We discuss the Freeman issue, cheating and Painting minis on this episode

https://podcast.thefifthtrooper.com/e/star-wars-legion-podcast-ep-38-the-kessel-run/

The Freeman issue just makes it sound to me like everyone should just always use a bag (with flat order tokens). Then there's no question about shuffling or randomization from the stack. Personally I find shuffling the tokens unwieldy, and from playing Bolt Action I'm in the habit of using a bag for orders, so that was a easy decision for me.

I would love to have one of the Star Wars dice bags that FFG has on their Supply page...too bad they haven't reprinted them in at least a couple of years...

15 minutes ago, NeonWolf said:

I would love to have one of the Star Wars dice bags that FFG has on their Supply page...too bad they haven't reprinted them in at least a couple of years...

There are token bags in the RPQ kits for top 16 if you're attending one of those.

So much drama over grown men playing with plastic toy soldiers.

I Always use a bag and frown om People who don't and Always Keep an extra bag to offer My opponent. It's weird that yoy have to look out for cheating in these kind of games.

10 minutes ago, jocke01 said:

I Always use a bag and frown om People who don't and Always Keep an extra bag to offer My opponent. It's weird that yoy have to look out for cheating in these kind of games.

Yep. Same here. I provide my opponent a bag but I would understand if s/he prefers using a stack since it's per the RAW.

I don't like it when players fidget with their stack, continuously shuffling it while they play. It shouldn't bother me, but it does.

40 minutes ago, MasterShake2 said:

There are token bags in the RPQ kits for top 16 if you're attending one of those.

I know, and I'm planning on attending the one in my state, but would prefer a red Rebel symbol.

1 hour ago, NeonWolf said:

I would love to have one of the Star Wars dice bags that FFG has on their Supply page...too bad they haven't reprinted them in at least a couple of years...

My significant other made the bag I use out of Star Wars fabric that is available at many different fabric stores.

At the shop we're I usually play, we let the opponent pick the token for us! We leave them in a pile, ready to be chosen for us, reducing any chance of foul play

1 hour ago, NeonWolf said:

I would love to have one of the Star Wars dice bags that FFG has on their Supply page...too bad they haven't reprinted them in at least a couple of years...

Most fabric stores these days have SW print cottons on hand at all times. Make a drawstring bag. It's about 2 steps below beginner Home-Ec class level of sewing difficulty. Or if you really can't, get someone else to sew them and let them keep the leftover fabric.

1 hour ago, jocke01 said:

So much drama over grown men playing with plastic toy soldiers.

I Always use a bag and frown om People who don't and Always Keep an extra bag to offer My opponent. It's weird that yoy have to look out for cheating in these kind of games.

You would be surprised how often cheating occurs over having fun or competing in tournaments with trivial prizes. It's really sad how often I see it.

12 minutes ago, TauntaunScout said:

Most fabric stores these days have SW print cottons on hand at all times. Make a drawstring bag. It's about 2 steps below beginner Home-Ec class level of sewing difficulty. Or if you really can't, get someone else to sew them and let them keep the leftover fabric.

39 minutes ago, Caimheul1313 said:

My significant other made the bag I use out of Star Wars fabric that is available at many different fabric stores.

I realize those are options also. I currently use a Crown Royal Black bag. I was just starting that, all options on the table, I would prefer the one FFG hasn't reprinted.

Thanks, though.🤘😎👍

I don't want to weigh in on bags being required or not, other than to say that it's not hard to keep track of a given token when you're shuffling.

What I do want to add is, I think both yourself and your opponent should have to shuffle tokens both before rounds begin and after any command cards that require a reshuffle. Even in casual games where neither player has any intention or reason to cheat, this is still useful because some people just don't shuffle well enough.

Regarding this incident, I know in a few casual games I've played we've forgotten to reshuffle the token pile. It's an easy mistake to make and not just once. So whilst I believe disqualification was appropriate due to the rules violation, I'm not sure I think people should label someone a cheat under these circumstances. As it's not imho clear enough whether it's deliberate or just a mistake.

Not listened to the podcast yet, but thought I'd voice my opinion before I'm swayed by the podcast

1 hour ago, NeonWolf said:

I realize those are options also. I currently use a Crown Royal Black bag. I was just starting that, all options on the table, I would prefer the one FFG hasn't reprinted.

Thanks, though.🤘😎👍

It's time you graduated to Blanton's! Assuming you can find it for a reasonable price.

When it comes to bags, what's to prevent a player from marking his or her tokens? Seems goofy, but dishonest play finds a way.

7 minutes ago, DwainDibbly said:

I don't want to weigh in on bags being required or not, other than to say that it's not hard to keep track of a given token when you're shuffling.

What I do want to add is, I think both yourself and your opponent should have to shuffle tokens both before rounds begin and after any command cards that require a reshuffle. Even in casual games where neither player has any intention or reason to cheat, this is still useful because some people just don't shuffle well enough.

Regarding this incident, I know in a few casual games I've played we've forgotten to reshuffle the token pile. It's an easy mistake to make and not just once. So whilst I believe disqualification was appropriate due to the rules violation, I'm not sure I think people should label someone a cheat under these circumstances. As it's not imho clear enough whether it's deliberate or just a mistake.

Not listened to the podcast yet, but thought I'd voice my opinion before I'm swayed by the podcast

In my opinion, they did a very good job of keeping their personal feelings out of the discussion, just stating things that they were either directly told or directly witnessed.

It is possible that his actions weren't malicious, but whether or not he cheated, he had the opportunity to learn the sequence of his blind draw order tokens, which is a rules violation. I also agree that this lone incident shouldn't result in being branded a cheater, unlike shaving dice, trick rolling, lying about game state (always waiting until seeing if you NEED to re-roll to declare that "I totally meant to take an Aim Action," or "I totally did an action on that Moisture evaporator, I just forgot to add/remove a token"), inconsistent cover application, or purposefully bumping miniatures to change Ranges.

My understanding of what was discussed was that the stream showed him on multiple occasions during the Orders phase looking at face down order tokens to find the ones he needed for issued orders, then, without randomizing the face down tokens, stacking them up. The podcast does a much better job of explaining it than I probably just did. Regardless, I can understand how that would be an honest mistake, but the organizes are in the unenviable position of having to make a decision, especially since there is publicly available video footage of the incident in question.

1 hour ago, qwertyuiop said:

When it comes to bags, what's to prevent a player from marking his or her tokens? Seems goofy, but dishonest play finds a way.

If your tokens are not perfectly smooth on both sides, or otherwise identifiable by touch, they're not allowed to be used. So what prevents it is your opponent/judge checking your tokens prior to or during the game, visually/physically.

2 minutes ago, qwertyuiop said:

It's time you graduated to Blanton's! Assuming you can find it for a reasonable price.

I have a source, actually....

My wife is the general manager of a rather large liquor store so I get it at a reasonable price whenever I want. 😉

I don't actually drink the Crown Royal Black (often) just wanted the black bag.

1 hour ago, DwainDibbly said:

I don't want to weigh in on bags being required or not, other than to say that it's not hard to keep track of a given token when you're shuffling.

What I do want to add is, I think both yourself and your opponent should have to shuffle tokens both before rounds begin and after any command cards that require a reshuffle. Even in casual games where neither player has any intention or reason to cheat, this is still useful because some people just don't shuffle well enough.

Regarding this incident, I know in a few casual games I've played we've forgotten to reshuffle the token pile. It's an easy mistake to make and not just once. So whilst I believe disqualification was appropriate due to the rules violation, I'm not sure I think people should label someone a cheat under these circumstances. As it's not imho clear enough whether it's deliberate or just a mistake.

Not listened to the podcast yet, but thought I'd voice my opinion before I'm swayed by the podcast

I use a bag, and I give it a good shake for a few seconds before I draw a token, every time. I often just shake it while I'm thinking, too.

I don't think a token stack is a good method of randomization.

13 minutes ago, manoftomorrow010 said:

I use a bag, and I give it a good shake for a few seconds before I draw a token, every time. I often just shake it while I'm thinking, too.

I don't think a token stack is a good method of randomization.

Not sure if you misunderstood what I said, or I misunderstood your response, but I agree, I was referring to the token stack method when I said it's not hard to track a token. I'm just not sure how I feel about bags been required or not, not really given it much thought.

1 hour ago, Caimheul1313 said:

In my opinion, they did a very good job of keeping their personal feelings out of the discussion, just stating things that they were either directly told or directly witnessed. 

Just listened to the podcast and I agree, they dealt with it the best way they could, gave the facts, gave the player a chance to comment and moved along.

the best bag to use is the same one almost all D&D players have, Crown royal bag, it even comes with a decent drink too for the price :-D.

6 hours ago, Thraug said:

You would be surprised how often cheating occurs over having fun or competing in tournaments with trivial prizes. It's really sad how often I see it.

Yeah, it's weird. I have heard stuff gors down in MTG circles, however there is a large player pool and real cash prizes so I can understand cheating there ( not that I endorse cheating).

In games like this att most you get a nice trophy and some Promo stuff. Sure you could sell prizes for some pocket cash, but nothing serious.

Out of interest the dice bags are currently marked as "awaiting reprint" in the upcoming queue although that could still mean months down the line.

3 minutes ago, Zerker said:

Out of interest the dice bags are currently marked as "awaiting reprint" in the upcoming queue although that could still mean months down the line.

they have been that way since 2016 don't hold your breath about getting those.

10 hours ago, Caimheul1313 said:

The Freeman issue just makes it sound to me like everyone should just always use a bag (with flat order tokens). Then there's no question about shuffling or randomization from the stack. Personally I find shuffling the tokens unwieldy, and from playing Bolt Action I'm in the habit of using a bag for orders, so that was a easy decision for me.

You know something’s gone terribly wrong when someone names an Issue after you.

5 hours ago, jocke01 said:

Yeah, it's weird. I have heard stuff gors down in MTG circles, however there is a large player pool and real cash prizes so I can understand cheating there ( not that I endorse cheating).

In games like this att most you get a nice trophy and some Promo stuff. Sure you could sell prizes for some pocket cash, but nothing serious.

I've seen and heard of people cheating in casual games with nothing on the line. I've even seen firsthand people cheat while playing tabletop RPGs which are supposed to be cooperative story telling. It isn't always about the prize, its about "winning," either in actually winning the game, being "smarter" than the other players to get away with something, or just because they can't stand to "fail."

Plus, there is a certain amount of notoriety that goes along with qualifying for World's, let alone winning.