1 hour ago, DR4CO said:

You know what? I am perfectly fine with doing both of these, if it means we can leave Dengar and his stupid pilot ability in the trash heap. Dash is bad, but playing against him so much more tolerable than playing against Dengar. Dash just makes it easy for his owner to play the game; he doesn't actively punish you for trying to play.

To provide some context for this contempt, I am fairly proud of the fact I’ve never quit an event in rage or frustration, for any system, in my life. Dengar provided me with a game that was so outrageously negative that the only reason I can still make that claim about never quitting an event, is this game was the final round of that tournament. As it was he “only” made me actively avoid playing X-wing for the only time in five years.

So yes, I have a very, very special loathing for Dengar. I don't have any real problems with the rest of the Jumpmaster pilots, and would be completely fine with them being playable again. Provided that doesn't entail recreating Wolfpack or Parattani, of course.

But Dengar? **** that guy.

Getting outside his arc now is...

I don’t know, really easy...

Funny the argument of no I hate it reminds me of Armor Lock back on Halo Reach and now that it is gone the Halo games were better right?

Any mechanic is good if put in correctly, but nerfherders just want to complain because of meta reasoning. I wish they would just shut up. So I would like them to be viable but too many people want them to be PUNISHED for no other reason other than they didn't like the experience.

6 hours ago, ClassicalMoser said:

Getting outside his arc now is...

I don’t know, really easy...

I still get it that people really dislike design elements which punish you hard for trying to fulfill the only objective in existence right now - damaging the opponent to get points.

It does not matter if it is Dengar, Quickdraw or Sloane, or old 1st ed Rebel Captive or Painbot - all feel cheesy.

Now, if there were other objectives....

Maybe new Epic is build on hope

10 hours ago, DR4CO said:

You know what? I am perfectly fine with doing both of these, if it means we can leave Dengar and his stupid pilot ability in the trash heap. Dash is bad, but playing against him is so much more tolerable than playing against Dengar. Dash just makes it easy for his owner to play the game; he doesn't actively punish you for trying to play.

To provide some context for this contempt, I am fairly proud of the fact that I’ve never quit an event in rage or frustration, for any system, in my life. Dengar provided me with a game that was so outrageously negative that the only reason I can still make that claim about never quitting an event, is this game was the final round of that tournament. As it was he “only” made me actively avoid playing X-wing for the only time in five years.

So yes, I have a very, very special loathing for Dengar. I don't have any real problems with the rest of the Jumpmaster pilots, and would be completely fine with them being playable again. Provided that doesn't entail recreating Wolfpack or Parattani, of course.

But Dengar? **** that guy.

so you have no interest in making him playable...

Isn't that just bad game design to have a part of the game that is useless in 100% of situations? not even niche.

I hated Whisper in 1.0 as I never enjoyed using bombs, despite this seeing how she changed has made her less frustrating to fly against.

10 hours ago, Managarmr said:

I still get it that people really dislike design elements which punish you hard for trying to fulfill the only objective in existence right now - damaging the opponent to get points.

It does not matter if it is Dengar, Quickdraw or Sloane, or old 1st ed Rebel Captive or Painbot - all feel cheesy.

Now, if there were other objectives....

Maybe new Epic is build on hope

Spot on - Dengar is not the only offender in this category. Add in new Palpatine as well.

17 hours ago, Managarmr said:

I still get it that people really dislike design elements which punish you hard for trying to fulfill the only objective in existence right now - damaging the opponent to get points.

It does not matter if it is Dengar, Quickdraw or Sloane, or old 1st ed Rebel Captive or Painbot - all feel cheesy.

Now, if there were other objectives....

Maybe new Epic is build on hope

Add in Wulfwarro, Saw, Magva, Hate, Maul, R2, etc. There are lots of abilities that trigger off of taking damage, so Dengar isn't exactly an outlier in that regard. Plus his ability is hard-capped at once per round and will almost always be 3 modless dice.

It has been said before but I want ALL ships to be viable. What is the point in having a ship if it cannot be used due being rubbish or too expensive? May as well not have it in the game...

On 5/13/2019 at 7:47 AM, william1134 said:

It has been said before but I want ALL ships to be viable. What is the point in having a ship if it cannot be used due being rubbish or too expensive? May as well not have it in the game...

Absolutely agree... I personally feel there and numerous current 2.0 combos that are worse than Dengar 1.0. I don’t get the point of FFG releasing an I6 pilot thats not even playable. MJGA... Make JumpMaster Great Again.

9 hours ago, MUrunner20 said:

Absolutely agree... I personally feel there and numerous current 2.0 combos that are worse than Dengar 1.0. I don’t get the point of FFG releasing an I6 pilot thats not even playable. MJGA... Make JumpMaster Great Again.

Better than Dengar 1.0?! You’re kidding, right?

I mean I never played against him before he was nerfed the 3rd time, but just looking at his cards, how could ANYTHING in 2.0 claim to be nearly as strong or close to as cheap?

I 100% agree that 2.0 Dengar is trash until fixed, but I don’t think we want to see him anywhere close to where he was in terms of power level or OP ubiquity.

2 hours ago, ClassicalMoser said:

I 100% agree that 2.0 Dengar is trash until fixed, but I don’t think we want to see him anywhere close to where he was in terms of power level or OP ubiquity.

Nobody wants to see broken combos that ruin the game. The framework of 2.0 allows FFG to quickly right the ship when they mess it up. Nobody is saying they want Dengar/JM5K to dominate the meta like he/they did in 1.0. We just want all ships, including Dengar/JM5K and Dash, to be viable options.

So I've been running Dengar/Guri in several matches against 5 Cartel Marauders in Flycasual, and I keep feeling like I could just beat them if I played a little better. Sometimes I lose Guri due to doing something stupid and Dengar actually goes pretty far. The dial/maneuverability isn't nearly as bad as people are making it out to be; the only major issue I have is that you have to treat it as basically an arc-locked ship, at least with the title.

The loadout I was running was Dengar, Punishing One, R3, Proton Torpedoes, Contraband Cybernetics, and either Expert Handling (very good on him) or Lone Wolf.

Three simple steps to fix the Jumpaster for good:

1. Hard errata to title: Grants front arc of 3

2. Price reduction across the board; it's costed like a 3-primary turret. It should be priced like a beefier Y-Wing

3. Cheaper Contraband Cybernetics. Excellent for making the Jumpmaster viable when timed right, but 5 points is an absolute joke.

I would also venture to guess that a gunner slot is coming. That would probably help a lot, especially if taken without the title. I don't think it would be entirely necessary, but every little bit helps.

Edit: I just did it! Beat 5 cartel marauders with a 91 point Dengar. Only additions were Fearless Old T and Talonbane Cobra. Tiny MoV with just 2 hull each on Dengar and Old T at the end, but at least it's something?

Yeah, why wouldn't you want all ships to be good? Gives more play opportunities and challenges.

9 hours ago, ClassicalMoser said:

Better than Dengar 1.0?! You’re kidding, right?

I mean I never played against him before he was nerfed the 3rd time, but just looking at his cards, how could ANYTHING in 2.0 claim to be nearly as strong or close to as cheap?

I 100% agree that 2.0 Dengar is trash until fixed, but I don’t think we want to see him anywhere close to where he was in terms of power level or OP ubiquity.

Did I say anything about wanting it to be exactly like 1.0? Nope, I did not. Do I want a ship in the only faction I plan actually be viable and see table time? Yes, yes I do. For a game designer to hold such a grudge against a ship THEY designed is beyond stupid and makes no sense. I’ll admit that my wording could have been better when I said, “...numerous combos worse...”. I bought into the Scum faction after the first two nerfs and never exploited the original issues but Dengar was absolutely beatable. A fully loaded Dengar cost 61pts back in 1.0 which is roughly 122 now in 2.0 and would get destroyed by Quad Phantoms (and explain to me how these are not worse???). What about Inert Han... how is that not equally as bad? I just want an I6 pilot to actually have the ability to fly and act like one. Scum faction as a whole is struggling lately some some of this is venting frustration so revamping the JumpMaster would be a step in the right direction IMO.

3 hours ago, Arc170Chris said:

Yeah, why wouldn't you want all ships to be good? Gives more play opportunities and challenges.

This is simple. Some things are just so annoying to play against, or bend the rules in a way that avoids counterplay to a reasonable degree (Even though Dash 1.0 had R1 donut, it was rare to make it matter).

Poor designs should get changed into something more enjoyable. Its harder for Xwing, but that's likely the way good design should go.

Being good doesn't mean being off balance like it was in 1.0

btw... 1.0, I fly Nora and 4 Zs with missles and tracers, would always take Dash out in one turn... lol... again, unbalanced! lol

7 hours ago, MUrunner20 said:

A fully loaded Dengar cost 61pts back in 1.0 which is roughly 122 now in 2.0 and would get destroyed by Quad Phantoms (and explain to me how these are not worse???). What about Inert Han... how is that not equally as bad? I just want an I6 pilot to actually have the ability to fly and act like one. Scum faction as a whole is struggling lately some some of this is venting frustration so revamping the JumpMaster would be a step in the right direction IMO.

That fully loaded Dengar got to roll into combat at PS9 and throw a Focus + Lock + Guidance Chips torpedo at you, then got to sit back and threaten you with another shot from his Focused primary if you dared actually return fire (otherwise known as playing X-wing), and he got all of these things by simply performing a maneuver, regardless of whether he bumped or hit an asteroid, so he was free to sit back on a defensive Focus or use his large-base barrel roll or boost to dodge arcs without sacrificing... well, anything, really. And if he didn't get to use his ability somehow, he still got to throw a fully-modified 3-dice 360-degree turret at you.

Phantoms and Han are bad -- really bad -- but they would all roll over and die before the monster that was First Edition Dengar. Phantoms in particular would just get mauled; only a couple would be getting shots each turn, either because Dengar dodged arc with a boost/roll or because he decided to bump one because who cares when you get everything you want just by revealing a green move, right? There's a very real chance they'd lose a ship a turn without Dengar's wingman getting involved. Han might stand a chance as he can outbid and try to stay out of the front arc, but even if he did he'd still be hard pressed to outrace Expertise + K4.

For me a big part of what made the yt-2400 so good in v1 was the dancing! Move boost and barrel roll anywhere and then shoot with 360 was amazing. In V2 you can move and barrel roll in red... After that you quite often may find yourself without a shot with the turret.

The new ship may look similar but really plays differently to v1 and has nowhere near the flexibility.

Try to dance? = Get only a weak unmodded shot if one at all

Hull down? = Yes focus and 4 dice is nice BUT you need to get them in the R2 spot as otherwise they get range bonus or you get the R1 nerf.. tough!