Hey, I've got a few questions about various areas of the game.

1. There are talents in the Rank Trees that say "you can take this talent up to a certain number of times at this rank", i.e. Psychic Power (100 XP). On other Ranks it is set at 200 XP with no such restriction. It says nowhere in the rules from what I've read that you can only buy talents once per rank and no talents state that they can be taken multiple times which if it did would assume that as default you can only take talents once. Am I right in thinking that you can buy Psychic Power at 100 XP only to the number of times specified and then buy as many Psychic Powers for 200 XP as you like? This has been house ruled as "Yes" but if it is stated anywhere in the canon, I'd like to find it.

2. For Psy Ratings above 6 should you create a new Talent called Pay Rating 7 (8, 9, 10 etc...) and copy the text from Psy Rating 6? There seems to be no-where in Dark Heresy: Ascension that explains how Psy Rating +1 works. Would this work the same when a Psyker takes Sorcery? Again, this is how our house rules work, this is just for canon clarification.

3. Is there a weight limit for Precision Telekenisis? It states that you can manipulate items as if you were handling them so for example I could pick up an MP Las Cannon (55kg) With PTK leaving the power pack on the floor and fire it using WP-20 (Untrained) assuming the KISS method of "my carry limit is the powers limit if it's treated as if I'm handling it."

4. Multiple Sustained Abilities vs. Actions per round: (WARNING: Cheesy example follows...)

Fighting in a well stocked armoury -

Round 1. Use Precision Telekenisis to pick up an MP Las Cannon,

Round 2. Use Precision Telekenisis to pick up an MP Las Cannon,

Round 3. Use Precision Telekenisis to pick up an MP Las Cannon,

Round 4. Use Precision Telekenisis to pick up an MP Las Cannon.

I now have 4 guns aimed towards the door as I'm waiting for enemies to enter. Round 5, enemy enters....

As I'm sustaining all four powers, can all of these powers be used on Round 5 to fire all 4 guns or can I only fire one gun per round?

5. Carry/Lift/Push Algorithm - Is there an algorithm you can use to quickly determine c/l/p limits when going above the 20 listed in the Main Rulebook? For use with Unnatural Strength and Toughness for example.

1. If it says you can take a talent more than once then you can take a talent more than once. If it does not say you can take it more than once then you may only take a talent once. You do not get to buy unlimited numbers of any skill or talent.

ex: A Savant-Warrant may buy Psychic Power ONCE for 200 xp at this rank.

A Scholar Medicae may buy Psychic Power TWICE for 100xp each at this rank.

2. The description is lacking/non-existent. I would say that Psy Rating +1 is simply that, just add 1 to your Psy rating, no more. It is just giving you an extra die to roll, no other powers.

3- 4 You seem to have missed the very point of what Precision Telekinesis is. PTK by its very description is about fine manipulation of small objects, not picking up 4 MP las cannons. Handling an item dose not equate to picking up a 55kg or 121 pound heavy weapon. Handling would, by all examples given, mean holding in or being manipulated by one hand. If you can't hold it in one hand, you can't manipulate it with PTK. If you need a hard number I would say .5kg max.

You could use PTK to pull the trigger on a MP Las Cannon that was lying on the ground, not braced, without the training, using your WP, with a massive penalty on top of the previous because you can't aim the weapon at all. But I, as GM, would roll scatter and have the gun start spraying wildly in random directions as the trigger was pulled.

5. If there is a creature that has a 10 Toughness and 10 Strength bonus that needs to worry about lifting, carrying, or pushing something someone hasn't read their official =][= copy of Virus Bombs, Exterminatus and You .

ItsUncertainWho said:

Where does it specifically say that in the rules? I've read the Main Book cover to cover and can't find anywhere where is specifically states this. We've house ruled it anyway because it was brought up by a few of the players and it seemed unreasonable that if a Psyker piled as much XP as possible into Psychic Power he could only get 16 out of 40 Psychic Powers, if he wanted to spend 4,800XP on the remaining 24 Powers, at detriment to other skills and abilities then so be it. The canon rules, as stated in the Main Book, seem to support this by their omission of a statement to the contarary.

ItsUncertainWho said:

From all the other threads I've seen on this kind of subject (I've read back over the last 42 pages on this forum) it would say otherwise. Personally, seems like a complete waste of 800 XP doing it that way if all you get is one moe dice to roll. I don't see why Psy Rating 7 should be any different to Psy Rating 6. I'd like to get an official ruling on this. House Rules say Common Sense atm and won't change anyway now it's set but I'd like to know officially.
ItsUncertainWho said:

The rules for the power say: "Essentially, you can manipulate objects as if you were physically handling them." If I was physically handling a gun, forget the previous example, just a normal Stub Auto; if I was physically handling that gun then I'd be able to pick it up, wave it around, fire the trigger etc. This was my meaning. It seems arbitrarily flawed if "Physically Handling" an item means you can't move it.

My example for 4 was a bad one I admit, my question was more about multiple powers vs/ actions per round. Using the (IMHO flawed) logic that you can't move things when physically handling them, if I manifest 4 sustained PTK on 4 enemies weapons (say a 4 person firing squad while the charges were being read) could I in round 5 put all 4 guns safeties, using all 4 manifested powers or only be able to put one safety on per round.

This, again, is only an example. The point of the question still stands.
ItsUncertainWho said:

A high level Magos or Vindicare Assassin can easily get into the 20's, the high 20's with Bionics.

The main reason I'm asking is because I'm trying to design a Loader (ala Alien or HAL5) style Exo Skeleton for a Field Mechanic player to jack up vehicles and I'm testing out various methods of doing it so it fits with the canon rules. Even with a combined stat of 20, the Loader would still snap in half trying to jack up a light tank. If it's based on HAL5 then it would give you US(x5)

Apache said:

Loot at the Imperial Psyker advance schemes; at Rank 1, Minor Psychic Power is listed. At Rank 2, Minor Psychic Power is listed again, with a little note saying that "You may take this talent up to three times at this Rank".

If any talent could be taken any number of times as desired, then the second entry would be superfluous. At any point where you are allowed to purchase the same talent multiple times from a single rank, there will be a note to explain that you can. If there isn't a note, then you can only buy that talent once at that time. This is the case whether you're talking about Sound Constitution talents or Psychic Powers.

N0-1_H3r3 said:

This is the thing you see, it can be read either way. The "This talent can be taken <x> times at this rank" can be seen as a limit, restricting you to taking it only twice, hence it being a lower XP value or it can mean you can take it more than the usual once, hence the lower XP cost. Because there is no set written rule saying which is true, you have to make a judgement call. Unless I'm mistaken and it does explicitly state somewhere in the rules and clearly define that the latter is the case?

I see what you're getting at.

But consider this, since minor psychic power is only listed once at rank 1, that would basically mean it would never have to be mentioned ever again since you can always go back and buy from a previous rank at any time and with your interpretation it would mean that I can buy unlimited number at anytime if I have the XP.

It means that you get the number of psychic powers listed under Psy Rating when you buy that and then you can buy Psychic Power talent as many times as its listed in each rank. You are not meant to know all psychic powers, thats not how DH works.

You seem to be unable to wrap your head around the description of the text in PTK. All examples given are of actions involving negligible weight and very fine control. You also seem to miss the text of the power allowing for one type of action, ie pushing a button, pulling a grenade pin, etc.

As for your power loader, the one from Aliens isn't meant for, nor would it be capable of lifting a tank. To lift a tank you need very specialized equipment. You are not going to be able to mount that kind of gear on a power loader and make it stable. You might be able to tilt a rhino on to one side to get access to the road wheels, but you aren't going to be doing that level of field repair in a power suit.

As for the rest of your questions you seem to not want to listen to anyone say anything other than Yes, you can have unlimited psychic abilities and unlimited wounds . If you want official FFG responses email the company. They are very good at getting back official answers. Go to the Rules question page and send an email to FFG.

In my game you can only by a skill/talent one time, unless it is otherwise noticed like for Sound Constitution.

In my game Psy +1 does not grant additional powers. And I would allow the primaris psyker access to the psykers gift ascended talent for free (and give an adept with psy rating the option to that talent as his ascended talent of choice). We also note the psy rating as 6+3, so the psy +1 talents does not prevent you from buying psy rating 1,2,3,... etc.

In my game we are currently discussing how to handle unnatural "stats". I think we are beginning to lean towards making a custom house rule saying it gives the character an extra option to do either a +5 or +10 stat advance and otherwise complete scrap all the wierdness of stuff that unnatural "stats" does in the official ruleset.

In your game...

Alox said:

The expanded rules for Unatural Stats are actually pretty effective, it takes a lot of reading and some playtesting to get your head around them and it does add a complexity to the game (and in some cases unbalance the characters) but they can work in a normal game if used properly.

My main question with that was not asking about Unnatural Stats per se, I just need a formula for working out C/L/P above 20, Ascension gives you oppportunity to go over the 20 set out in the Main Book without giving an expanded table. The Powerloader Exoskeleten is an idea in the making, the basic rules are set out, I just need a table or formula to work from.

Just wondering with your rules for Psykers, would a Psychic Sorceror be Psy Rating 6 + 2 + 3? One thing you may be able to do, if your Psykers have listed their advances at the bottom of the char sheet then you can have it noted down that they are Psy Rating 9 or 11 because they have a written record of what advances they've taken. Just a thought

ItsUncertainWho said:

I just don't understand how the words "you can manpulate objects as if you were physically handling them" can be taken to mean you can't move them? It's non-sensicle. It says "At it's most basic" as a prefix to the examples given and idicates that is can be used to move items with great speed very accurately. The examples given are not a pre-defined whitelist of operations and in the small space given for text it doesn't go on to say, "At an intermediate level this power can be used to X, Y and Z".

If you're physically handling a rock then you can pick it up, juggle with three of them, chuck one at a mate's power armour and giggle at the "clunk". You wouldn't be restricted to just prodding it every now and again. If you were physically handling a piano, you could play a nice tune just by prodding it but you could als, if you were so inclined, push it down a flight of stairs.

All this is made even more irrelevent though by you once again misreading the quesiton. My quesiton was "If you have 4 sustained powers, can I use those powers within a round as my action?" Taking one of the things that we both agree the power works with, I'm in a 20ftx20ft room and there's buttons on each of the four walls (high up), I have to press every button at the same time for the door to open and I'm on my own, can I spend 4 rounds manifesting PTK and on the 5th round press all four buttons or will I be locked in the room forever?

ItsUncertainWho said:

You have competely mis-understood my question. As my post previous will explain, I was merely asking for an expanded C/L/P limit chart and gave two examples of why it is needed and how it would be used. For the moment, where and how such hypothetical equipment is used is irrelevent to the question. If I need advise on building such a device, I shall ask.

ItsUncertainWho said:

Because there are no rules in the book regarding how many times the talents can be taken it can be read either way. Same with Psy Rating +1. There's no canon rules so you have to make house rules for them. I was arguing to the fact that it's not set in stone and was asking whether I had missed a line of text somewhere to the contrary.

It's not that I'm not prepared to listen, I am if someone can give me a reference to the page in the books/errata that cements this rule in place. You seem to have a very holier than thou approach to your posts so please enlighten me if there are written rules you know of which have eluded me. It's not about having unlimited powers or wounds, it's about quite a fundamental rule not being made clear within the books. It's perfectly reasonable to state our interpretation of the rules including reasoning and example; I was looking for canononical reference, that's all.

Apache said:

Munchkins are infamous for various degrees of cheating, willfully misinterpreting rules that work against them while boisterously proclaiming ones that work in their favor. As a matter of course they selectively obey the letter of rules while perverting the spirit blatantly .

taken from the Wikipedia entry under Munchkin (roleplaying games)

A rules lawyer is a participant in a rules-based environment who attempts to use the letter of the law without reference to the spirit, usually in order to gain an advantage within that environment.

taken from the Wikipedia entry under Rules Lawyer

I find that people who use the excuse of "the rules don't specifically say I can't do it", or "see...it's just not clear" to be one, the other or both of the above.

Apache said:

Rules in an RPG tend to concentrate on what a character can do , not what they can't do -outlining what can be done tends to show what can't by exclusion. This would be one of those cases. While house-ruling that one can buy the Psychic Power talent infinite times is perfectly valid (there's really no such thing as an invalid house-rule) it is not supported by the RAW. Granted, this is not explicitly spelled out on any page, it is quite clear if you look at the pattern and keep in mind that rules, by default, state what you can do and not what you can't. If it doesn't say you can do something, chances are, you can't.

If it were true that you could buy Psychic Power an unlimited number of times if it doesn't explicitly state you can't, then the same would be true for Sound Constitution -after all, it is listed with a notation as to how many times you could buy it per rank sometimes and other times, it is listed without the notation. However, if that were true, why the hell would it need to be listed without a notation as to how many times it could be purchased on almost every rank of the psyker career? All you would need to do is keep buying it from rank 1... or 3... or 5.... This idea breaks down even further when you look at the Guardsmen career.

On rank 2 they have Sound Constitution listed for 100 but no indication as to how many times it can be purchased. Latter, on the guardsmen Veterans rank, Sound Constitution is listed for 200 with a notation that it can only be purchased up to two times at that rank. So, why the hell would that even be listed if you could buy an indefinite amount of it for half the cost per purchase from a lower rank? It simply doesn't make any sense. What dose make sense when considering the pattern is that you can't buy Sound Constitution multiple times unless it is explicitly noted otherwise. As that is clearly true for Sound Constitution (else other careers have a good handful of talents listed that make absolutely no sense for them to be listed at their cost/rank at all such as Arbitrator, Cleric, Assassin, Adept, Scum, Tech-Priest, and Guardsmen) then it must also be true for the Psychic Power talent -since the sound constitution talent is purchased in a similar fashion as Psychic Power and is noted and un-noted in a similar fashion as well, it is a reasonable precedent to look at. Like-wise, the fact that all other talents that are never noted as being able to be purchased multiple times can not be purchased multiple times either dispite the fact that there is no notation to that effect.

A little deductive reasoning, pattern recognition, and common sense can go a long way in figuring out the RAW of most any rule system. And remember, by default, the rules say what you can do , not what you can't unless the situation is exceptional. So, if they don't say you can do something, chances are, you can't.

Edit: oh, and on your question regaurding the Cary/Lift/Push chart, it goes up by 450 kg every level from 17 on. Lift is twice the amount of Carry and Push is twice the amount of Lift. So, 21 would be 2,700 / 5,400 / 10,800; 22 would be 3,150 / 6,300 / 12,600 etc.

The example you give about the four buttons in a room, I would say yes, that is logical to do with PTK. I would say there is no need to wait until round 5. Manifest on round 4 push the button and the push with the other sustained powers.

Also, I never stated that you couldn't move an object with PTK. I said you would be limited to one type of action. Which means one type of action per round that you sustain your power, since that is what sustaining powers allows you to do. I also didn't say that you were limited to the actions listed in the description.

As for Psy Rating +1, you don't need house rules unless you don't want to take the text at face value. Ascension is not about getting lots of little powers, it's about getting a few really big powers, hence I believe you should not gain anything with this talent.
As for the rest Graver and Illithidelderbrain covered everything.