to pieces. But.... but I still love it. And Wullffwarro War Crimes is still wonderful despite its tournament performance. They both offer what I love in a list, even if that condemns me to casual games only.

If you want a more survivable Y-wing, may I recommend Norra she shoots earlier than Dutch and gets that added Evade result when she's up close. I understand you want to give Wullffwarro the lock, but is Saw 's modifier good enough? I think so.

I tweaked your list and made Dutch into Norra and gave Norra the VTG that I noticed you didn't have on Dutch. I also dropped down to Dorsal Turret. Torps were removed as well. You have 6 points to play with for an Engine Upgrade, crew or Shield Upgrade for Jan or maybe APT on Norra.

Also, if you haven't seen the Elusive/Chopper combo, here it is: you can pull a charge from Elusive to regen a shield and then re-charge Elusive with a red maneuver.

Wullffwarro (56)
Trick Shot (2)
Saw Gerrera (8)
Leia Organa (2)
Hull Upgrade (3)

Jan Ors (44)
Elusive (3)
Moldy Crow (18)

Norra Wexley (41)
Elusive (3)
Dorsal Turret (2)
“Chopper” (2)
Shield Upgrade (4)
Veteran Turret Gunner (6)
Total: 194

View in Yet Another Squad Builder 2.0

1 hour ago, Force Majeure said:

If you want a more survivable Y-wing, may I recommend Norra she shoots earlier than Dutch and gets that added Evade result when she's up close. I understand you want to give Wullffwarro the lock, but is Saw 's modifier good enough? I think so.

I tweaked your list and made Dutch into Norra and gave Norra the VTG that I noticed you didn't have on Dutch. I also dropped down to Dorsal Turret. Torps were removed as well. You have 6 points to play with for an Engine Upgrade, crew or Shield Upgrade for Jan or maybe APT on Norra.

Also, if you haven't seen the Elusive/Chopper combo, here it is: you can pull a charge from Elusive to regen a shield and then re-charge Elusive with a red maneuver.

Wullffwarro (56)
Trick Shot (2)
Saw Gerrera (8)
Leia Organa (2)
Hull Upgrade (3)

Jan Ors (44)
Elusive (3)
Moldy Crow (18)

Norra Wexley (41)
Elusive (3)
Dorsal Turret (2)
“Chopper” (2)
Shield Upgrade (4)
Veteran Turret Gunner (6)
Total: 194

View in Yet Another Squad Builder 2.0

Norra is indeed a whole lot more survivable. I've seen just how hard she is to kill... maybe impossible if you lack enough firepower in late game. I wonder if that means people will just focus on Wullff first though, for easy points. Even reinforcing, he goes down fast without Selfless shaving off some crits. I'll have to test it out to see what people do -- maybe they'll try to kill Norra first, fearing her in late game.

I like that Elusive/Chopper combo, btw. A bit action-heavy but that's fine, she'll occasionally be able to spare an action for a recharge, especially when she really needs to soak shots (like in late game).

I flew this last night for one game for funsies .. lost the game, but had a great time. Managed to get the 6 dice nuke off ... but it whiffed as no rerolls as the guy targetted Dutch first.

In any case, it was huge fun, and I will likely take it out again for a laugh

That's great!

Yea, the list isn't a game winner, but it's a delight to play. I'm glad you had fun!