1 hour ago, flightmaster101 said:

TBH I'm kinda amazed something with 3 black, 3 red and impact 3 "lacks firepower". Firepower per cost I can see, and impact doesn't mean much when 'nobody' uses vehicles. I really dig the idea of blast to help in the infantry heavy meta.

It's not that amazing if you consider that you're spending 1/4 of your points to kill 2 Stormtroopers per turn.

30 minutes ago, arnoldrew said:

It's not that amazing if you consider that you're spending 1/4 of your points to kill 2 Stormtroopers per turn.

Maybe Stormtroopers shouldn't be your priority targets?

Veers does not like having a T-47 pay attention to him. Someone else said they were good at taking out Boba Fett (don't feel like looking up the post). Sounds like they are better character hunters than troop hunters.

I think that the T-47 is an iconic unit, which was important at release. Perhaps vehicles were more prevalent in development than they have been in the competitive environment since release. Let's face it, developers aren't trying to build the "most efficient list", they are trying to test things against each other to see how they work.

I really wish they had gone the route of X-Wing 2.0 and left the points off the cards, but they didn't, so we have what we have.

35 minutes ago, arnoldrew said:

It's not that amazing if you  consider that you're spen  ding 1/4 of your points to  kill 2 Stormtroopers per tu  rn.

Rebels don't always play imperials.

2 minutes ago, flightmaster101 said:

Rebels don't always play imperials.

So? Rebels are defensively weaker than the Empire. Anything that does well against Imperial units will also do better against Rebel Units.

1 minute ago, thepopemobile100 said:

So? Rebels are defensively weaker than the Empire. An  ything that does well agains  t Imperial un  its will also do better against Rebel Units. 

So rebels are unplayable by definition then. If the game is balanced ONLY as rebels vs imperials and not for mirror matches that means no one playing rebels has any hope against another rebel list meant to kill imperials. I really hope that's not the case.

16 minutes ago, NeonWolf said:

I really wish  they had gone the  route of X-Wing 2.0 and left  the points off the cards, but they didn't  , so we  have what we have.

Yup

33 minutes ago, flightmaster101 said:

So rebels are unplayable by definition then. If the game is balanced ONLY as rebels vs imperials and not for mirror matches that means no one playing rebels has any hope against another rebel list meant to kill imperials. I really hope that's not the case.

It isn't. Rebel units as a whole tend to have a higher damage output when compared to imperial units, but worse defense. In the rebel vs rebel games I have played they end up being a bloodbath due to a combination of bad defense and good offense.

What I meant with my initial statement is that it doesn't mean anything to say that a unit that has difficulty killing stormtroopers will do more damage to rebel troopers because every unit in the game will take out more rebel troops on average than stormtroopers.

1 hour ago, flightmaster101 said:

Rebels don't always play imperials.

They do when I'm playing.

1 hour ago, NeonWolf said:

I really wish they had gone the route of X-Wing 2.0 and left the points off the cards, but they didn't, so we have what we have.

I would not buy a game isn't playable without an app.

1 minute ago, TauntaunScout said:

I would not buy a game isn't playable without an app.

X-Wing does not require an app. They publish the points via PDF on the product page. The app just makes list-building easier than doing it by hand on a piece of paper.

3 minutes ago, NeonWolf said:

X-Wing does not require an app. They publish the points via PDF on the product page. The app just makes list-building easier than doing it by hand on a piece of paper.

I still perfer points on the cards. Ive some cards have different point value for the same card which is kinda irritating to me.

9 hours ago, DarkTrooperZero said:

Drop it's cost by 20-30 and it's all apples and peaches

Did anyone ever test what happens if you drop the points for AT-ST and Airspeeder by 20-25%? I mean there are so many posts suggesting it as easiest and most honest solution. Why don't try that in casual games? Or did you already?

56 minutes ago, NeonWolf said:

X-Wing does not require an app. They publish the points via PDF on the product page. The app just makes list-building easier than doing it by hand on a piece of paper.

Same diff. I don't want to buy minis rules that don't work during a daytime power outage.

41 minutes ago, TauntaunScout said:

Same diff. I don't want to buy minis rules that don't work during a daytim  e power outage.

Couldn't you make the same augment about the online RRG?

Also to bring it back around, do people feel the AT-ST isnt lethal enough b/c it doesn't surge to hit as well? I think the new first sergeant helps with his move and get an aim ability, but does the lethatliy or lack thereof, of the AT-ST put it in the same boat? Becasue I havent seen nearly as much hate for the AT-ST as I have for the T-47.

29 minutes ago, flightmaster101 said:

Also to bring it back around, do people feel the AT-ST isnt lethal enough b/c it doesn't surge to hit as well? I think the new first sergeant helps with his move and get an aim ability, but does the lethatliy or lack thereof, of the AT-ST put it in the same boat? Becasue I havent seen nearly as much hate for the AT-ST as I have for the T-47.

The AT-ST has multiple weapon upgrades and the pilot (Weiss) lets you use all 4 weapons at once. There is a grenade launcher that adds Blast , the mortar is long range and Suppressive , and the cannon is a "baby" version of the main gun adding more Impact . Granted, you can't use all 4 at the same range, but with Arsenal you don't have to.

With the T-47 you are paying points for Arsenal but your weapons face different directions, so you can't bring them to bear on the same target like you can with the AT-ST. The "Ground Buzzer" is 20 points for 4 Black dice, and we've already discussed how often black dice will blank out on you. The Harpoon is significantly cheaper, but is still a single die with a 75% chance to hit, if it isn't cancelled by Cover or Dodge , or just outright avoided by an armor save. If you do hit you are doing a single point of damage and getting to rotate the target 90 degrees. It could, arguably, be useful but is still very situational.

@flightmaster101

The 47 has always been playable. It's a hard target with great offense. If you plan to use it, it should pretty much always be the tip of the spear, sucking up damage that would have annihilated corps units.

@NeonWolf
"The issue with the dice is the lack of surge. That makes the black dice 1/2 (4/8) and the red dice are 5/8 for hits. The compulsory move makes it arguably easier to take an Aim before Attacking, but having only played Rebels from the release of the game I can tell you that Black dice are not to be trusted and seem to blank out as often as White dice.

Yes, I realize the "maths" say different but you aren't rolling enough sets in a single game to reach statistical averages. Also, if you don't think an Aim is worth it, talk to an Imperial player....

If you are going for a purely competitive list, the T-47 won't make the cut. Too many points for not enough effect. If you are playing a non-competitive game then the T-47 can be very cinematic and fun. I've had one completely turn a game around with hot dice."

I mean, the T-47 has more basidc offense power than the AT-ST, and for 20 fewer points. Spend those 20 points for a tailgun and you get up to 5.75 average damage per activation. (Max of 10 damage total)

Side by Side comparison:

AT-ST (Armor; Arsenal 2; Weak Point 1: Rear; Speed 2) - 195 points: 3 average + Impact 3 (range 1-4);
20 points: 1.5 average + impact 1 (range 1-3);
15 points: 1 average + blast (range 1-2);
10 points: .75 average + suppressive (range 4+)

T-47 (Armor; Arsenal 2; Cover 1; Immune: Blast, Melee; Speeder 2; Speed 3) - 175 points: 3.75 average + Impact 3 (range 1-3);
20 points: 2 average (range 1-2)

Here's some other vehicle comparisons:

GAVw (Armor; Arsenal 2; Weak Point 1: Sides; Speed 1) - 155 points: 2.5 average + Impact 2 (range 1-4); 1.25 average (range 1-2); (combined 3.75 at range 2)
Pindle weapons: 1.5 average

X-34 Landspeeder (Armor 2; Arsenal 3; Cover 1; Speeder 1; Speed 2) - 75 points: .75 average (range 1-2)
9 points: .75 average (range 1-3)
36 points: 1.875 average + Impact 2 (range 2-4)
34 points: 2.5 average (range 1-4)
38 points: 2.125 average + Impact 1 + Ion 1 (range 1-4)
(max value: 5.125)

74-Z Speeder Bikes (Cover 1; Speeder 1; Speed 3) - 90 points: 3.75 average (range 1-3)

AT-RT (Armor; Climbing Vehicle; Expert Climber; Speed 2) - 55 points: .75 average (range 1-3);
25 points: 1.25 average per target mini (Spray) + Blast (range 1)
30 points: 3.125 average (range 1-3)
35 points: 2.125 average + Impact 3 (range 2-4)

The 47 combines the best features of the Speeder Bikes and AT-RT for offense, defense, and maneuverability.
If the 47 is somehow deemed too expensive, than the AT-ST truly is "unplayable" as well, being more expensive with worse defense, worse offense, and worse maneuverability.

6 hours ago, flightmaster101 said:

TBH I'm kinda amazed something with 3 black, 3 red and impact 3 "lacks firepower". Firepower per cost I can see, and impact doesn't mean much when 'nobody' uses vehicles. I really dig the idea of blast to help in the infantry heavy meta.

Well 3 red and 3 black without surge. It's about the same firepower as a 62p z-6 squad. 3.75 vs 3.5 hits.

The impact is nice, however 2 laser cannon at-rt cost about the same as the airspeeder with cover pilot and does even more Impact dmg with surge-crit.

Maybe a command card that gives the airspeeder an extra attack could give it a role as tank-hunter.

2 hours ago, TauntaunScout said:

Same diff. I don't want to buy minis rules that don't work during a daytime power outage.

Paper doesn't require power. They update points less often than Legion updates the RRG.

@Derrault I'm not arguing how it looks on paper, I'm just saying that in practice it isn't as effective as it appears it should be. Like I said, in a standard game of Legion you can't use statistical analysis as anything other than a guideline since you aren't rolling enough dice to reach those averages. You will see "all blanks", "all hits", etc more often than the statistics would indicate.

Don't get me wrong, I picked Rebels almost solely because they had the T-47 at release. I want that thing to be on the table and I want it to work. I've had games (in the first 6 months after release) where a T-47 was the MVP unit. I've also had games where I wished I had invested those points elsewhere.

Overall, it's a fun, thematic vehicle in a Star Wars miniatures game. I'll probably run one, if not two, at a local tournament in two weeks, just because I want to. Will I win, possibly, but I'll get to put a unit on the table that was part of the reason I bought into this game.

What if the Hard point upgrades could shoot from the 'Sides' as well?

(physically speaking, they look like they could traverse through that range of movement)

And if that's not enough, what if they were simply not 'Fixed' at all??

3 hours ago, jocke01 said:

Well 3 red and 3 black without surge. It's about the same firepower as a 62p z-6 squad. 3.75 vs 3.5 hits.

The impact is nice, however 2 laser cannon at-rt cost about the same as the airspeeder with cover pilot and does even more Impact dmg with surge-crit.

Maybe a command card that gives the airspeeder an extra attack could give it a role as tank-hunter.

The key difference is that the airspeeder has vastly greater maneuverability and durability (above and beyond dealing more damage in a single pool, which is also fairly important against cover/dodge).

Yes, the corps firepower potentially starts at equivalent levels, but they also suffer damage at far greater rates, and a decline in offense too. Two AT-RTs might have more impact, but they split their 6 dice between two activations (and thus suffer cover effects twice over!)

Aaaand that guys chimed in, end of thread the T47 is absolutely amazing everyone.

6 hours ago, Derrault said:

The key difference is that the airspeeder has vastly greater maneuverability and durability (above and beyond dealing more damage in a single pool, which is also fairly important against cover/dodge).

Yes, the corps firepower potentially starts at equivalent levels, but they also suffer damage at far greater rates, and a decline in offense too. Two AT-RTs might have more impact, but they split their 6 dice between two activations (and thus suffer cover effects twice over!)

It has better durability than one squad, but for the same points you can get 3 squads.

Yeah the at-rt does suffer from cover twice, however vehicles like the at-st have a hard time staying in cover

3 hours ago, jocke01 said:

It has better durability than one squad, but for the same points you can get 3 squads.

Yeah the at-rt does suffer from cover twice, however vehicles like the at-st have a hard time staying in cover

It has better durability than approximately 3 squads, thanks to armor and innate cover (cover 2? Forget it). And that’s without taking into account that enemy trooper units will attrit, reducing their damage output.

Right, the cover was a reference to their utility vs troopers, which is significantly degraded by using the laser cannon. An AT-ST absolutely murders RTs at equal range, so I wouldn’t worry about 2.

1 hour ago, Derrault said:

It has better durability than approximately 3 squads, thanks to armor and innate cover (cover 2? Forget it). And that’s without taking into account that enemy trooper units will attrit, reducing their damage output.

Right, the cover was a reference to their utility vs troopers, which is significantly degraded by using the laser cannon. An AT-ST absolutely murders RTs at equal range, so I wouldn’t worry about 2.

I don't know if 15 wounds vs 7 and armor is equal or one is more durable. Then you gotta take in to account cover and treshold. I can concede the durability, but firepower and 3 activations that can hold objektives is a point for the troopers.

My overall point is that the airspeeder dosen't have a clear battlefield role that other units can't do as well or better while costing less points and gives more activations. Durability is nice, but when you can't hold objectives I don't know if that alone makes the airspeeder worth taking.

I Love the model and I try to make it work, however the games I won with a speeder I Always feel I won despite and not thanks to the speeder. When I lose, I would gladly taken more troops, more activations or Luke.

On 5/2/2019 at 1:41 AM, flightmaster101 said:

Does anyone think the new pilots will make the T-47 "playable" and if not what do you think it will take to make the T-47 playable?