34 minutes ago, lunitic501 said:

Ahhh ok that makes sense, based off the RR you want more water terain then.

Water, quicksand, gopher colony, coils of rope, carelessly abandoned camo netting, anything that can turn an ankle but not a bullet. There’s a million ways to model it.

@Derrault What would be a list and general strategy you recommend for the T-47?

9 hours ago, Cleto0 said:

Well if AT-STs can win RPQs, People need to give the T-47 a chance. If I ever betray the Empire, I will run a T-47

Has an AT-ST list (or a GAVw) won an RPQ?

2 hours ago, Imperial Citizen said:

@Derrault What would be a list and general strategy you recommend for the T-47?

Like general principles for using cavalry?

Ideally place during deployment such that you can, if you so choose, get a shot off on a target round 1 (ie within range of two speed 3 movements plus range 3).

Best placement to conserve wounds and avoiding focused enemy fire is on a flank. This is one unit that benefits from a strung out enemy line; ie battle lines or Disarray.

If you can manage to engage enemy units consecutively (and from the side after maneuvering around their cover) it can usually soften them up so that they aren’t as threatening to the rest of the army.

It can’t capture points, so instead look for opportunities that are outside the typical movement range of alternative units.

Aside from opportunism, it can fly interference, giving an opponent a reason not to move up on the objectives, and to buy time for your forces to acquire them.

Two archetypes I’m toying with:

1) For Smash and Grab it provides a support vehicle that can reach Pathfinders/Jyn quickly enough to help engage anyone on approach. Note: I haven’t tried this, yet.

2) To run interference immediately in front of your army, reducing their output prior to your infantry getting involved (and reducing infantry attrition rates)

16 minutes ago, Derrault said:

1) For Smash and Grab it provides a support vehicle that can reach Pathfinders/Jyn quickly enough to help engage anyone on approach. Note: I haven’t tried this, yet.

Follow up questions, honest ones here.

1) What commander are you envisioning? I mean aside from Jyn because you're probably going to be out of command range unless

2) Are you running Long Comms or HQ?

3) If not and Jyn is your only commander how are you planning on getting that T-47 up for support?

4) What do you do if your opponent paper cuts you to death on round 1? (remember, if the enemy is in range, so are you)

For a smash and grab you've got to deploy your infiltrate units in early because of the restriction which means that the opponent knows they can focus them. And if they can focus them then you have to get them out quickly which ties up your early round activations.

1 hour ago, Zrob314 said:

Follow up questions, honest ones here.

1) What commander are you envisioning? I mean aside from Jyn because you're probably going to be out of command range unless

2) Are you running Long Comms or HQ?

3) If not and Jyn is your only commander how are you planning on getting that T-47 up for support?

4) What do you do if your opponent paper cuts you to death on round 1? (remember, if the enemy is in range, so are you)

For a smash and grab you've got to deploy your infiltrate units in early because of the restriction which means that the opponent knows they can focus them. And if they can focus them then you have to get them out quickly which ties up your early round activations.

For the paratrooper style, where it’s coming in to support the troops in place, Jyn is the choice, she’s best suited out of all the commanders to snatching an objective and running/playing hard to get. Besides, you want to activate your nimble units early to gain advantage from dodge.

For the version where the 47 is running interference, probably Leia, because of Bombardments use in softening up the enemy units first able to engage (and reduce their initial damage output).

In either case, I prefer Improvised Orders.

I haven’t written out the Jyn list, but very probably, yes. And, Improvised orders.

Re paper cuts: I’d try to position my units so that they can’t? Jyn with nimble on and heavy cover with 1+ suppression tokens is a nightmare to paper cut; Points allowing, I’d probably take the ORSJ on the 47, which is pretty much the same.

I agree, any objectives close to the enemy deployment zone require proper positioning to keep out of harms way prior to their activation...but, once they have it, that’s kind of the time to bug out (supplies) or just withdraw to cause problems for any enemy that tries to revert (vaporators). With something like key positions, probably best just to judiciously choose locations that make it difficult for an opponent to dislodge the Pathfinders, or engage in anything but a disadvantageous way.

18 minutes ago, Derrault said:

For the paratrooper style, where it’s coming in to support the troops in place, Jyn is the choice, she’s best suited out of all the commanders to snatching an objective and running/playing hard to get. Besides, you want to activate your nimble units early to gain advantage from dodge.

For the version where the 47 is running interference, probably Leia, because of Bombardments use in softening up the enemy units first able to engage (and reduce their initial damage output).

In either case, I prefer Improvised Orders.

I haven’t written out the Jyn list, but very probably, yes. And, Improvised orders.

Re paper cuts: I’d try to position my units so that they can’t? Jyn with nimble on and heavy cover with 1+ suppression tokens is a nightmare to paper cut; Points allowing, I’d probably take the ORSJ on the 47, which is pretty much the same.

I agree, any objectives close to the enemy deployment zone require proper positioning to keep out of harms way prior to their activation...but, once they have it, that’s kind of the time to bug out (supplies) or just withdraw to cause problems for any enemy that tries to revert (vaporators). With something like key positions, probably best just to judiciously choose locations that make it difficult for an opponent to dislodge the Pathfinders, or engage in anything but a disadvantageous way.

The paper cuts go on the T-47.

On 5/31/2019 at 3:40 PM, Derrault said:

it’s just pure unmitigated bile from the likes of @Senjius , @BigBadAndy , @colki . Who apparently get super hostile when their answers prove insufficient. How charming. 🙄

You just have described you.
You said that tournaments with a low number of games played did not matter. I gave you a lot of data from almost a hundred games between two leagues.

You said that did not matter without giving you the results from players with a T47. I gave you that also.

Trapped by your own requisites being delivered you began asking for the impossible like video recordings from every match (yep, I am sure everybody here keeps about 200 hours of their leagues recorded just for you to check it 🤣 )

On 5/31/2019 at 3:40 PM, Derrault said:

I’m simply agnostic about the T47

Well, at least you are (slowly) beginning to process the facts. At the beginning of your speech the T47 was OP and now you are just agnostic about it. Maybe next year you will discover why snipers are a good unit in the meta and why the T47 is not in that place.

Good luck

10 hours ago, Zrob314 said:

The paper cuts go on the T-47.

You do not understand. He can "outmanoeuvre" you denying your cover (any kind), shoot at you with his range 3 guns but you cannot shoot it back with your range 4 DLTs because reasons.

It is not like the vector of approach could be spotted from miles away... 🙄

But it is OK, sure, bringing that T47 is going to cost the activation advantage but the T47 is going to shoot last without any retaliation at all. Because it is dope I suppose.

44 minutes ago, Senjius said:

You just have described you.
You said that tournaments with a low number of games played did not matter. I gave you a lot of data from almost a hundred games between two leagues.

You said that did not matter without giving you the results from players with a T47. I gave you that also.

Trapped by your own requisites being delivered you began asking for the impossible like video recordings from every match (yep, I am sure everybody here keeps about 200 hours of their leagues recorded just for you to check it 🤣 )

Well, at least you are (slowly) beginning to process the facts. At the beginning of your speech the T47 was OP and now you are just agnostic about it. Maybe next year you will discover why snipers are a good unit in the meta and why the T47 is not in that place.

Good luck

Not really.

The T-47 is simply untested in a tournament setting. It’s an unknown as to whether it performs well or not in those settings. If you want a purely comparative analysis, it’s plainly got better features than some units that are lauded (aka Luke). The word agnostic means that one hasn’t made a determination; it denotes acknowledging uncertainty.

If you bother to read any of my posts that you’ve quoted, I’ve been unflinchingly polite in the face of, well, you.

I said there are not enough total recorded games, to provide a high confidence. Similarly, we have just two reported lost examples out of over 100; and only fragmentary data for those.

40 minutes ago, Senjius said:

You do not understand. He can "outmanoeuvre" you denying your cover (any kind), shoot at you with his range 3 guns but you cannot shoot it back with your range 4 DLTs because reasons.

It is not like the vector of approach could be spotted from miles away... 🙄

But it is OK, sure, bringing that T47 is going to cost the activation advantage but the T47 is going to shoot last without any retaliation at all. Because it is dope I suppose.

Outmaneuver. And with a move/shoot distance of 4 feet, there’s not a lot to be done about that.

A single DLT has to get hits on both dice to get harm through; they average 1.75; 1 removed by cover 1; then .75 converts. That then goes through 2/3 times, or .5 damage. OooOoooOo. So scary.

edit: with ORSJ, it relies on crits; .1667 damage per activation. That’s a waste of an activation.

13 hours ago, Derrault said:

Has an AT-ST list (or a GAVw) won an RPQ?

yes

@Senjius

Just ignore him. No point in arguing with someone who hasn't played before.

39 minutes ago, thepopemobile100 said:

@Senjius

Just ignore him. No point in arguing with someone who hasn't played before.

Typical board troll.

1 hour ago, Derrault said:

Outmaneuver  .

The most helpful thing you have ever posted. Thanks (no sarcasm, I swear I am really trying to improve my english).

1 hour ago, Derrault said:

The word agnostic means that one hasn’t made a determination; it denotes acknowledging uncertainty.

Yep, that I knew (but thank you anyway). Also you did not appear to be agnostic about the T47 in any way at the beginning of the post.

Quote

I’ve been unflinchingly polite in the face of, well, you.

Hey, I see you trolling, at least I am laughing back.

Quote

it’s plainly got better features than some units that are lauded (aka Luke).

Totally true. But remember, the bikes have movement 3 also. Having better features than some unit does not make it better at all.

Quote

I said  there are not enoug  h total re  corded games

Well, that is a fact that applies only to you. I have watched/played more than enough games (not recorded though) with the T47 involved so I suggest you do the same if you find yourself lacking knowledge about the speeder.

Quote

And with a move/shoot distance of 4 feet  , there’s not a lot to be done about that. 

I am afraid you are so wrong here. You can do a lot if you know the initial position of the speeder.

Quote

A single DLT has to get hits on both dice to get harm through; they average 1.75; 1 removed by cover 1; then .75 converts. That then goes through 2/3 times, or .5 damage. OooOoooOo. So scary.

Who talked about a single DLT? At least you are going to have a pair of extra activations so even in your "safe round" you are going to get shot. How about a pair of stormtrooper units?

That´ s just 0.875 crits and 2.75 hits. Then you get one aim token (or two, who knows if Veers is around). Counting the aim token you reroll 3 dice and get a total of 1.250 crits and more than 3 hits (so you ignore the cover 1 or 2 of the speeder or if you lose a trooper or 2 you still have enough guys to use "Impact 1"). So nop, after armor and defending you get more than 0.5 wounds. More like 3-4 wounds with a pair of DLT. And that is with a pair of squads. We better not talk about the next round when you are just in the middle of the fray. And all that counting that is a low priority target due to its lack of attacking power which is meh at best for its cost. But all this has been written down in this post once and twice and... n times. So yes, I think you are deliberate ignoring the data you do not like or simply trolling.

Until next time!

A few hundred is still statistically insignificant. Also there's nothing resembling a control group. You'd need thousands of 800 point games apiece where one side had a T-47, where both sides had a T-47, one side had two T-47's, both sides had two T-47's, thousands of 1600 point games where one side had a T-47, etc. etc. Ideally you would record the amount and type of scenery used, and record all the army lists. Then you'd want several dozen fully recorded case studies where people of roughly equal experience play games with and without it on each side.

@Cleto0
Ah nice, it's always good to see variety.

@Senjius
"The most helpful thing you have ever posted. Thanks (no sarcasm, I swear I am really trying to improve my english)."
"Yep, that I knew (but thank you anyway). Also you did not appear to be agnostic about the T47 in any way at the beginning of the post."
"Hey, I see you trolling, at least I am laughing back."

You're welcome.

Let me set you straight, I was pushing back against an evidence free claim that something was so. Being in favor of fact-based statements isn't actually taking a position for or against any given theory.

Since you're still learning, you should know that your phrasing, so far, has been rude enough to the point that, if you treated someone that way in person, you'd probably get ostracized for it. Many languages have words and idioms where the meaning changes dramatically based on intonation; with English some combinations of words/statements are considered loaded. Meaning, if you use them, you're imputing something you might not have intended. You might not understand this, but baseless charges of trolling, for example, are considered pointlessly inflammatory, and an attempt to get a rise out of someone, an ad hominem; not a joke.

@Senjius
"Totally true. But remember, the bikes have movement 3 also. Having better features than some unit does not make it better at all."

The Rebel faction does not have access to 74z Speeder Bikes. There's no opportunity cost between the two units, and no other Rebel unit is as fast (thanks to the huge base/compulsory/speed3).

@Senjius
"Well, that is a fact that applies only to you. I have watched/played more than enough games (not recorded though) with the T47 involved so I suggest you do the same if you find yourself lacking knowledge about the speeder."

Did you want to cite those records or just keep them to yourself? It's not present in the LVO/Adepticon/Invader League data.

@Senjius
"I am afraid you are so wrong here. You can do a lot if you know the initial position of the speeder."

Like what, exactly? I suppose you could try to run away and have the entire army be out of range...but that only works if every possible target is 4 feet or more away. If a player wants the Speeder to come at a unit, it's pretty much a fait accompli because of that reach.

@Senjius
"Who talked about a single DLT?"

@Senjius
"shoot at you with his range 3 guns but you cannot shoot it back with your range 4 DLTs because reasons."

You did.

@Senjius
"At least you are going to have a pair of extra activations so even in your "safe round" you are going to get shot. How about a pair of stormtrooper units? 

That´ s just 0.875 crits and 2.75 hits. Then you get one aim token (or two, who knows if Veers is around). Counting the aim token you reroll 3 dice and get a total of 1.250 crits and more than 3 hits (so you ignore the cover 1 or 2 of the speeder or if you lose a trooper or 2 you still have enough guys to use "Impact 1"). So nop, after armor and defending you get more than 0.5 wounds. More like 3-4 wounds with a pair of DLT. And that is with a pair of squads. We better not talk about the next round when you are just in the middle of the fray. And all that counting that is a low priority target due to its lack of attacking power which is meh at best for its cost. But all this has been written down in this post once and twice and... n times. So yes, I think you are deliberate ignoring the data you do not like or simply trolling."

Ok, bully for activations? They're only useful if they 'do' something, otherwise that's wasted points. Getting to fire first is a base line advantage because of the ability to attrit enemy return fire. So, if the 47 activates before a target, they (potentially) eliminate or seriously degrade a target before it can do anything in return.

Just based on averages, it's far more plausible that an isolated stormtrooper unit gets eliminated (removing activation "advantage") in the first few rounds than that it does anything significant to a 47. Isolation is also why I posited that the best use for the 47 is to roll up the enemy flank, preferably for objectives where the enemy must spread out a bit, and cannot bring all their forces to bear. Also, if Veers were close enough, and there's no other priority target, I'd probably consider targeting him in order to eliminate the command cards.

Yes, the unharmed stormtrooper squad nets 1.5 wounds on average (3 for two squads, not 4). So that's an average of 5 unwounded attacks with aim before destroying a 47. And at that point you're committing 158 points of units over two/three activations and 4/6 actions to achieve superficial damage, which may not even be possible depending on the 2nd/3rd activations for the 47's side.

14 hours ago, TauntaunScout said:

A few hundred is still statistically insignificant. Also there's nothing resembling a control group. You'd need thousands of 800 point games apiece where one side had a T-47, where both sides had a T-47, one side had two T-47's, both sides had two T-47's, thousands of 1600 point games where one side had a T-47, etc. etc. Ideally you would record the amount and type of scenery used, and record all the army lists. Then you'd want several dozen fully recorded case studies where people of roughly equal experience play games with and without it on each side.

By this standard, you can say sniper strike teams are not good performers because hundreds of games are statistically insignificant to support that statement. 🙄

28 minutes ago, Irokenics said:

By this standard, you can say sniper strike teams are not good performers because hundreds of games are statistically insignificant to support that statement. 🙄

Are they any good anyway compare to saboteurs ?

I know my point of view on the questions.

5 hours ago, Irokenics said:

By this standard, you can say sniper strike teams are not good performers because hundreds of games are statistically insignificant to support that statement. 🙄

No, you can't say that. Based on that standard.

18 hours ago, Irokenics said:

By this standard, you can say sniper strike teams are not good performers because hundreds of games are statistically insignificant to support that statement. 🙄

No, @TauntaunScout is correct; you can’t say one way or the other if sniper teams are actually good performers.

So neither the statement that they are good or bad is supported.

If you wanted to say they are good or bad on some basis, like, their average damage is egregiously bad for their point investment, well that’s at least mathematically demonstrable absent any performance data.

16 hours ago, Derrault said:

No, @TauntaunScout is correct; you can’t say one way or the other if sniper teams are actually good performers.

So neither the statement that they are good or bad is supported.

If you wanted to say they are good or bad on some basis, like, their average damage is egregiously bad for their point investment, well that’s at least mathematically demonstrable absent any performance data.

T-47 damage and survivability is egregiously bad for the point investment, especially vs. red saves and better.

Any model >90 points without pierce in the game of Legion better have a **** good reason for being on the table to be worth the cost.

There's also the factor that the T-47, while also being terribly inefficient, also reduces your activation count, which is a major factor in high level competitive play in Legion. Snipers, on the other hand, are incredibly durable, efficient, and increase your activation count significantly.

tl;dr - The T-47 is terrible and snipers are amazing.

17 hours ago, Derrault said:

their average damage is egregiously bad for their point investment, well that’s at least mathematically demonstrable absent any performance data.

So both imperial and rebel snipers are 1 damage average per shot.

You can field a sniper strike team for 44 points.

Shooting snipers at armor is often a fools errand, but shooting it against softer targets is not.

The unit has sharpshooter 1 so it's target has to be in heavy cover to get any benefit and it has pierce 1 so if the target does not have armor that 1 average damage per turn is going to go through.

However.....if you do believe that the damage on a sniper is "egregiously bad for their point investment" I'd suggest you have a look at this:

The columns are: Weapon, average damage with no cover, light cover, heavy cover and point cost per damage with no cover.

So....which is it?

@Hoffburger :
Snipers are the single most fragile unit in the game, bar none. (only 2 wounds with a white surge save averages 3 hits to get wiped off the board).
44 points per damage with a unit that fragile? Yeah, not great.

@Zrob314
Yeah, I agree the 1 damage goes through on targets without cover. The problem is that just 1 average damage per shot means they average 6 wounds per game. That's enough to kill a single unit not in cover, which is very low damage potential. (I think only the Rebel Officer has it worse, with no pierce and also averaging 1 hit with sharpshooter 1).

Even though the bare 47's efficiency per point is a marginal 2 points less than the strike team, the significantly higher damage cap mean it has the opportunity to swing games by deleting units and swing games.

The table's math isn't accurate for the combined values:
2 + 3.75 = 5.75; so the points per average damage with a buzzer is 195/5.75 = 33.91304347826087

Harpoon would be 40.6667 (so, still more efficient per point than the snipers, albeit mostly only effective on units in the open / vehicles)

8 minutes ago, Derrault said:

@Hoffburger :
Snipers are the single most fragile unit in the game, bar none. (only 2 wounds with a white surge save averages 3 hits to get wiped off the board).
44 points per damage with a unit that fragile? Yeah, not great.

You have clearly never played the game or, at the very least, have never played the game at a high skill level if you actually believe this statement. You can hide your ineptitude as much as you want with big words and numbers, but comments like the above quote are clear evidence to anyone with a modicum of skill and experience with competitive Legion that you don't know what you're talking about. Please actually try to play the game at a high level before leading people astray who don't know any better.

At this point I'm convinced you are either a massive troll or a poster child for the Dunning-Krueger effect.

Been following this thread for comedic value since the start. I need to stop before I have an aneurysm.

10 minutes ago, Hoffburger said:

you are... a massive troll 

Wasn't this obvious 8 pages ago?

13 minutes ago, Hoffburger said:

You have clearly never played the game or, at the very least, have never played the game at a high skill level if you actually believe this statement. You can hide your ineptitude as much as you want with big words and numbers, but comments like the above quote are clear evidence to anyone with a modicum of skill and experience with competitive Legion that you don't know what you're talking about. Please actually try to play the game at a high level before leading people astray who don't know any better.

At this point I'm convinced you are either a massive troll or a poster child for the Dunning-Krueger effect.

It’s (fairly simple) math. What fact is confusing you?

The fact that 2 wounds on a white surge die (blocks 1/3 of the time) = 3 effective wounds?

Or is it the low expected damage? Also, very easy to calculate.