I've played a lot of Vennie bomber, with Paige and VTG. The interation of allowing you to primary arc, then rotate to a double tap, then rotate back to bow tie after performing the primary turret attack made him a potent force.

However at the recent UK system open, a judge call was made that Paige can only trigger once (Either to rotate arc, or drop bombs). I can't understand this ruling as it seems clear through reading the cards that the ability should trigger on each shot.

The card for reference is:

"After you perform a primary attack, you may drop 1 bomb or rotate your (Turret) After you are destroyed, you may drop 1 bomb."

*Edit*

At UK nationals, I went armed with all relevant rules and the Marshall confirmed that it worked as we thought. The confusion was caused by a player trying to rotate the turret 180 degrees to double tap out the same side arc. (Which is not allowed)

Yeah, the judge was wrong.

indeed. it's an opportunity after each attack. you cannot both drop a bomb and rotate the arc at the same opportunity, though.

according to the RR under "Attack" on pages four and five, the abiliy trigger during the aftermath of the first attack, then the bonus attack triggers. paiges ability then triggers again during the aftermath of the bonus attack.

1 hour ago, meffo said:

you cannot both drop a bomb and rotate the arc at the same opportunity, though.

This. It depends what the 'only once' ruling actually was - Paige can trigger on each of multiple attacks as long as they're all primary attacks, but she can't do both options in a single trigger.

rotating multiple times is fine as long as only one of the rotations is a rotate action.

I suspect the judge may have made the incorrect assumption that Paige allowed a rotate action . It's about the only way I can see to end up ruling that it only works once.

1 hour ago, DR4CO said:

I suspect the judge may have made the incorrect assumption that Paige allowed a rotate action . It's about the only way I can see to end up ruling that it only works once.

I think that's definetely it.

I'm going to try to get the justification from the judging team and will post it here when I do.

10 hours ago, DR4CO said:

I suspect the judge may have made the incorrect assumption that Paige allowed a rotate action . It's about the only way I can see to end up ruling that it only works once.

I can actually see a few others:

1) Only one Bonus attack is allowed per round (RR, pg 6, Bonus Attack). VTG is explicitly a bonus attack and so you could only use that once, no matter how many times you rotate your arc.

2) If a ship rotates a double turret arc indicator, it must select the other two standard arcs it was not already selecting (RR, pg 16, Rotate). If the double turret starts off pointing to the sides and then gets rotated to front and back, the judge might have used this rule to prevent rotating the turret back to the sides.

3) VTG also says it's a turret attack and doesn't explicitly say a primary attack, so I could see that as justification for not allowing Paige to trigger off of VTG.

2. They are separate rotates, each must select different quadrants.

3. It is a primary turret attack. It can be, and is, both things.

Unless the situation described is not the one that actually happened, the judge was just wrong. It happens.

1 hour ago, Nspace said:

1) Only one Bonus attack is allowed per round (RR, pg 6, Bonus Attack). VTG is explicitly a bonus attack and so you could only use that once, no matter how many times you rotate your arc.

Except he did not try to do two bonus attacks, he tried to rotate two times, one after each attack.

1 hour ago, Nspace said:

2) If a ship rotates a double turret arc indicator, it must select the other two standard arcs it was not already selecting (RR, pg 16, Rotate). If the double turret starts off pointing to the sides and then gets rotated to front and back, the judge might have used this rule to prevent rotating the turret back to the sides.

Yes, but then it is even more confusing as a ruling, because clearly this is two rotates. The rule is not that you can't ever get back to the same arc in a turn, it is that you must change arc when you do a rotate, so you must really rotate.

1 hour ago, Nspace said:

3) VTG also says it's a turret attack and doesn't explicitly say a primary attack, so I could see that as justification for not allowing Paige to trigger off of VTG.

This is a theory, but then the judge clearly does not understand how attack source are determined if he think doing a bonus attack with VTG is seen as a special attack even when done with a primary weapon.

So I've spoken to the Marshall and a judge from the event, and it turns out that there was quite a lot of confusion with the question that was being asked. Using my description, they have agreed that Paige/VTG allows you to rotate, then rotate back, as distinct effects triggered by the two distinct primary attacks.

They have asked that I go see them before registering at the next big UK event to talk/walk through the interaction to ensure that we are all clear. I'm 99.9% certain that they will rule with me, but I will pack my Rey gunner card as well ... just in case!

OP updated - it works as written ... as long as you use Front primary/turret, or the turret primary out of two different arcs.

You cannot (as per the wording on the rotate action) spin your turret 180 degrees to shoot out the same turret arc twice.

So, is everyone saying that a double turret indicator counts as one turret or does it count for two. All of the text seems to points to no, it is two separate turrets. Lets say I have the turret indicator set to the fore and aft position. They fire from the front turret triggering Paige allowing them to rotate, they rotate the rear indicator to the front arc and the front to the rear, and with Veteran Turret gunner they should be able to fire the previously rear turret from the front position since they had not fired from that turret yet. I don't see anything in the rules or cards that prevents this. I see where a 360 degree rotation would not be allowed but a 180 degree should be ok since they are two turrets in opposite directions.

Turret Arcs (I replaced the turret symbol with the word turret)

Unlike other arcs, some weapons use turret arc indicators to select arcs. There are two types of turret arc indicators: single turret and double turret....

The turret arc indicator points toward one of the ship’s four standard arcs. The standard arc that the turret arc indicator is pointing toward is a turret arc in addition to still being a standard arc. While a ship performs a turret attack, it can attack a target that is in its turret arc.

A ship with a double turret arc indicator has two turrets in opposite directions.

A ship can adjust which standard arc(s) that its turret arc indicator is pointing towards by using the rotate action.

F i r ing Ar cs

A ship’s firing arcs include all shaded arcs on the ship’s ship token plus all turret arcs, if any.

1. If an upgrade card gives a ship a turret arc or primary weapon with a specified arc, those arcs are also firing arcs.

7 minutes ago, SILENT FURY said:

So, is everyone saying that a double turret indicator counts as one turret or does it count for two. All of the text seems to points to no, it is two separate turrets. Lets say I have the turret indicator set to the fore and aft position. They fire from the front turret triggering Paige allowing them to rotate, they rotate the rear indicator to the front arc and the front to the rear, and with Veteran Turret gunner they should be able to fire the previously rear turret from the front position since they had not fired from that turret yet. I don't see anything in the rules or cards that prevents this. I see where a 360 degree rotation would not be allowed but a 180 degree should be ok since they are two turrets in opposite directions.

Turret Arcs (I replaced the turret symbol with the word turret)

Unlike other arcs, some weapons use turret arc indicators to select arcs. There are two types of turret arc indicators: single turret and double turret....

The turret arc indicator points toward one of the ship’s four standard arcs. The standard arc that the turret arc indicator is pointing toward is a turret arc in addition to still being a standard arc. While a ship performs a turret attack, it can attack a target that is in its turret arc.

A ship with a double turret arc indicator has two turrets in opposite directions.

A ship can adjust which standard arc(s) that its turret arc indicator is pointing towards by using the rotate action.

F i r ing Ar cs

A ship’s firing arcs include all shaded arcs on the ship’s ship token plus all turret arcs, if any.

1. If an upgrade card gives a ship a turret arc or primary weapon with a specified arc, those arcs are also firing arcs.

Double turrets must rotate to the arcs not previously selected. Rotating your turret is described on page 16 of the RRG.

45 minutes ago, Maui. said:

Double turrets must rotate to the arcs not previously selected. Rotating your turret is described on page 16 of the RRG.

The direct text from the rules reference regarding rotating a double turret arc.

Quote

• If a ship rotates a double turret arc indicator, it must select the other two standard arcs it was not already selecting.

I missed that, thanks

I don't quite understand what's going on here? Does this combination allow 3 different attacks?

Can somebody please talk me thru what's happening in the OP?

Thanks

2 minutes ago, Sovoth said:

I don't quite understand what's going on here? Does this combination allow 3 different attacks?

Can somebody please talk me thru what's happening in the OP?

Thanks

1. You perform a primary attack either from the front arc or a turret arc

2. You use Paige Tico to rotate the turret arcs.

3. You use veteran turret gunner to perform a turret arc attack.

4. You use Paige Tico to rotate the turret arcs back to their previous position.

32 minutes ago, joeshmoe554 said:

39 minutes ago, Sovoth said:

I don't quite understand what's going on here? Does this combination allow 3 different attacks?

Can somebody please talk me thru what's happening in the OP?

Thanks

1.        You perform a  primary attack          either from the front arc or a    turret arc

2.  You use Paige Tico to rotate the turret arcs.

3. You use veteran turret gunner to perform a turret arc attack.

4. You use Paige Tico to rotate  the turret arcs back to their previous position.

5. You do not perform another attack because you are limited by the rules to only one bonus attack per round.

The problem from the OP was looking for clarification on whether you could double tap out a side or rear arc by "rotating 180°" with Paige in step 2. The answer is no, you must choose the other two previously unselected arcs when rotating as restricted by the Rules Reference (1.0.4) p16 under Rotate .

That being said, if the enemy is in the front arc of a Starfortress you could attack with the forward arc weapon then double tap with the turret (this is what Veteran Turret Gunner Scurrgs and Y's are known for). Alternatively, if the target is straddling the line between the rear arc and one side you could attack with the turret on that side (or rear), Paige rotate to the rear arc (or that side), and double tap with the second arc.