I know this is nitpicking and rules lawyering to the nth degree, but it's always tickled my brain about how such a situation would be adjudicated... What happens if someone has technically deployed illegally, because their ship nubs are beyond Range 1 of their board edge? This can happen when someone measures from their board edge, out range 1, to the flat side of their ship. This leaves the nubs to extend a couple mm beyond Range 1. From a strict reading of the rules, this is an illegal deployment. At that point, do you as a player technically have the right to call a judge to verify deployment positions, and point out that your opponent's ship/s are not "entirely within Range 1?" And beyond that, what should the Judge's remedy for the situation be? Move the ships backwards until they fit? Remove all ships and redeploy? Do nothing but glare at the player who called for a judge in the first place?

Again, this is rules lawyering in the extreme, and not something I'd ever suggest doing in a game situation... but it's a peculiar situation, that I was wondering how you folks would handle.

Nubs don't count when measuring range. Rules ref, P11, Guides.

When placing forces, you supposed to place your ship within range 1. Per the RR, under within .. an object is within a specified range if the entirety of it is inside that range.

You would have to be VERY picky to try and call someone out on this. I have never had that happen before, but as a TO, I would just have them push the ship back until its within range 1. If they cannot do so without overlapping the ships then you start completely over.

2 hours ago, thespaceinvader said:

Nubs don't count when measuring range. Rules ref, P11, Guides.

Well, 1st off, Guides. I get we are used to calling them 'nubs' but they have an official term that can be referenced in the rules, so we should try to use it.

2nd. Place forces isn't a matter of range measurement. Its a matter of overlapping, which the guides do count for.

Range measurement is actually defined in the Rules Reference on pg 15.

Quote

* While measuring range to a ship, range is measured to the closest point of the ship’s base, not its ship token nor the miniature itself.
* While measuring range to a non-ship object, range is measured to the point of that object that is closest to the ship’s base.

IE, measuring range only happens when its measured between two objects. Not a board edge.

2 hours ago, shaunmerritt said:

but as a TO, I would just have them push the ship back until its within range 1

Agreed.

2 hours ago, shaunmerritt said:

If they cannot do so without overlapping the ships then you start completely over.

I just tested this and (correct me if im wrong) i do no believe it is possible to have a deployment where this can happen. At least, not where only the guides are overlapping past the range 1 board edge.

It’s really simple, if you feel like it’s wrong if someone’s “nubs” are past range 1, just politely ask them to move them back.

Problem solved. 👍🏼

Me personally don’t care if someone’s “nubs” are sticking out 😉

On 5/4/2019 at 1:54 AM, Lyianx said:

2nd. Place forces isn't a matter of range measurement. Its a matter of overlapping, which the guides do count for.

Range measurement is actually defined in the Rules Reference on pg 15.

IE, measuring range only happens when its measured between two objects. Not a board edge.

How is this overlapping and not measuring range?

How do you determune if something is within Range 1 if you do not measure?

You are neasuring distance between the ship and the board edge.

Ang Guides do not count when measuring range

So ut is very clear cut. The guides are ignored when setting up ships within range 1 of the board edge.

RR page 16 under Setup:

5. Place Forces: Players place their ships into the play area in initiative order from lowest to highest initiative, using player order as a tiebreaker.
Ships must be placed within range 1 of their player edge. When a ship with a turret arc indicator is placed, the player rotates the arc to select a standard arc. Each ship with a turret arc indicator may rotate its indicator when the ship is placed.

RR page 11 under Guides:

GUIDES
Each ship’s base has two pairs of guides, one pair on the front and one pair on the back. Some devices also have a pair of guides.
• Guides on a ship’s base are ignored only while measuring range or determining whether a ship is in an arc.

of course i find that to be insufficiently strict, but that's because i've found that strictness really gets my juices flowing.

what it actually means is that placing your ships with your guides outside range one of the board edge or even with the guides outside of the play area is perfectly legal.

setup has nothing to do with overlapping.

since determining if something is within a specific range is also meassuring range, the guides are ignored for that as well.

OP, I have similar worries even though they're probably nonsense. I've always wondered if my guides could make me lose if they're hanging off the edge of the map after I deploy (no other part of the ship base, just the guides). I'm afraid that someday I'll have them barely hanging over the edge and a particularly skeevy opponent will call me on it and try to get me thrown out. But I suspect I'm fine since you cannot flee except after performing a maneuver (though if any ship stops as its first maneuver, Mr. Skeevy could still throw a fit at the nubs then).

It's just hard when placing ships flush with the edge to make sure those guides aren't barely poking over the edge -- takes attentiveness to ensure I'm watching those tiny nubs instead of just lining up with the edge of the base.

But then, if I ever meet Mr. Skeevy at a tournament, I'm hoping everyone in the building unites to punch him unconscious and leave him facedown in a ditch somewhere, like any healthy society would. >:)

@Wazat this hypothetical Mr Skeevy would need the eyes of a hawk to spot your nubs hanging over the edge from the other side of the table. You'd also need to be ridiculously unlucky to catch this person at an event with a TO who is so uncompromising as to not just tell you to shuffle everything forward a few millimetres and play on.

I suspect you're fine.

@Wazat Well, strictly speaking..

From the Tourny rules

Quote

Ships must be placed within range 1 of their player edge

then, from the rules reference.

Quote

Within : An object is within a specified range if the entirety of it is inside that range.

So. If you take @StephenEsven side of "guides dont count" then the nubs hanging off the edge arn't an issue. If however, you take the side of practically everyone else, then the guides hanging over on deployment means the ship is not within range 1 of the edge, and thus, isnt a legal deployment anyway.

On 5/5/2019 at 2:35 AM, StephenEsven said:

How is this overlapping and not measuring range?

Read the last thing you quoted from me, and you'll have your answer.

4 hours ago, Lyianx said:

@Wazat Well, strictly speaking..

From the Tourny rules

then, from the rules reference.

So. If you take @StephenEsven side of "guides dont count" th  en the nubs hanging off the edge arn't an issue. If howev  er, you take the side of practically everyone else, then the guides hanging over on deployment means the ship is  not within range 1 of the edge, and thus, isnt a  legal deployment anyway.
 

Read the last thing you quoted from me, a   nd you'll h  ave your answ   er.

If the guides are hanging off the edge, the ship is outside the play area, range does not matter.

(And range measuring does not takes guides into account anyway.)

@Lyianx I did read what you wrote. But plrase back it up with references to the rules. Even though the rules state you meadure range between two objects it must also be how you measure range to the board edge. Otherwise you can't play a game of x-wing because you would not be able to place obstacles or set up ships. Because technically the rules do not cover measuring range to anything not classed as an object

35 minutes ago, StephenEsven said:

But plrase back it up with references to the rules. 

I did.. Several times. Everything i quoted is straight from the Rules Reference, which i stated.

38 minutes ago, StephenEsven said:

Because technically the rules do not cover measuring range to anything not classed as an object

That is correct. This is one of the things FFG just assumed we were smart enough to figure out what it meant, and not try to loophole exploit it. But this also falls into the communities unwritten rule of "do what the rules say, not what they dont say". Since the rules clearly define what range is (On RR page 15, since keep insisting im not referencing the rules)...

Quote

The range is the distance between two objects as measured by the range ruler.

It seems clear that when they say the guides are ignored while measuring range, this is what they mean. While judging the distance between two objects. The edge of the play area isnt an object, nor is the 'invisible line of range 1' for the starting area.

I'm honestly kind of baffled you are making such a massive stink about the starting zones and wanting to push that 1mm of guide beyond that range 1 barrier. While you are playing, knock your self out. Causally i seriously doubt your opponents will cause as much of a stink about it as you are. But in tournaments, my money is on TO's just telling you to move it back a bit, or dont play because "you dont know how to measure from the play edge".

I dont know why you think discussing how the rules are or are not written is a stink, as you call it. It is clear that we are not of the same opinion.

The OP was a technical question and I am simpmy expressing how I read the rules. You on the other hand think tjis is covered by the rules for o erlapping, and all I am asking it to point out where in the rules this is stated.

i have to admit i like this question quite a bit, since it's so insignificant and technical. it also proves that the rules are far from perfect.

my interpretation is this:

if you are to ignore the guides when measuring range, then if a ship is within a certain range, the guides of that ship can still be outside of that range, even though within range is specified as the ship having to be entirely within range.

strange. the case for the guides having to be inside range is just as strong, since the rules say that the entire object has to be within range.

still, i prefer ignoring the guides rather than counting them as a part of the object (ship) for determining whether a ship is within range, simply based on the fact that guides are ignored for range measurements.

this interpretation also let's you get rid of cases where you would have to make the players adjust their deployment and potentially cause overlap. overlapping shouldn't have anything to do with deployment. from a game play perspective, i also don't believe it makes that much of a difference if you put your ships with the guides beyond range one, but the rest of the ship within range one of the board edge, or with the guides outside of the play area.

also, i'd love to catch someone placing their guides outside of the play area and fortressing the first round, as this would make that ship flee.

2 hours ago, StephenEsven said:

You on the other hand think tjis is covered by the rules for o erlapping 

I suppose its not directly. All i did was provide references as to why it wasn't a range measurement, and thus the guides count as part of the base. So if its not that, and its not overlap, what would YOU call it? Forgive me for logically assuming it to be more of an overlap issue.

2 hours ago, StephenEsven said:

I am simpmy expressing how I read the rules

The tone of your posts says otherwise and feels more hostile. Given how it took you this long to specifically point out where you thought i wasn't referencing the rules. You are nit picking one very specific thing ive posted, and seemingly ignoring the rest of it, instead of reading it as a whole. So your responses come off as combative. What you want to hear is, "no, there is no, extremely specific rule, outlining the very specific situation in OP's post, so in that respect, you are not wrong". So there you are. Play how you want.

2 hours ago, meffo said:

overlapping shouldn't have anything to do with deployment

Boba Fett (Crew) begs to differ

5 hours ago, Lyianx said:

Boba Fett (Crew) begs to differ

of course, but that's special rules from a card ability and not the procedure outlined in the rules reference ("normal" deployment. woops! i just used a word that makes me puke a little in my mouth).

i do think it's quite relevant whether the guides count when determining if a ship is within a specific range or not, though, since it's actually a relevant mechanic. possibly even outside of deployment. and it's not clear at all.

Interestingly, the nubs matter when it comes to determining overlapping of an obstacle, but NOT when measuring range to said obstacle. Technically, only your nub could overlap an obstacle. That means you'd be simultaneously at Range 0 (per overlapping rules) and Range 1 (per range measuring rules).

The Heisenburg Nubcertainty Principle.

Since we are talking about guides. If I have 2 vulture droids side by side on a rock with open grappling struts and on my activation I try to rotate one but there is not enough room for the guides between the ships, does the rotating droid fail the maneuver?

10 hours ago, SILENT FURY said:

Since we are talking about guides. If I have 2 vulture droids side by side on a rock with open grappling struts and on my activation I try to rotate one but there is not enough room for the guides between the ships, does the rotating droid fail the maneuver?

Yes it fails, this was covered in another thread about rotating the U-Wing.