Hello everybody, I have a question for you.

I usually don't look at the meta, but I use meta-wing for inspiration, to discover ( long after the clever ones) good combos and dirty tricks. I was recently amazed to discover great two-ships list like the Hot Rod of Dalli ( I was less amazed by Han+Luke+that's my parking spot but that is not the topic). Then I try to fill a YT2400 in a two ship list...

Initially, I thought this ship was great. Tried it a few time on FlyCasual (LEEBO+wild space fringer, and I know it is not like a real game at all), sound's totally OK, not SUPER competitive, but nothing like the jumpaster.

Then, with the come back of metawing, I was like, "Hey, lets get inspired"... This ship seems to not appear once. Not once! I was a wondering how it was possible that I was that wrong about it's competitive capacity.

I know it is expensive, very, but it can deal a lot of red dice too! I want it to work mostly because I think it is unique and thematic, so that is why am "blind", but that much? I must have missed something that make it almost unplayable.

Please, explain me, I doesn't care if it's hurt, but I need to know why is the YT2400 worst that I think?

( I was supposed to frighten my friends with:

Dash Rendar (98)
Trick Shot (2)
Saw Gerrera (8)
Outrider (14)
Rigged Cargo Chute (4)
Ship total: 126 Half Points: 63 Threshold: 5
Jan Ors (44)
Juke (5)
Proton Bombs (5)
Lando Calrissian (2)
Moldy Crow (18)
Ship total: 74 Half Points: 37 Threshold: 3
Total: 200

View in Yet Another Squad Builder 2.0: https://raithos.github.io/?f=Rebel Alliance&d=v6!s=200!39:133,,,58,,157,96:;46:123,69,44,,,156:&sn=Unnamed Squadron&obs=

but I probably won't )

It was showing up with Dash/Raork with a busted Han gunner combo that got nerfed in a rules reference. The 2400 is in a tricky place on the power curve. Its naked chassis is super powerful having 4 red dice protected by 10 health and 2 green dice can be a monster if pointed too cheaply.

The main problem is that it is a little too expensive, but I'm not sure by how much. Also, in the current meta, Rebel Beef or 4 Phantoms can really eat it up.

The second problem is that the community, myself included, is probably too scared to try it at a major tournament.

Latest news ( and sorry I didn't see that, JUST few hours ago:

The YT2400 is entering metawing, ship 61/64, just up the jumpmaster.

9 minutes ago, SavouryRain said:

Also, in the current meta, Rebel Beef or 4 Phantoms can really eat it up. 

Hum, this is for sure a good point. still 61 / 64...

The 2400 has a weird (I would argue, bad) design... the line between good and broken is pretty thin.

Dash Rendar (98)
Trick Shot (2)
Ship total: 100

Jake Farrell (36)
Ship total: 36

Wedge Antilles (52)
Proton Torpedoes (12)
Servomotor S-Foils (0)
Ship total: 64

Total: 200

This seems close to playable?

Have to agree the design in bad, but that fault basically rests solely on Dash's ever-busted ability (though leebo too was so good they had to forbid c3po)

I'd be super interested in trying out a Bistan yt2400 railgun, but prohibitive pricing ain't about to let that happen

31 minutes ago, svelok said:

The 24  00 has a weird (I would argue, bad) design... the line between good and broken is pretty thin.

Dash Rendar (98)
Trick Shot (2) 
Ship total: 100

Jake Farrell  (36)
Ship total: 36

Wedge Antilles (52)
Proton Torpedoes (12)
Servomotor S-Foils (0)
Ship total: 64

Total: 200

This seems close to playable?

Ok Ok , not playable, but there is no synergy in this list. I get your point, but where imps lacks of synergy, rebels seems to have lots of possibilities! Saw G on a high HPship that may shot twice 4dice with the right gunner seems better than the sum of the points on other ships.

8 minutes ago, ficklegreendice said:

Have to agree the design in bad

Have to agree it is bad BUT... This ship is supposed to be agile AND powerful, it's dial is almost the BEST you can have, at least for a close quarter encounter. you will want to close, but need to disengage to be efficient. I really love this design.

But your points are so valids

43 minutes ago, ficklegreendice said:

Have to agree the design in bad, but that fault basically rests solely on Dash's ever-busted ability (though leebo too was so good they had to forbid c3po)

I'd be super interested in trying out a Bistan yt2400 railgun, but prohibitive pricing ain't about to let that happen

• 4 dice bowtie turret !!! (VCX/Upsilon are over here needing to catch things in front arcs...)
• 10 hp, 2 agi !!!
• a full dial with all white hard turns on a large base !!! (laughing at the VCX/Upsilon needing to turn at speed 2)
• I5 pilot that ignores obstacles !!!
• title that doubles down on flying over obstacles !!!

The 2400 is in "what on earth" territory. It's like the opposite of the Jumpmaster - where one or a combination of nerfs would've left it playable, instead it got all of them - one or a combination of traits would've made the 2400 unique, but instead it just has everything possible going for it.

That in turn means it has to be so expensive that it can't carry its own weight without being insanely hyper-efficient - and if it ever gets to that point, it'll be a Dash/Roark or Jake/Han situation again. Two ship lists are Agency Bandits, and Dash splits the game in two if he's cheap enough to fit into real 3-ship lists.

12 minutes ago, svelok said:

• 4 dice bowtie turret !!! (VCX/Upsilon are over here needing to catch things in front arcs...)
• 10 hp, 2 agi !!!
• a full dial with all white hard turns on a large base !!! (laughing at the VCX/Upsilon needing to turn at speed 2)
• I5 pilot that ignores obstacles !!!
• title that doubles down on flying over obstacles !!!

The 2400 is in "what on earth" territory. It's like the opposite of the Jumpmaster - where one or a combination of nerfs would've left it playable, instead it got all of them - one or a combination of traits would've made the 2400 unique, but instead it just has everything possible going for it.

Well I'm not sure. Sensor Blindspot is a very real drawback. You have to be super good at arc and range control in order to get those 4 dice.

I mean, while Hera can do a 5/4 double-tap with ion at range one, (and fcs or Baze for mods on both), Dash either has to catch someone in both arcs or else pay through the nose for Bistan/PerCop to get two shots at different targets with only 3-4 dice and maybe a defensive bonus...

Trick shot gets you extra I guess. The weird thing about Outrider Dash is that it doesn't really make your flying not matter. It basically makes you explicitly have to fly over obstacles to keep going. If you miss your Trick shot or someone lands in your blind spot, they'll be getting a MUCH better deal out of the exchange than you will. The bow tie isn't that hard to dodge and it's definitely not like you'll have the actions to turn it or the points for Agile gunner...

I think there's room for him to be quite expensive but still playable, or rather affordable but not busted. I think something like:

Dash - 93

Leebo - 89 (and give him his stupid crew slot back)

Outrider - 11

So you're paying 106 for Dash/Trick/Title before upgrades. Want Bistan/PerCop? Total's up to 130, leaving only 70 for Wingman/bid.

Still getting dangerously close to Jake Brake Han prices, but definitely not as gross as that build. You could fit Wedge with him, but you'll be fighting a losing battle against either swarms OR aces due to lack of focused fire. I just can't see a case that this is NPE because everything he has going for him also offers counterplay, albeit counterintuitive (as Dash is counterintuitive to fly). Don't like the 4-dice attack? Close to R1 and blast him away. Don't like his trick shot? Skip around the asteroids. Don't want him to have two modded shots? Dodge his arc to make him rotate instead of focus. Dislike his stress-relief? Pack your asteroids tight in your own corner and stay away from them.

Plus the best range to be at from Dash is range zero. Block him up and he dies very very fast. 2 agility is okay but doesn't hold up to focused fire, especially without defensive focus, and that 10hp is pretty small without regen or serious arc-dodging. It hits like a hammer but dies quickly when outflown.

I think I could live with it that way.

1 hour ago, ClassicalMoser said:

Well  I'm not sure. Sensor Blindspot is a very real drawbac  k  .  

Because 3 red dice is such a drawback.

It's also not trivial to get to range 1 of a large base ship with sideways arcs that is actively trying to avoid letting you be at range 1 and ignores obstacles.

33 minutes ago, svelok said:

It's also not trivial to get to range 1 of a large base ship with sideways arcs that is actively trying to avoid letting you be at range 1 and ignores obstacles.

It’s not difficult to get outside of arc OR range 1 of a ship with only one arc that has to either rotate or barrel roll in order to change where that arc lands, and doing either of which means getting zero mods for the turn.

1 hour ago, Nyxen said:

Because 3 red dice is such a drawback.

For 130 points, and with no mods? I’ll go on the record for saying ABSOLUTELY.

5 hours ago, ficklegreendice said:

Have to agree the design in bad, but that fault basically rests solely on Dash's ever-busted ability (though leebo too was so good they had to forbid c3po)

I'd be super interested in trying out a Bistan yt2400 railgun, but prohibitive pricing ain't about to let that happen

I faced that list last weekend. It is certainly interesting in terms of having a very neat attack trick, but the fact that it costs so much that you can just hard-focus it down and not be especially worried about the wingman is it's rather glaring Achilles heel. I peppered it down with just a trio of Inquisitors (though I'll grant one bit the bullet on a Bistan second shot of four nat hits vs three blanks).

What became hugely evident after playing it was that any high initiative token stripping, or anyone reliably putting out a jam action, essentially ties a lead weight to it. It lives or dies on those two focus tokens.

4 hours ago, NakedDex said:

It lives  or dies on those two focus tokens.  

I tried to solve that with saw gerera crew. So I still can use my action to turn my arc a get mods

I'm not a fan of Saw on Dash. When a ship is taking 2/3 to 3/4 of your list, an ability that causes self damage is a reallllllly big risk. Especially when you're relying on unmodified dice for defence in return.

PerCo, Lone Wolf Dash was pretty good for us before the points change. Now SuperTorp Luke no longer fits, there's not much wiggle room for an effective not-dash component that will buy him space without getting instarekt.

The same math which shows that Ruthless is really bad to use with most Imperial ships almost surely means that Saw is really bad to use for almost any Rebel ship. Even a Kashyyyk Defender is spending at least 6.75 points per health lost to Saw. Any YT-2400 with Saw gives up at least 9.4 points per health when used.

This line from @DoubleDown11 really lands: "Zero point Ruthless would definitely result in a lot of very frustrated Imperial  players losing games and not quite understanding  why  ." Feels like Saw is going to be pretty similar in net effect on games.

//

The YT-2400 build I came up with a while ago--and might might never get around to playing--is this:

• Leebo (no upgrades) 88
• Fenn Rau (Swarm Tactics) 55
• Dutch Vander (Swarm Tactics, Proton Torpedo) 52 - could also drop Proton Torpedoes for VTG/Ion, but Proton seems like a better fit for this build

It's kind of similar to a Wedge/Fenn/Dutch/[I don't recall] list I heard about before, where the point is for Fenn to coordinate a Lock to Dutch at Init 6, who'll share it with Leebo. Just a massive Init 6 nuke to open things up. After, Leebo can tilt sideways, and rotate the battle field with 4-dice shots and a permanent calculate. Seems like that'd be annoying to deal with, as follow-up to a big nuke.

21 hours ago, Nyxen said:

Because 3 red dice is such a drawback.

Compared to 5?

2 hours ago, ficklegreendice said:

Compared to 5?

When you get 4 at 2-3 and get to broadside the entire game? Absolutely.

4 minutes ago, Nyxen said:

When you get 4 at 2-3 and get to broadside the entire game? Absolutely.

that's not the context
the context is you get 4 at range 2-3 and get to broadside the entire game AND 5 dice at range 1, if you had no ship ability

It IS a weakness, it just isn't debilitating (contrast jm5k dial). You pair it with its great cost to give the opponent another "out" against it, especially for those ships that are too slow to dodge those wide broad-sides

When your 80+ ship is rolling less dice than a range 1 x-wing, it's a weakness

1 minute ago, ficklegreendice said:

that's not the context
the context is you get 4 at range 2-3 and get to broadside the entire game AND 5 dice at range 1

It IS a weakness, it just isn't debilitating. You pair it with its great cost to give the opponent another "out" against it, especially for those ships that are too slow to dodge those wide broad-sides

When your 80+ ship is rolling less dice than a range 1 x-wing, it's a weakness

What I mean by that is while 5 dice at r1 would be terrifying, 3 is not enough of a drawback as a reward for dodging the huge area that large base 2-3 when the ship you're hunting doesn't have to fly at you to shoot you. Imo it should be 2 dice.

On 5/10/2019 at 6:25 PM, player2422845 said:

Then I try to fill a YT2400 in a two ship list...

I think this...

22 hours ago, ClassicalMoser said:

F or 130 points, and with no mods? I’ll go on the record for saying ABSOLUTELY.

....and this might be where people are going wrong with Dash nowadays.

Unless you really know what you're doing, two ship lists are asking for trouble in 2nd Edition. And throwing that many points on Dash seems like a mistake. This isn't first edition; Dash doesn't have the crutches of PtL and Kanan for uber action economy or a crazy wingman like Miranda to keep him upright any more. Throwing a ton of points into him isn't going to pay off the way it used to.

K.I.S,S. You don't really need to put anything more than Trick Shot on Dash. Save the rest of the points for a couple of extra bodies on the board to share the workload.

26 minutes ago, FTS Gecko said:

I think this...

....and this might be where people are going wrong with Dash nowadays.

Unless you really know what you're doing, two ship lists are asking for trouble in 2nd Edition. And throwing that many points on Dash seems like a mistake. This isn't first edition; Dash doesn't have the crutches of PtL and Kanan for uber action economy or a crazy wingman like Miranda to keep him upright any more. Throwing a ton of points into him isn't going to pay off the way it used to.

K.I.S,S. You don't really need to put anything more than Trick Shot on Dash. Save the rest of the points for a couple of extra bodies on the board to share the workload.

I.E. :

(Outrider optional, though can be beneficial. Tossing off Tractor, Jam, Ion Stress and Strain tokens has a fair bit of use in addition to the bonus dice removal.)

I still remember the horrors of Kanan dash...but given this is second Ed and you'll to do stressful things (like brolling or kturning) more often, maybe it's an idea?

Two points less than outrider, no need to overlap stuff; forcus

1 hour ago, Nyxen said:

What I mean by that is while 5 dice at r1 would be terrifying, 3 is not enough of a drawback as a reward for dodging the huge area that large base 2-3 when the ship you're hunting doesn't have to fly at you to shoot you. Imo it should be 2 dice.

Or to put it another way: does it count as a "weakness" when, in the worst scenario, your weapon is merely on par with other ships instead of clearly stronger? I guess it is a bit inefficient since the ship costs so much...

For comparison, imagine if Jumpmasters had an upgrade that read "You may ignore the target lock requirement on torpedoes. While making an attack with torpedoes, you may treat them as a turret attack. Before you engage, recharge all charges on your torpedoes". Everyone would be horrified. Yet that's pretty close to what the YT-2400 has - 4-dice attacks out the turret that don't need a target lock or ammunition, and 3 dice if you're too close for torps. It's also got that large-base barrel roll, and a better dial than the 2.0 Jumpmaster IMO.

I don't see a lot of YT-2400s being flown, so perhaps the price could come down a bit. But I can see why FFG might be wary of making it too cheap.