I was thinking about how Luke is able to grasp and use the Force pretty fast once Obi-Wan starts working with him. We don't know how many instruction sessions he has with him before he joins with the Force on the Death Star, but it doesn't seem like it could be all that much.

In any case I read the original novelization of the first movie and watched the movies tons of times, and I have never seen any mention of Luke being super lucky or good at stuff besides flying (which is never described beyond what a mundane pilot might be able to achieve if talented). I like this idea of individuals being possibly Force Sensitive but not realizing it through the character being better than everyone else in some exaggerated manner.

The barely restrained Force Sensitive trope is problematic because it makes them super easy to find. Look for the exceptional people in any population and you are probably gonna have your search narrowed by a good amount. Then out of those people look for statistical anomalies in their performance etc.

But Force Sensitives like Luke (who ends up being powerful so he's no slouch) would be harder to find as they would essentially be normal people if observed.

Doing this also means that if a player is going to later take a Force Sensitive spec after play starts that it is not so jarring and does not beg the question of why they never showed Force ability before like all of the other FS characters. The new standard of the wild Force user who is lucky or knows things or makes brooms fly into their hands is gonna get stale as it is repeatedly used in a predictable form. It also seems lame that they can do things like have brooms fly into their hand and be shocked when they learn about the Force. What? I thought everyone could do amazing stuff by metaphysical means?

Have you ever had Force Sensitive characters in your game that were like Tatooine Luke, and if so how was it handled?

Big difference between them is that Luke grew up with Imperial propaganda and historical revisionism, which made knowledge of the Force rare and forbidden. Broom boy, meanwhile, is explicitly the result of Luke's legend inspiring people across the galaxy. He wouldn't be surprised the Force exists - he's just listened to a true story about Luke using the Force!

Besides, Luke is dude from a farm who can climb into a space F-16 without any training and successfully take part in combat operations. If that's not absurdly hypercompetent I don't know what is.

15 minutes ago, Stan Fresh said:

Big difference between them is that Luke grew up with Imperial propaganda and historical revisionism, which made knowledge of the Force rare and forbidden. Broom boy, meanwhile, is explicitly the result of Luke's legend inspiring people across the galaxy. He wouldn't be surprised the Force exists - he's just listened to a true story about Luke using the Force!

Besides, Luke is dude from a farm who can climb into a space F-16 without any training and successfully take part in combat operations. If that's not absurdly hypercompetent I don't know what is.

No. Luke is able to climb into a space f-16(x-wing) after being very competant with a Space T-38(T-16) with the same control setup. Very different than being hyper competant. and he used to bullseye small targets in that T-16

He shoots animals from a bush plane.

That's not training to fly a combat mission in a hi-tech fighter craft.

16 minutes ago, Stan Fresh said:

He shoots animals from a bush plane.

That's not training to fly a combat mission in a hi-tech fighter craft.

Stop leaving out the fact the t-16 and x-wing have VERY similar controls.

Quote

Luke Skywalker owned a T-16 skyhopper on Tatooine prior to the Battle of Yavin , as well as a small model that could be held in one's hands. ^[1] He would use the airspeeder's pneumatic cannon to kill womp rats . The controls were similar to Incom's T-65B X-wing starfighter , which greatly benefited Skywalker during the Battle of Yavin. ^[5]

42 minutes ago, Daeglan said:

Stop leaving out the fact the t-16 and x-wing have VERY similar controls   .

Where in the movie is this "fact" shown, again?

In the game I'm running right now we have 3 Force Sensitive characters a current Jedi Padawan, former Jedi Knight and a smuggler pilot who learned she was force sensitive later in the game (I don't even think the player planned on this development).

The character hasn't done anything flashy with the Force (yet) so it hasn't really been much of an issue working it in to the narrative. The character also has the Smuggler Signature ability of manipulating rolled dice so "luck" is part of the character both narratively and meta-game wise do being Force Sensitive isn't really shocking. In game the late-bloomer has recently approached the Jedi in the group for training - and the (ex) Jedi Knight has agreed, the Padawan considering it. So further Force development is worked into the story.

Having a PC or NPC mentor around or in the party helps out a lot (which is also the story of Luke with Obi-wan).

1 hour ago, Stan Fresh said:

Where in the movie is this "fact" shown, again?

A New Hope.

Each Jedi is 'unique'. They all have strengths and weaknesses. The skywalker line appears to really focus on reflexes making them superb pilots and quite talented at lightsaber combat. Humans generally weren't talented enough to pilot pod racers as their reaction time was too slow. Yet Anakin could at an extremely young age. Had he been in the core worlds, he would have been identified at a younger age. Kylo can dive into a person's mind. Other Jedi are more athletic, able to read objects for past experiences, etc, etc. While Jedi can, with training, develop most if not all jedi skills and abilities, they tend to have natural talent in one or two areas where they really excel. Those areas are the ones most likely to develop naturally with or without training.

One's preternatural ability really determines how 'showy' they would be while developing their skills. Having heightened reflexes wouldn't really stand out that much. Having a natural ability to move things however would certainly be a red flag.

It's actually canon that imperial training facilities specifically watched people that performed significantly better than average as they were suspected as having force sensitivity. These recruits often disappeared. Had Luke joined the Imperial academy and pursued his goal of becoming a pilot for the Empire, he might have been a little too gifted and might have gone missing also.

This is honestly one of the biggest improvements of this system over previous Star Wars RPGs. You are able to take up a force based spec that fits the role of your character.

Got a melee specialist that has been laying waste to everything as a marauder? Maybe the reason was because he was naturally gifted due to the force, and moving into the Aggressor spec is a natural fit. Got a gifted ace that is a master pilot? Maybe it's because they have some hidden connection to the force that manifests through their piloting ability and they'd make a great racer or starfighter ace.

It allows players to slowly manifest those force powers in a way that doesn't require being a Jedi.

1 hour ago, Stan Fresh said:

Where in the movie is this "fact" shown, again?

Also Here
https://www.starwars.com/databank/t-16-skyhopper

44 minutes ago, Daeglan said:

A New Hope.

Reread my question, maybe.

2 hours ago, Daeglan said:

Stop leaving out the fact the t-16 and x-wing have VERY similar controls.

You do realize that this isn't a very important factor right? I mean, I know how to drive a car, but that doesn't mean the US military is going to toss me into humvee and ship me off to Iran if I happen to wander into a military base the day we decide to invade them.

It's somewhat comical when you think about it. Hey, this farm kid with no training, combat experience, knowledge of our tactics, or formation flying experience, wants to join our impending battle against the greatest threat to our galaxy.

Are you insane? He'd be a liability! You want to give him one of our rare, valuable, incredibly important military aircraft on a whim?

Well, he flew a T16 alone in a desert a time or two, so you know, the controls are basically the same right?

Well why didn't you say so? Slap him in a cockpit and point him at the enemy!

3 minutes ago, kmanweiss said:

You do realize that this isn't a very important factor right? I mean, I know how to drive a car, but that doesn't mean the US military is going to toss me into humvee and ship me off to Iran if I happen to wander into a military base the day we decide to invade them.

It's somewhat comical when you think about it. Hey, this farm kid with no training, combat experience, knowledge of our tactics, or formation flying experience, wants to join our impending battle against the greatest threat to our galaxy.

Are you insane? He'd be a liability! You want to give him one of our rare, valuable, incredibly important military aircraft on a whim?

Well, he flew a T16 alone in a desert a time or two, so you know, the controls are basically the same right?

Well why didn't you say so? Slap him in a cockpit and point him at the enemy!

While you're 100% correct (and hilarious!) I suspect that Luke got special treatment because he helped save Leia, and she vouched for him. Besides, he shot down just as many TIE fighters as the space-hardened smuggler, so he's decent enough. And they need all hands on deck here, right?

6 minutes ago, kmanweiss said:

You do realize that this isn't a very important factor right? I mean, I know how to drive a car, but that doesn't mean the US military is going to toss me into humvee and ship me off to Iran if I happen to wander into a military base the day we decide to invade them.

It's somewhat comical when you think about it. Hey, this farm kid with no training, combat experience, knowledge of our tactics, or formation flying experience, wants to join our impending battle against the greatest threat to our galaxy.

Are you insane? He'd be a liability! You want to give him one of our rare, valuable, incredibly important military aircraft on a whim?

Well, he flew a T16 alone in a desert a time or two, so you know, the controls are basically the same right?

Well why didn't you say so? Slap him in a cockpit and point him at the enemy!

I am pretty sure they vetted his abilities before hand in a simulator, and the biggest factor is they had Biggs who had been flying with the rebels for a while vouche for him and his abilities. Top it all off this is a rebellion they are probably desperate for volunteers.


Edit: also I do much of this type of thing all the time, my character is a Sentinel class and is highly skilled in computers and mechanics, but still has 0 force powers and right now I am just playing him as a highly skilled outlaw tech of sorts. He grew up on the streets and "wouldnt have lasted so long if he wasn't so good at building things". My first power I am going to pick up is going to be Sense a very passive type of thing with enhance being later and with his brawn and agility only being 2, enhance will only bring him closer to actual skilled individuals so nothing out of the ordinary.

2 hours ago, Absol197 said:

While you're 100% correct (and hilarious!) I suspect that Luke got special treatment because he helped save Leia, and she vouched for him. Besides, he shot down just as many TIE fighters as the space-hardened smuggler, so he's decent enough. And they need all hands on deck here, right?

Also Red Squadron had a bunch of vacancies. And in the Novelization they tested him in a simulator and Biggs ALSO Vouched for him as being a good pilot.

2 hours ago, kmanweiss said:

You do realize that this isn't a very important factor right? I mean, I know how to drive a car, but that doesn't mean the US military is going to toss me into humvee and ship me off to Iran if I happen to wander into a military base the day we decide to invade them.

It's somewhat comical when you think about it. Hey, this farm kid with no training, combat experience, knowledge of our tactics, or formation flying experience, wants to join our impending battle against the greatest threat to our galaxy.

Are you insane? He'd be a liability! You want to give him one of our rare, valuable, incredibly important military aircraft on a whim?

Well, he flew a T16 alone in a desert a time or two, so you know, the controls are basically the same right?

Well why didn't you say so? Slap him in a cockpit and point him at the enemy!

1. He didnt fly a T-16 a time or two. He did it all the time. He also Learned from Biggs before he who went to the Academy. and Biggs vouched for him.
2. It isnt like he just driving a car. He flew down canyons shooting wamp rats. Which is very much like doing ground attack runs and required more skill. And this is all stuff established in the movie to show he is not a noob. He is a skilled bush pilot. He wanted power converters to fix his T-16. Which you can see in the garage when he is working on C3P0 and R2

Well thing is, whether or not he was considered trained, Luke is an exceptional pilot. He had never flown live against other pilots before and did very well in what was considered a very hostile environment. He might not have been green, but he was inexperienced and for someone completely new to the game of insurgencies? He was doing pretty well.

I think what has changed however is the Tropes that are employed in modern movies; people want to see evidence that the character is somehow exceptional. They want to see that "highly gifted child" fly a star fighter through an entire droid fleet and blow up a space station through a mixture of luck (which really, is the force bending circumstances if you think about it broadly) and ingrained skill, and furthermore won a pod race with a speeder he built, or that tough survivor adapting to various situations as she is relentlessly challenged in ways she is extremely poorly equipped to handle against someone who knows the force, so she learnt to use the tools her captor's use against him. These are blunt turma tropes used to establish that the character is highly capable heroic character that is inherently more capable then the people that surround them. Luke didn't really benefit from these tropes because he was from a very different era where main characters were expected to be heroic and effectively bulletproof, thus being such wasn't considered an exceptional quality no more then the Man with No Name in the westerns is an unstoppable force of nature. There is no magical quality to his gun skills, he is a samurai with a well honed blade who knows how to use it, as were all protagonists of that era.

It shows regularly I feel, Luke barely trained with a lightsaber yet with a relatively brief time of instruction with Yoda was able to stand up to Vader in a protracted fight, forcing him to take the battle seriously with intent to kill just to force his kid into a position where he would have no choice but to surrender. With further training he was able to absolutely dominate Vader, the Sith Lord couldn't even hold a candle to him in that duel. While there was very little flashy force capabilities in the first movie, Luke was just naturally lucky. Blaster Bolts wouldn't hit him, he navigated a danger zone as a untested rookie with training experience in a short amount of time and even through sheer intuition and fate avoided being killed with his Aunt and Uncle at the farm. Fate conspired to have Luke survive against all the odds, it just is a very soft way of showing it in comparison to the later movies who went to great lengths to show you "how much more special" those characters are.

5 minutes ago, LordBritish said:

Well thing is, whether or not he was considered trained, Luke is an exceptional pilot. He had never flown live against other pilots before and did very well in what was considered a very hostile environment. He might not have been green, but he was inexperienced and for someone completely new to the game of insurgencies? He was doing pretty well.

I think what has changed however is the Tropes that are employed in modern movies; people want to see evidence that the character is somehow exceptional. They want to see that "highly gifted child" fly a star fighter through an entire droid fleet and blow up a space station through a mixture of luck (which really, is the force bending circumstances if you think about it broadly) and ingrained skill, and furthermore won a pod race with a speeder he built, or that tough survivor adapting to various situations as she is relentlessly challenged in ways she is extremely poorly equipped to handle against someone who knows the force, so she learnt to use the tools her captor's use against him. These are blunt turma tropes used to establish that the character is highly capable heroic character that is inherently more capable then the people that surround them. Luke didn't really benefit from these tropes because he was from a very different era where main characters were expected to be heroic and effectively bulletproof, thus being such wasn't considered an exceptional quality no more then the Man with No Name in the westerns is an unstoppable force of nature. There is no magical quality to his gun skills, he is a samurai with a well honed blade who knows how to use it, as were all protagonists of that era.

It shows regularly I feel, Luke barely trained with a lightsaber yet with a relatively brief time of instruction with Yoda was able to stand up to Vader in a protracted fight, forcing him to take the battle seriously with intent to kill just to force his kid into a position where he would have no choice but to surrender. With further training he was able to absolutely dominate Vader, the Sith Lord couldn't even hold a candle to him in that duel. While there was very little flashy force capabilities in the first movie, Luke was just naturally lucky. Blaster Bolts wouldn't hit him, he navigated a danger zone as a untested rookie with training experience in a short amount of time and even through sheer intuition and fate avoided being killed with his Aunt and Uncle at the farm. Fate conspired to have Luke survive against all the odds, it just is a very soft way of showing it in comparison to the later movies who went to great lengths to show you "how much more special" those characters are.

It likely was several weeks. Remember The Falcon had to go from Hoth to Anoat to get to Besbin with no hyperspace. Which is also why Boba was able to tell Vader where Han was going which allowed Vader to get there first and set up their ambush. One can make significant lightsaber skill improvements in that time.

And that's not even taking into account any time dilution weirdness on Dagobah, cause of the vergence. Granted, probably not to the degree of Mortis, but Luke was probably on Dagobah for "longer" than Han and Leia were in the Falcon.

4 hours ago, Daeglan said:

It likely was several weeks. Remember The Falcon had to go from Hoth to Anoat to get to Besbin with no hyperspace. Which is also why Boba was able to tell Vader where Han was going which allowed Vader to get there first and set up their ambush. One can make significant lightsaber skill improvements in that time.

Not to derail this thread on a tangent topic, but this was one of the things about TJL that really irked me.

Yes, it was never "spelled out" or "confirmed" during ANH, ESB, or (to a lesser extent) ROTJ, but it was plausible that there was additional training/transit time built into the OT.

The sequel trilogy (*cough* TLJ *cough*)? "We have literally X hours (<3 days) until the fleet runs out of fuel" annnnnd apparently happens exactly on that timeline. No wiggle room.

11 hours ago, kmanweiss said:

You do realize that this isn't a very important factor right? I mean, I know how to drive a car, but that doesn't mean the US military is going to toss me into humvee and ship me off to Iran if I happen to wander into a military base the day we decide to invade them.

It's somewhat comical when you think about it. Hey, this farm kid with no training, combat experience, knowledge of our tactics, or formation flying experience, wants to join our impending battle against the greatest threat to our galaxy.

Are you insane? He'd be a liability! You want to give him one of our rare, valuable, incredibly important military aircraft on a whim?

Well, he flew a T16 alone in a desert a time or two, so you know, the controls are basically the same right?

Well why didn't you say so? Slap him in a cockpit and point him at the enemy!

This business about the controls of the two incom craft and the fighter pilot stuff is kind of a no-win, because it's just gonna go back and forth. But the combat sequences in battle of Yavin were supposed to be like WWII fighter pilots which were more like daredevils in some ways than the managers ***-engineers who are modern fighter pilots. Also they didn't have pilots coming out of their ears and Biggs spoke for him in that desperate situation where they were about to be annihilated. It was characterized as a suicide mission after all. An unused weapon is a useless one and all that.

It's only comical if you use the real military as your example and in a calm situation.

8 hours ago, LordBritish said:

Well thing is, whether or not he was considered trained, Luke is an exceptional pilot. He had never flown live against other pilots before and did very well in what was considered a very hostile environment. He might not have been green, but he was inexperienced and for someone completely new to the game of insurgencies? He was doing pretty well.

I think what has changed however is the Tropes that are employed in modern movies; people want to see evidence that the character is somehow exceptional. They want to see that "highly gifted child" fly a star fighter through an entire droid fleet and blow up a space station through a mixture of luck (which really, is the force bending circumstances if you think about it broadly) and ingrained skill, and furthermore won a pod race with a speeder he built, or that tough survivor adapting to various situations as she is relentlessly challenged in ways she is extremely poorly equipped to handle against someone who knows the force, so she learnt to use the tools her captor's use against him. These are blunt turma tropes used to establish that the character is highly capable heroic character that is inherently more capable then the people that surround them. Luke didn't really benefit from these tropes because he was from a very different era where main characters were expected to be heroic and effectively bulletproof, thus being such wasn't considered an exceptional quality no more then the Man with No Name in the westerns is an unstoppable force of nature. There is no magical quality to his gun skills, he is a samurai with a well honed blade who knows how to use it, as were all protagonists of that era.

It shows regularly I feel, Luke barely trained with a lightsaber yet with a relatively brief time of instruction with Yoda was able to stand up to Vader in a protracted fight, forcing him to take the battle seriously with intent to kill just to force his kid into a position where he would have no choice but to surrender. With further training he was able to absolutely dominate Vader, the Sith Lord couldn't even hold a candle to him in that duel. While there was very little flashy force capabilities in the first movie, Luke was just naturally lucky. Blaster Bolts wouldn't hit him, he navigated a danger zone as a untested rookie with training experience in a short amount of time and even through sheer intuition and fate avoided being killed with his Aunt and Uncle at the farm. Fate conspired to have Luke survive against all the odds, it just is a very soft way of showing it in comparison to the later movies who went to great lengths to show you "how much more special" those characters are.

I feel like this is an excellent analysis and I feel like it's a shame that it has to be so telegraphed all the time now when someone is Force Sensitive. It's not that I expect every FS to be low key to no key but I think the constant blatantly "lucky" kid who can obviously do things no one else can is tiresome. It's also part of the constant power creep where pulling a lightsaber to you from two feet away in the snow is lame.

5 hours ago, Dayham said:

And that's not even taking into account any time dilution weirdness on Dagobah, cause of the vergence. Granted, probably not to the degree of Mortis, but Luke was probably on Dagobah for "longer" than Han and Leia were in the Falcon.

I gotta say I didn't see this coming, but hey why not. Thank goodness those cartoons brought time travel and over-explanation of the Force where the original movies did not. Otherwise could not have Dr. Strange storylines in Star Wars.

4 hours ago, oneeyedmatt87 said:

Not to derail this thread on a tangent topic, but this was one of the things about TJL that really irked me.

Yes, it was never "spelled out" or "confirmed" during ANH, ESB, or (to a lesser extent) ROTJ, but it was plausible that there was additional training/transit time built into the OT.

The sequel trilogy (*cough* TLJ *cough*)? "We have literally X hours (<3 days) until the fleet runs out of fuel" annnnnd apparently happens exactly on that timeline. No wiggle room.

Yeah that whole thing... but it can be said that in the wiggle room there is some supposition that strikes me as a bit weird. Like Luke being on Dagobah for a year and it taking Han and the gang months of time to get to Bespin.

40 minutes ago, Archlyte said:

I think the constant blatantly "lucky" kid who can obviously do things no one else can is tires  om            e 

Luke can deflect blaster bolts with his eyes closed.