Here's a likely terrible idea of a list which has come about in my mind after realising that Inquisitor+Supernatural can lead to some very interesting flying...

TIE/D Defender - •Colonel Vessery - 93
•Colonel Vessery - Contemplative Commander (86)
Juke (5)
Fire-Control System (2)

TIE Advanced v1 - Inquisitor - 53
Inquisitor - (38)
Fire-Control System (2)
Cluster Missiles (5)
Supernatural Reflexes (8)

TIE Advanced v1 - Inquisitor - 53
Inquisitor - (38)
Fire-Control System (2)
Cluster Missiles (5)
Supernatural Reflexes (8)

Total: 199/200

View in the X-Wing Squad Builder

The approach is fairly simple, the Inquisitors use Supernatural to perform their boost or barrel roll, linking into the red Focus. They then execute a blue move (likely a 1-hard turn), clearing the stress and allowing them to perform a lock or another action as appropriate. Vessery can then capitalise on their locks to obtain one of his own, ideally leading to him being double-modded on the attack.

As I say, likely a terrible idea, but could be fun to put on the board.

SNR for only 8 points!?!

1 minute ago, pakirby said:

SNR for only 8 points!?!

The cost scales with the pilot skill. I'd argue it isn't worth it on a low PS pilot to swap their only force charge for a pre-position move, but the TIE v1 can link those moves into a red Focus, and has a blue speed one turn...

I don't think it's a terrible idea... And I do really, really like it.

The problem will be that it's essentially an ace list that will be out aced by almost all other ace lists. But it's got some tankiness, so I don't know.

I've pondered a similar thing but without the lock action bonuses. Rex obviously fits and the Inquisitors can also easily be focus + evade in a turn, making it a very tanky trio. Main reason I've not tried it (apart from only having 1 TAP), is damage output. Vessery and the locks trade Rex's Init for a bit more output, so maybe a good option. But also, could possibly fit Prockets on the Inqs with Rex....*

It should certainly be fun though.

*Edit. Like so . Maybe .

(38) Inquisitor [TIE Advanced v1] (7) Proton Rockets (8) Supernatural Reflexes. Points: 53

(38) Inquisitor [TIE Advanced v1] (7) Proton Rockets (8) Supernatural Reflexes. Points: 53

(82) Rexler Brath [TIE/D Defender] (2) Predator (10) Advanced Sensors Points: 94

Total points: 200

A bid would be handy but eh.

11 minutes ago, Cuz05 said:

I don't think it's a terrible idea... And I do really, really like it.

The problem will be that it's essentially an ace list that will be out aced by almost all other ace lists. But it's got some tankiness, so I don't know.

I've pondered a similar thing but without the lock action bonuses. Rex obviously fits and the Inquisitors can also easily be focus + evade in a turn, making it a very tanky trio. Main reason I've not tried it (apart from only having 1 TAP), is damage output. Vessery and the locks trade Rex's Init for a bit more output, so maybe a good option. But also, could possibly fit Prockets on the Inqs with Rex....*

It should certainly be fun though.

*Edit. Like so . Maybe .

(38) Inquisitor [TIE Advanced v1] (7) Proton Rockets (8) Supernatural Reflexes. Points: 53

(38) Inquisitor [TIE Advanced v1] (7) Proton Rockets (8) Supernatural Reflexes. Points: 53

(82) Rexler Brath [TIE/D Defender] (2) Predator (10) Advanced Sensors Points: 94

Total points: 200

A bid would be handy but eh.

I had been pondering Rexler, but I'm a sucker for giving under-utilised pilots a chance.

(I've not got a second TAP myself, but I'll borrow one from my local group to give this list a try.)

How about sense on the inquisitors? That way you can get more value out supernatural.

I versed a version of this list and it so frustrating to fly against. All three ships having 3agi and focus + evade...

If you are only taking 1 or 2 shots a round against a shop it just won't die

10 minutes ago, Deffly said:

I versed a version of this list and it so frustrating to fly against. All three ships having 3agi and focus + evade...

If you are only taking 1 or 2 shots a round against a shop it just won't die

I'm glad to hear that it can work; a friend has been bringing a brutal Republic list (4 Gold Squadron Troopers, one generic Arc & Sinker) to our regular games nights, so I've been trying to find a list which can challenge it. My last attempt (Vader+Soontir+Duchess) caused him serious trouble (I still lost though), so something which is even more agile could be just the ticket...

I'm still wondering about SNR on the Inquisitors. You're basically trading a force for a focus and a pre-move at a cost of 8 points per ship. Against low initiative stuff the pre-move would be awesome but against high initiative, I don't think it's worth it. I build them with FCS and Concussion Missiles and fly three plus Jendon with Palp. With force + evade they are tough to kill for sure.

My problem with the Defender is just... *sigh* You can have Fel with Predator, Hull upgrade, and shield upgrade with only two fewer hit points, a great dial, and access to double mods. And it's 69 points. Cheaper than a basic Defender with no upgrades. And even the shield and hull upgrades aren't 100% necessary on Fel.

2 hours ago, eljms said:

I'm still wondering about SNR on the Inquisitors. You're basically trading a force for a focus and a pre-move at a cost of 8 points per ship. Against low initiative stuff the pre-move would be awesome but against high initiative, I don't think it's worth it. I build them with FCS and Concussion Missiles and fly three plus Jendon with Palp. With force + evade they are tough to kill for sure.

It's not about a Force for a Focus, it's up to two extra actions per turn. Their efficiency with SNR is absolutely unmatched, and a blue 1-turn makes them feisty little things. Fragile. But feisty.

47 minutes ago, bydand said:

It's not about a Force for a Focus, it's up to two extra actions per turn. Their efficiency with SNR is absolutely unmatched, and a blue 1-turn makes them feisty little things. Fragile. But feisty.

Absolutely this. With lower Init, you're not arc dodging against higher Init, you're forcing difficult decisions. So SNR provides a lot more flexibility when it comes to putting them in awkward spots and then access to an offensive/defensive token stack, as the situation demands.

Given that's available literally every turn, it's a good 8pt. It's better than AS for less. Makes for an expensive I3 but it's more not easy than not good .

Sure it must have been thought of and said before, but SNR could be priced fairly and affordably if it had just been dang charge based. Like so many things are .

1 hour ago, kempokid said:

My problem with the Defender is just... *sigh* You can have Fel with Predator, Hull upgrade, and shield upgrade with only two fewer hit points, a great dial, and access to double mods. And it's 69 points. Cheaper than a basic Defender with no upgrades. And even the shield and hull upgrades aren't 100% necessary on Fel.

2 more hit points on such a resilient frame goes a looooong way, it definitely puts those considerable half points further from reach.

Oh and always-on Leia is definitely a thing. My problem with Defenders is that even if another 4k is the best move, I'm really wanting to do an interesting curve at some point and occasionally, will just deliberately not 4k for no good reason.

Also, Sensors are good.

So I've been running multiple Inquisitors with SNR for several weeks now, in various guises. I have a few thoughts if they're of any use.

Firstly, ditch the ordnance. Every ordnance on an Inq is overcosted for it's opportunity cost, I've found. Clusters are nice as a defence against swarms, but swarms are lower initiative than you, so you can just arc dodge them anyway and deal with them as you see fit. As a defence against Aces, they're actually counter productive as they tend to paint a target on your back, and as tanky as these guys can be, RNG can (and has several times for me) roll you straight blanks, which all the tokens in the world won't help. If you have the points left over to throw in Clusters (or maybe an Ion), then sure, but I wouldn't be actively making room for them.

Secondly, FCS is potentially a drop too. I've been using it a lot, and the more I play it, the more I realise it's actually not all that necessary. In some cases it can even trap you into making a bad call with your action (taking a TL over an evade, for example). Again, if you have room, I'd hold onto it, but if you can squeeze in a big threat ace by dropping FCS on a couple of these, I wouldn't even think twice. I'd hold onto it over ordnance in a heartbeat.

Thirdly, and somewhat aptly, these guys work so much better when you field three together (assuming you have three models). Putting three of these on the board in the slimmed down version of just SNR, you can still get a Soontir w/ Predator and Afterburners in there, or Whisper w/ Juke, or even Echo w/ Fifth Brother. Each of those still has a 3pt bid, and all a big ol' threats that will do some serious damage while the Inqs are keeping the rest occupied. Keeping FCS on board the Inqs still leaves you with enough points for Soontir w/ Predator.

I've been playing them a fair bit recently with Major Vynder absolutely loaded for bear, most recently fitting Cluster Missiles, Concussion Missiles, Advanced Proton Torpedos, Advanced SLAM, FCS, and Crack Shot onto that frame. Now, honestly, that was too much, and you could absolutely pull back on a lot of that (ditch both missiles for Barrage Rockets, bump Crack Shot to Trick Shot, decide yourself whether you want to keep the Adv Protons or put FCS back on the Inqs). Vynder is a menace for aces, and their mobility means the enemy often has to decide whether to chase the big gun and let the Inqs take their shots, or deal with the Inqs incessant knife-fighting while Vynder sets up the gun run.

These guys are so survivable and adaptable they've become my new favourite ship to fly, so I've been doing (and will still be doing) a lot of experimenting to see who best they fly with. Four of them together was great fun, and did surprisingly well if I'm honest, but it lacked a punch. Next trials are with an Ion Cannon/Proton Torpedo Vynder, and the Echo w/ Fifth Brother shenanigans (because pre-move options aren't hard enough to visualise, I might as well throw Echo decloaks into the mix...).

I’ve run almost exactly this list, except I traded the ordinance for Advanced Sensors on Vessery. With his ability he doesn’t need FCS. I only played one game with it, but they rocked. The Inquisitors were almost always getting range one shots, and Vessery was always getting a ton of mods.

I was very impressed with the Inquisitors, and blocking with them is essential.

On 5/10/2019 at 3:26 PM, kempokid said:

My problem with the Defender is just... *sigh* You can have Fel with Predator, Hull upgrade, and shield upgrade with only two fewer hit points, a great dial, and access to double mods. And it's 69 points. Cheaper than a basic Defender with no upgrades. And even the shield and hull upgrades aren't 100% necessary on Fel.

I think I'd rather have Rexlar than Fel tbh. Interceptors in general are fun, but they don't allow for mistakes and I've taken a few off the board just by tractoring them into trouble with quadjumpers, or seen them burn to mines and bombs.

I have been toying with the idea of this following list although it is not as agile but is on the side of being able to tank more damage. Just wonderign what everyone though of it since it is similar in this vein.

Countess Ryad: Outmaneuver, Advanced Sensors.

2X Storm Squad ace Tie x1: Marksmanship, FCS, Afterburners. All for 198 points.

11 minutes ago, Flyingbrick said:

Countess Ryad: Outmaneuver, Advanced Sensors.

2X Storm Squad ace Tie x1: Marksmanship, FCS, Afterburners. All for 198 points.

I've used both elements separately.

That Ryad is up there with my favourite ship builds in 2.0. It does have some problems, using AS on a boost/roll is awesome but leaves reds and greens unmodified, so it's very variance prone. Combined with the I4, it can make it hard to deal enough damage, while still remaining hale and hearty.

The 2 Storms kick like a mule, which will go a long way towards getting ships off the table. But low Init, the trouble with getting a well timed lock, and lacking a focus when they do, means they're not actually that tanky when the enemy aims for them. Neither is it easy to maintain arc on a higher Init locked target.

So Ryad needs to bait hard and scarper with AS to buy the Storms room to engage with lock, not get smashed without focus and have better time on target. Then she can reengage with Outmanoeuvre.

Problem I see is that there are many things that will not find that plan hard to counter. The x1s are not very subtle ships, their options will be clear, so easier to engage and destroy them before focussing and trapping Ryad. She probably won't die, but half points is plenty enough.

They're both good parts, but I'm not sure they complement each other that well. Ryad worked well for us with Rex as a bigger bait, meant that she could get into position with AS, but then attack without it. Rex would obviously not go down easy.

Likewise, the Storms were good when combined with a Reaper and some TIEs thrown into the fight to maintain board control, while they approached off centre.

Still, like I say, both good parts, so no reason not to fly it and see if you can lay the trap. The Storms will surprise people with their damage output if left unchecked, while Ryad plays unkillable whale.

Oh boy, the list worked surprisingly well last night!

My opponent was flying Supernatural 7B Anakin with CLT Obi-Wan with a fairly deep bid. The Inquisitors showed themselves to be incredibly mobile, and their ability to reliably get an evade and a focus token saw them survive much longer than they had any right to (some of that came from unlucky attack dice from my opponent). Vessery helped to keep Anakin honest, the threat of three double modded attack dice with Juke forcing the Chosen One to burn Force to get out of arc/range, which made a huge difference late game as it effectively made Supernatural unusable.

Cluster Missiles actually were quite useful, as it gave me a three-dice attack at range two on the Inquisitors, which allowed me to sneak through extra morsels of damage or requiring Force points to be used on the defence.

At game's end, I had lost one Inquisitor, had lost one shield on the other, and Vessery was at full health.

Partly due to this topic, I've made small adjustments to one of my lists and am preparing to take it to a store event this wknd. Just need a run with it in a couple casual games with it tomorrow, for some fine tuning.

(82) Rexler Brath [TIE/D Defender] (2) Predator. Points: 84

(50) "Echo" [TIE/ph Phantom] (6) Outmaneuver (9) Fifth Brother. Points: 65

(38) Inquisitor [TIE Advanced v1] (8) Supernatural Reflexes (5) Cluster Missiles. Points: 51

Total points: 200

The fine tuning is a matter of Cluster Missiles vs upgrades on Rex.

Previously, I had Seventh Sister with nothing and Juke on the other 2, it was very effective. The SNR Inq is a straight point swap for 7Sis, so an easy adjustment.

I'm absolutely in love with Outmanoevre, 5th Bro Echo. I feel like taking a green dice away counters more things than Juke when you can reliably proc it. That makes Juke less effective on Rex, so if anything, I'll swap the Clusters for another copy of Outmanoeuvre. Although it's less useful on Rex, 2 copies presents nasty choices for the opponent when 1 will be almost inevitably behind them. Also makes the list 199, which may come in handy occasionally.

Rex and Echo are obviously the heavy lifters, so if the missiles paint a big easy target on the Inq, they will love the room it gives them.

I'm definitely keen to see where this thread could go should any more input be available?

Not a particular fan of wanting to play the Phantom at the moment (since I play very little and mostly Fly Casual, I'm still learning), but I really love the Defender and V1 TIE's and I'm open to learning anything about flying these ships together.

@Cuz05 I'm keeping an eye on your latest thread too since it'll be a great chance to learn about flying these two great ships with the Phantom!

1 hour ago, infyrana said:

I'm definitely keen to see where this thread could go should any more input be available?

Not a particular fan of wanting to play the Phantom at the moment (since I play very little and mostly Fly Casual, I'm still learning), but I really love the Defender and V1 TIE's and I'm open to learning anything about flying these ships together.

@Cuz05 I'm keeping an eye on your latest thread too since it'll be a great chance to learn about flying these two great ships with the Phantom!

Thanks! I have lots of input available

I am keen to pick up another TAP and try this route too. So may be revisiting when and if I do.

A few tips for you on flying Defenders and SuperTAPs then.

Obviously the Defender loves a 3+ speed manoeuvre. Makes them quite rigid and predictable, so when you look like having multiple shots and a block coming in, (and there will be plenty of blocks coming in), make sure your approach keeps the fast banks and straights available, you need the options. The worst thing is having a rock at the end of your 4k or 3 bank away.

Secondly, don't just 4k automatically because it's the best move this turn, check you have escape routes to follow it up with. Everybody knows you're going to 4k. Literally everybody. If you've got nowhere to go but the scrum afterwards, you're in trouble. Set up a new 4k instead.

One of the most important measurements you need to eye up and plan for is the 3 hard. Know your turn in and make sure to keep it open, it'll likely be round, or in front of a rock. Leave yourself a 5 straight/4k past it as well.

Nobody expects the 1 bank!! Keep it in your pocket as a surprise, but bear in mind that when you use it, you're as vulnerable as any normal ship but give up a lot more points.

Avoid stress at all costs. The 1 hard seems nice sometimes but almost always ends in tears.

TAPs like R1 ofc. SuperTAPs also like not dying terribly easily, (though they sometimes will anyway). To do the not always dying though, they need the SNR pre-move. Given when that happens, your opponent can block the pre-boost/rolls with any Initiative. If it's higher, they're blocking it for next turn. So get in close, but try to stay on the fringe of a scrum, rather than in the middle of it. With more than 1 of them, you'll also be in danger of blocking them yourself, since it can be hard to picture multiples of multiple options, so it takes a fair bit of planning. If in doubt, roll away-turn in, is the standard for pre-move shenanigans.

Pre-move boosts are great on a 3 straight, for keeping your ultimate destination open on approach, I'll sometimes do that instead of a 3 bank-boost, just to give myself the options, though the final position is slightly different.

Putting them together is not something I've done yet but it's likely the TAPs will want to get in and around, then largely stay close, while the Defender will pick it's openings and zoom and boom! Keep the D alive and trade the TAPs hard.

Rock placement is something I'm still getting to grips with but it seems to me the list may want more space around obstacles than you might think. That opens up a whole new subject and not one I'd really want to address with out specific list experience.

Enjoy!!

I wound up flying three SuperTAPs plus Soontir last night, going against a Ghost (Hera pilot+Saw crew), Wedge and Dutch list. It went badly for me, partially due to my poor flying, partially because the Ghost becomes a killing machine with Saw onboard with an FCS, and partially because I just did not focus my fire. My ships were all over the place, causing all sorts of headaches for my opponent, but that did not translate into meaningful shots.

The takeaway from this is that no amount of action economy can make up for actually knowing how to fly the damned things!

1 hour ago, AceDogbert said:

the Ghost becomes a killing machine with Saw onboard with an FCS

Friend of mine used to run this Hera against me a lot, adding in AP5 for the double mods. It's a real lesson in arc avoidance

I play someone now who says I'm the only person who consistently and continually avoids being shot at by his Tavson.

Those lessons are not easily forgotten, lol.

@Cuz05 Thank you for the great informative response! I'll have to come back here for a reminder when I next put the list into FlyCasual I grabbed a second TIE V1 recently and a 2nd ed dial for it, along with having my Republic pre-orders all cancelled (so I'm left deciding if I still want to invest), it's kinda making me think I should put in some effort flying these Imp Aces more and more. I might have to try the Ghost list as an opponent since I've always been interested in picking up the ship at some point for Rebels.

2 hours ago, infyrana said:

along with having my Republic pre-orders all cancelled (so I'm left deciding if I still want to invest)

@infyrana , you cancelled or the vendor cancelled? Either way, that sucks!

I too am following this thread. I love Tie Defenders. They alone got my interest in the Empire. Since Triple Defenders are no longer a thing in 2e, Defender + 2x TAPs piqued my interest.

Side note: What am i gonna do with 4x Defenders?!... EPIC 2e!