Are these guys made for each other? I dunno but I really like the idea on R4-P44 and just thinking of some interactions here with Ani and have some questions:

Is this a legit series of events:
Anakin executes a red maneuver and gets within range 1 of a target, in his front arc but not in his bullseye, he removes a stress with a force, then uses a force to barrel roll to get a ship in bullseye, the trigger r4-p44 to get a calculate, then take a focus action?

It works, but R4-P44 is better suited for Oddball in the Arc.

Anakin actually works amazingly well with Kenobi's R4 (R4-P17), because you perform a red maneuver, use the bonus action from R4 to boost or barrel roll if you need to catch someone in arc/BE, clear the stress with his ability, then get your normal action.

Or, if you lined it up right the first time, you can clear the stress, perform a FTC boost/roll, take a TL with P17 action, then focus for your action.

Edit: never mind.

30 minutes ago, SavouryRain said:

It works, but R4-P44 is better suited for Oddball in the Arc.

Anakin actually works amazingly well with Kenobi's R4 (R4-P17), because you perform a red maneuver, use the bonus action from R4 to boost or barrel roll if you need to catch someone in arc/BE, clear the stress with his ability, then get your normal action.

Don't think this works. The way the action que works is (1) trigger all effects and add them to the action que(b) start performing actions in que. By the time you start performing the actions (the P17 repo) the trigger window (after maneuver) is closed.

Nien/PA can do this because PA triggers sooner, before 'check difficulty'

51 minutes ago, prauxim said:

Don't think this works. The way the action que works is (1) trigger all effects and add them to the action que(b) start performing actions in que. By the time you start performing the actions (the P17 repo) the trigger window (after maneuver) is closed.

Nien/PA can do this because PA triggers sooner, before 'check difficulty'

Anakin and P17 have the same trigger, after fully executing a maneuver (P17 specifies a red maneuver while Anakin is simply a maneuver).

The action granted by P17 can be done while stressed, as per the card, so you: perform red maneuver -> get stress -> P17 and Anakin trigger -> choose to resolve P17 first allowing you to boost/roll -> resolve Anakin by determining if an enemy is at R1 in arc or anywhere in BE -> perform regular action

1 hour ago, prauxim said:

Don't think this works. The way the action que works is (1) trigger all effects and add them to the action que(b) start performing actions in que. By the time you start performing the actions (the P17 repo) the trigger window (after maneuver) is closed.

Nien/PA can do this because PA triggers sooner, before 'check difficulty'

I'd been under the assumption that it worked, and that a bunch of other folks thought it worked, too. Hrm.

I guess it's actually kind of similar to the old 1e questions around Snap Wexley and Flight Assist Astromech.

The question is thus: if you add Anakin's ability to the queue, when does it check for range and arc? Does it check range and arc when it attempts to resolve following the sequence of the queue, or does it check immediately? I guess "check immediately" isn't the right term, but rather "check before adding to the queue."

2 hours ago, Talonbane Cobra said:

Are these guys made for each other? I dunno but I really like the idea on R4-P44 and just thinking of some interactions here with Ani and have some questions:

Is this a legit series of events:
Anakin executes a red maneuver and gets within range 1 of a target, in his front arc but not in his bullseye, he removes a stress with a force, then uses a force to barrel roll to get a ship in bullseye, the trigger r4-p44 to get a calculate, then take a focus action?

It's all the same question. I'm inclined towards a Yes, but I think it could use more discussion. To put it in general terms,

When X, if Y, then Z.

Does "if Y" check at the time of "when X" or of "then Z"?

If it is the case that "if Y" checks when you attempt to resolve the ability in the queue, at the "then Z" moment, then it totally works. You can queue up Anakin, Fine-Tuned Controls, and R4-P44. If Anakin is at R1 but not with Bullseye, he can clear stress. If the stress is clear, Fine-Tuned Controls can allow a Barrel Roll or Boost action. If you've got bullseye, R4-P44 will assign you a Calculate token. Then, you'll get your normal action. I'll say, however, that using FTC to get a bullseye for no other reason than R4-P44's Calculate token, you're just trading a force for a calculate, at the cost of a droid slot and 5 points. If you've got another reason to get a bullseye specifically (say, Calibrated Laser Targeting), then there's value in that. Still, seems like a narrow case where it's useful, and I'd be more inclined to spend 4 points on an R2 Astromech for regen.

However, it's also possible that Anakin and R4-P44 don't check the "if Y" at the time of resolution, but at the "when X" moment-- the time when the ability would be added to the queue. In which case, unless you landed your maneuver with a bullseye, you won't be able to use R4-P44.

From a practical standpoint, I think it makes more sense to check "if Y" at "then Z." Checking "if Y" when adding an ability to the queue feels a little odd. Something doesn't sit well with me about checking range and arc, then doing some other ability, then resolving the ability with the range check--regardless of current range or arc. Seems like it'd be easier to get lost in the sequence.

4 hours ago, SavouryRain said:

Anakin and P17 have the same trigger, after fully executing a maneuver (P17 specifies a red maneuver while Anakin is simply a maneuver).

The action granted by P17 can be done while stressed, as per the card, so you: perform red maneuver -> get stress -> P17 and Anakin trigger -> choose to resolve P17 first allowing you to boost/roll -> resolve Anakin by determining if an enemy is at R1 in arc or anywhere in BE -> perform regular action 

Yeah I'm not debating the stress.

What I am saying is that by the time you do the repo, the timing for Anakin's ability is over.

RR 1.03 Ability Que " If a player has multiple abilities that triggered (past tense) from the same event, that player chooses the order that those abilities are added to the ability queue ."

Bold and parenthesis added by me. Note that its says "added to the que" and not "performed"

The ability que works like this:

1. Add the simultaneous things that triggered to the que in whatever order
2. Start executing those things

All triggers are qued at one time , then by the time you started resolving the first effect, the window to add to the que (for that specific timing) is over.

The ability que does allow new triggers to happen, but in all examples given the trigger is fully satisfied by some effect in the que (e.g. 'After you perform a BR, you may...')

This is the thing though. The trigger is "After you fully execute a manoeuvre" that's it.

The rest is for when you get to resolve them. So you check things like arcs and range as you resolve. If you didn't then you could end up triggering something like "if you are within range 1 gain an exta dice" for example. Barrell Roll to range 2 and still get your extra dice because you've added it to the stack already.

10 hours ago, prauxim said:

The ability queue works like this:

1. Add the simultaneous things that triggered to the que in whatever order
2. Start executing those things

All triggers are queued at one time , then by the time you started resolving the first effect, the window to add to the queue (for that specific timing) is over.

The ability queue does allow new triggers to happen, but in all examples given the trigger is fully satisfied by some effect in the queue (e.g. 'After you perform a BR, you may...')

I don't think anyone disputes this, either. Folks aren't trying to go back to the original trigger sometime after the effect. They want to queue everything up at once, then have the various abilities resolve in a beneficial order.

The question is when Anakin's ability will check range and arc: at time of addition to the queue, or when the ability occurs within the queue.

If range/arc are checked at time-of-resolution rather than time-of-addition-to-queue, you can add R4-P17 and Anakin to the queue in that order. First, you will resolve R4-P17 to move into a better position, then resolve Anakin to clear stress. This isn't adding new stuff to the queue, but resolving several abilities all added at the original timing window.

It is pretty clear from example #1 on page 20 of the RRG that conditions for abilities are checked only when they are resolved.

Both abilities went into the ability queue without any mention of whether there is a legal target for them to resolve on. Range is mentioned only when the ability is resolved.

3 hours ago, lordvorkon said:

It is pretty clear from example #1 on page 20 of the RRG that conditions for abilities are checked only when they are resolved.

Both abilities went into the ability queue without any mention of whether there is a legal target for them to resolve on. Range is mentioned only when the ability is resolved.

Don't get me wrong, I agree that Range/Arc should be checked at time of resolution.

However, Jake's text is pretty different from Anakin's. Jake is a simple "When X, you may do Z," with the range to a friendly ship being part of the Z step, clearly within the "may." Anakin is a "When X, if Y, you may Z," which is kind of different.

I think something in favor of checking conditions at resolution is that all actions essentially have an implicit "if you are not stressed" clause. Jake is a great example of that. You won't check for stress on the target until it attempts to resolve the focus action, rather than checking as Jake's ability enters the queue.

1 hour ago, theBitterFig said:

Don't get me wrong, I agree that Range/Arc should be checked at time of resolution.

However, Jake's text is pretty different from Anakin's. Jake is a simple "When X, you may do Z," with the range to a friendly ship being part of the Z step, clearly within the "may." Anakin is a "When X, if Y, you may Z," which is kind of different.

I think something in favor of checking conditions at resolution is that all actions essentially have an implicit "if you are not stressed" clause. Jake is a great example of that. You won't check for stress on the target until it attempts to resolve the focus action, rather than checking as Jake's ability enters the queue. 

I see what you're saying now, that the condition check may happen after. Sorry I skipped over your first big post, it breaks down the issue well.

My RAI attempt would be that "you may" is the divisor. E.g for Old-T and Jake, the range/arc check is after the may, so it definitely happens along with the effect. But for Anakin, its before, making it part of the trigger. Though I don't see anything that says definitively either way.

Unfortunately, of the 5 abilities in the Ability Que appendix examples, none have a pre-'you may' condition check. Is there any other ruling that provides precedent?

I don't see "if you aren't stressed" as precedent. Stress rules use the "cannot" term which kills the effect via golden rule.

While I lean towards checking later--only "when" being needed for an ability to enter a queue, not also "if--I'd be fine with either interpretation.

At least under the condition that this is something widely agreed upon by the community and judges. Like, if the loose affiliation of millionaires and billionaires and baby these are the days of miracle and wonder this is the long distance call marshals and judges said "we're checking the ifs at such-and-such a time" then that'd be great, however it was ruled. IMHO, it's best to be on the same page, rather than to have my preferred ruling. Of course, I'm hoping they'd see it my way.

A lot of it is just that I think it flows better to check a pre-"may" if statement like Anakin's at resolution rather than queue addition. Do the thing, queue everything you want to do up, then see how it shakes out. It feels odd to me to check range for something which is going into the queue later, resolve the first ability, then resolve the thing you checked for range on earlier. And it could still work even if you didn't have range anymore. It just sits wrong with me.

34 minutes ago, theBitterFig said:

It feels odd to me to check range for something which is going into the queue later, resolve the first ability, then resolve the thing you checked for range on earlier. And it could still work even if you didn't have range anymore. It just sits wrong with me.

Consider an ability like Saw's:

"While a damaged friendly ship at range 0-3 performs an attack, it may reroll 1 attack die."

Would you be okay saying that this has "triggered" and adding it to the que if the only damaged friendly ship is beyond range 3 of Saw?

Anakin's structure isn't exactly the same, but if range can be part of a trigger, then range can be part of a trigger. The que allows "multiple abilities that triggered" not "multiple abilities with the same timing"

1 hour ago, prauxim said:

Consider an ability like Saw's:

"While a damaged friendly ship at range 0-3 performs an attack, it may reroll 1 attack die."

Would you be okay saying that this has "triggered" and adding it to the que if the only damaged friendly ship is beyond range 3 of Saw?

Anakin's structure isn't exactly the same, but if range can be part of a trigger, then range can be part of a trigger. The que allows "multiple abilities that triggered" not "multiple abilities with the same timing"

I think this argument-by-counterexample just doesn't get anywhere.

I've tried to work it out, to reply honestly, but I don't think it makes any sense to compare the two abilities. I don't think it'd be that wrong to say that Wedge has "triggered" Saw by attempting to reroll a die and checking range, even if he's too far away. But I don't know if the queue frame makes sense for describing the Modify Dice steps. Does it make sense to describe checking Saw, then figuring out whether you want to spend a Lock, as a queue? Generally, I don't think folks are going to have to formally declare that they'll check Saw before maybe spending a Lock--you can just do it. And it's fine, because the game-state isn't changing.