I don't have any evidence or info, but my feeling is that the Jumpmaster will see a correction in the next points adjustment/ship re-release, be it a 1 or two point decrease to the chassis, title or both.

Quite frankly, it think the ship is fine as is. A 9 health 2 Agility large base ship that can hard 1 with crew & torp slots that can Barrel Roll for 46 points? Come on, that's not shabby at all. It's biggest flaw (in my eyes) is the link to red rotate turret. The red right hards are a challenge to work with, but not insurmountable (surprise your opponent when you do a hard right red with Contraband Cybernetics!)

Dash... and the whole YT-2400 needs to be reworked. When they start selling card packs, I hope they re-do this card. Having to get in the R1 doughnut in First Edition was a challenge, but felt fair for being able to hit so hard and ignore obstacles. If it fixes/makes the ship playable I wouldn't care if I had to buy updated cards to replace the ones from the conversion kit.

16 minutes ago, Force Majeure said:

Having to get in the R1 doughnut in First Edition was a challenge, but felt fair for being able to hit so hard and ignore obstacles.

The range 1 blind spot was a fair counter to the 360 degree arc. The change was made for second edition because it now requires an action to rotate the turret, and the turret can be arc dodged, which seems like a reasonable trade-off.

The reality is that we really don’t know how Dash will play in second edition, because the only list he’s been widely seen in relied on a ‘broken’ ability which should never have made the transition to second edition in the first place... and that was Roark, not Dash! Having stated the objective of removing upgrades that adjusted ‘pilot skill’, or initiative as it is now, that one somehow slipped through the net!

That broken gimmick build meant that the YT-2400 was denied the points reduction it should have had, considering that all other large-based ships saw a much more significant reduction that has resulted in some of them actually seeing more table time... it should have a points cost similar to that of the YT-1300, and hopefully will after the next points adjustment.

1 hour ago, Force Majeure said:

I don't have any evidence or info, but my feeling is that the Jumpmaster will see a correction in the next points adjustment/ship re-release, be it a 1 or two point decrease to the chassis, title or both.

Quite frankly, it think the ship is fine as is. A 9 health 2 Agility large base ship that can hard 1 with crew & torp slots that can Barrel Roll for 46 points? Come on, that's not shabby at all. It's biggest flaw (in my eyes) is the link to red rotate turret. The red right hards are a challenge to work with, but not insurmountable (surprise your opponent when you do a hard right red with Contraband Cybernetics!)

Dash... and the whole YT-2400 needs to be reworked. When they start selling card packs, I hope they re-do this card. Having to get in the R1 doughnut in First Edition was a challenge, but felt fair for being able to hit so hard and ignore obstacles. If it fixes/makes the ship playable I wouldn't care if I had to buy updated cards to replace the ones from the conversion kit.

I agree wholeheartedly on the JM5K it is OK - its just that stupid limitation on rotating the turret. How about a simple modification card - JM5k only - adds white rotate turret action - 4 points?

Absolutely not. Burn them. Burn them both.

Dengar especially. If I ever have to play against him again it will be too soon.

Of course. No pilot or chassis should have to suffer non-viability as a form of petty revenge. It's childish to hold a grudge based on a ruleset that's been replaced.

1 hour ago, DR4CO said:

Absolutely not. Burn them. Burn them both.

Dengar especially. If I ever have to play against him again it will be too soon.

I will agree to it if we nerf one of your only initiative 6 pilots, if i have less high initiative options, so should other factions.

Or swap Dengar’s initiative with another ship(initiative 6 Kimogila might actually get to use it’s ship ability)

If you put enough points into Dash right now, he can be good. At least now you have to properly pay for the level of BS you want him to do. The problem is that putting enough points into him to be good pretty much screws your ability to put something alongside him that's also good. Having played against him in 2e, I'm ok with his cost being 3/4 of a list by himself. It's still a 2Agi large ship with a 4Atk bowtie turret on a white rotate and two crew slots. That should be expensive, even before the "ignore map" ability.

8 hours ago, Skitch_ said:

I wonder how a Dash on a recharging 2-charge ability would fare. Seems like a more equitable pilot ability yet would keep the Dash flair from 1.0.

How often would you go through more than one rock in an activation? I would say something like two or three non-recurring charges would be better, forcing you to choose where and when you'll spend the charges.

I think he means spend two charges to activate, and regain on charge per turn, similar to some other abilities where reusing it is delayed that way.

Once every other turn to ignore an obstacle sounds fair. It's not often I see Dash use that ability every turn anyway.

Agree that Dash has a problematic ability, OK, so he can no longer get the redonkulous action economy of 1st edition, but his ability combined with Trick Shot alone makes for a potentially really powerful combo.

I wouldn't mind seeing Dengar back in the mix again. He's got almost the polar opposite problem to Dash, though - where Dash has a really powerful baseline, the JM5K chassis has really been battered hard.

Naively, I want everything to be good enough to play and have some degree of fun and success.

But, having not touched the YT-2400/Jumpmaster since 2.0, and having barely touched them in 1e, I don't feel qualified to offer a solution.

Dash is fine. He melts in two rounds to focused fire and there's no way he's dodging your arcs. He hits hard and he dies fast. 100% not worth the points right now and anyone who disagrees has never tried to make him work.

Again, you really can't classify his ability as NPE because it does not remove agency from the other player. It just changes up what that counterplay looks like.

I played a fair bit of Jumpmaster in 1e, but haven't seen them at all in 2e yet. Dash, however, is another story. I never really played Dash, but I genuinely may have faced him more times than anyone on the planet. Multiple games almost every week from a bit after his 1e release right up until 2e launch. I'm not an expert in playing him, but I may be an expert in playing against him.

It's a shame my absolute favourite crew card to deal with him is no longer in the game. Old Boba crew was the greatest thing in the world. I miss that card so much.

Why does everyone hate on Dash’s ability so much? There are at least 3 other cards or ships that give you the same effect for much cheaper and in some cases better. Collision detector, MG TIE and Grappling Struts all do something similar with two of those allowing you to shoot while on a rock which Dash can’t do.

There is a cost where Dash can be usable but not OP but right now he is far above that.

Collision Detector is charge based and vies for a system slot, MG TIE specifically just ignores asteroids (which are already out of favour so they rely on you bringing asteroids alone), and Grappling Struts mean you have to physically stop and take off in a very predictable manner the following turn if you want to keep moving.

Meanwhile Dash just ignores all obstacles for his entire movement every turn while in a large base ship which can barrell roll and has a 4-dice bowtie turret.

There's a pretty stark difference between Dash and a MG TIE or a Vulture Droid with struts.

Also, I don't hate Dash's ability, but that list is a really poor comparison. If anything it demonstrates how strong Dash's ability is. Every one of those has a series of drawbacks or restrictions. Dash just goes where he wants, sits behind an obstacle, and let's the Trick Shot/Outrider combo do his work for him.

7 minutes ago, NakedDex said:

Grappling Struts mean you have to physically stop and take off in a very predictable manner the following turn if you want to keep moving.

🤨 Not exactly. You can barrel roll off the same turn you land on the Debris or Asteroid and have the Vulture's (and likely Hyena's) full maneuver set available (unless you did the red linked after the barrel roll, normal stress limitations apply then). The struts opening trigger before the checks for being on the obstacle. Still, I agree with your point that in comparison Dash's ability is more potent.

26 minutes ago, Caduceus01 said:

Why does everyone hate on Dash’s ability so much? There are at least 3 other cards or ships that give you the same effect for much cheaper and in some cases better. Collision detector, MG TIE and Grappling Struts all do something similar with two of those allowing you to shoot while on a rock which Dash can’t do.

There is a cost where Dash can be usable but not OP but right now he is far above that.

Collision Detector is charge based. Mining TIEs are... stuck being TIEs, Grappling Vultures are stuck being Vultures (and can't fly over obstacles, only land on them).

Lots of abilities are fair on flimsy front arc ships that would be busted on a tanky 4 dice bowtie ship.

33 minutes ago, Caduceus01 said:

Why does everyone hate on Dash’s ability so much? There are at least 3 other cards or ships that give you the same effect for much cheaper and in some cases better. Collision detector, MG TIE and Grappling Struts all do something similar with two of those allowing you to shoot while on a rock which Dash can’t do.

There is a cost where Dash can be usable but not OP but right now he is far above that.

Mining Guild Ties only ignore the move, and only on asteroids (so full effect of clouds and debris), they cannot shoot from the rock. Neither are they high ini, or turrets.

21 minutes ago, NakedDex said:

Collision Detector is charge based and vies for a system slot,

Which many ships do not even have.

18 minutes ago, Hiemfire said:

🤨 Not exactly. You can barrel roll off the same turn you land on the Debris or Asteroid and have the Vulture's (and likely Hyena's) full maneuver set available (unless you did the red linked after the barrel roll, normal stress limitations apply then). The struts opening trigger before the checks for being on the obstacle. Still, I agree with your point that in comparison Dash's ability is more potent.

That's fair, I forgot about that. Still costs them the action to do though, and it's not a case that they can fly straight on through like Dash anyway.

1 hour ago, svelok said:

Lots of abilities are fair on flimsy front arc ships that would be busted on a tanky 4 dice bowtie ship.

Tanky 2.0 Dash is not. 10 health and 2 agility makes him a little tougher than a Lambda, but nearer 3x the cost. This isn’t Han with boost and passive rerolls. If he has focus, he doesn’t have rotate OR reposition. He’s extremely predictable and quite fragile for his cost

I played him in a game last night with Lone Wolf/Kanan/Outrider. It's still pretty good, but not overly so. I also think that you want to run him with gas clouds. Sure, it gives a free evade to your enemy, but it gives you the free evade too. Plus, with Outrider, they aren't getting the obstruction die. I think Trickshot on him is not a good idea, because it feels like you're relying too much on the obstruction. It makes you slightly too predictable.

Kanan + Outrider makes you incredibly unpredictable, because you can pretty much clear stress with any maneuver you want. Plus the force is really nice on turns where you had to barrel roll.

The trick is to have someone else that can take the aggro off of Dash. I flew him with Elusive Corran with FCS. It ended up working pretty well.

I think he's fine for casual night, and I think that he is actually really close to being competitive without being broken.

Dash is actually very difficult to fly though. Being able to ignore obstacles helps a lot, but quite literally one wrong move can give your opponent 65 points in the blink of an eye.

40 minutes ago, SavouryRain said:

Dash is actually very difficult to fly though. Being able to ignore obstacles helps a lot, but quite literally one wrong move can give your opponent 65 points in the blink of an eye.

See I think this is what’s important. It’s okay for him to be viable and I don’t think there’s anything broken about him. Of all the things you could ignore (maneuvers, arcs, rolls, etc.) I feel like rocks would be least problematic. But not only that, he doesn’t ignore rocks. With the title, he needs to be hitting them at every opportunity and that leaves him very predictable. He still can’t land on them or he loses his shot, which is a very big deal for a 1-ship list.

He’s quite predictable and can’t stand up to focus fire, and there’s nothing in his ability that negates counterplay.

You can’t just call something broken because you don’t like it.

Let me vote for Soontir Fel and no at the same time, coward!

Ideally I'd like all ships to be good, or at least close enough to good to see play regularly.

If we're making ships underpowered forever because they were good once, are we also going the other way? The Scyk has never seen much success in either edition, despite multiple attempts at fixing it. I think they deserve a four-dice primary weapon to make up for it, the poor things. 😉

On 5/11/2019 at 2:00 PM, DakkaDakka12 said:

I will agree to it if we nerf one of your only initiative 6 pilots, if i have less high initiative options, so should other factions.

Or swap Dengar’s initiative with another ship(initiative 6 Kimogila might actually get to use it’s ship ability)

You know what? I am perfectly fine with doing both of these, if it means we can leave Dengar and his stupid pilot ability in the trash heap. Dash is bad, but playing against him is so much more tolerable than playing against Dengar. Dash just makes it easy for his owner to play the game; he doesn't actively punish you for trying to play.

To provide some context for this contempt, I am fairly proud of the fact that I’ve never quit an event in rage or frustration, for any system, in my life. Dengar provided me with a game that was so outrageously negative that the only reason I can still make that claim about never quitting an event, is this game was the final round of that tournament. As it was he “only” made me actively avoid playing X-wing for the only time in five years.

So yes, I have a very, very special loathing for Dengar. I don't have any real problems with the rest of the Jumpmaster pilots, and would be completely fine with them being playable again. Provided that doesn't entail recreating Wolfpack or Parattani, of course.

But Dengar? **** that guy.