After the few decks I posted and commented on, I have been tailing off. Some of its the new baby, but really its more that I used to be able to make decks that could fight fast decks, every battle pack seams to have given just a little more boost to the rush. I give my brother different versions of orc/skaven de/skaven and even chaod/skaven decks to play, and I keep making decks that try to beat them. Best I can do is a DE hand attack/snipping deck that can win about 4/10 vs rush decks.

I hate the ideal of posting decks that I just know are sub par for tourney play.

I wonder if its time to start testing a rule change inspead of hoping order comes up with conterrush cards. Loike not letting units attack the turn they come out. Would that slow down rushes enough to allow other decks to win more?

Dywnarc said:

I hear ya man. While a 'summoning sickness' rule would definitely slow things down a bit, the underlying problem are certain cards themselves which seem to be in the majority of the so-called top tier decks. And given that those cards all tend to show up for one side, i understand the frustration, complacency, & lack of interest that comes when considering such a limited card pool to craft a deck to win tournaments with. Especially when 25 - 50% of the cards you'd put in said deck are pretty much to be auto-included. That's not what I paid all this money on these cards for. And i'm certainly not gonna vote with my $ to encourage that type of restricitve play. Sure, it can be argued that one should still participate in a tournament with a sub-par deck out of principle, but I myself would rather use that money towards new BPs or other games. Nothing against the tournament environment itself (which I am very excited we have btw!) or its players of course - each to his own; and there is certainly still MUCH skill required & its merit to be earned IMHO. But for me, for the time being, I find it much more enjoyable to just have a few decks that are not the best, but fun to play against each other casually with friends. Still constantly changing with the BPs but avoiding the rushy stuff for the most part.

Oh yeah, I still enjoy the game a lot. I built about 12 decks that are fairly well balanced and fun to play. But I do like to be able to deck build to the best of my abaility, and still have variety.

I will even keep buying the battle packs cause I am warhammer freak, but I am not interested in tournemnt play in this enviroment.

I tell you what I do expect to see, and I expect to see them appear in order cards, and thats cards that attack a subtext, like "skaven" or "orc"

Some thing removes all units of said type from the board. A limited Verna like card. Some thing that makes over relience on one thing, not so sure a thing.

Dywnarc said:

I agree. The game would be better if units couldn't attack the turn they come out. Rush decks would be still powerfull but other decks would have enough time to run. Counterrush cards already exist, but the game need to be slowed down to make them efficient.

It is disheartening to me (an Empire player) how good rush decks are. I traded away most of my good orc cards, then built a mostly orc, some chaos rush deck. Despite the fact it's made up of all the "junk" cards I have left over, it still gets me more wins than my "real" deck (about 90% win rate).

My wife beat me with that rush deck, and she doesn't even know how to play.

RM

Countering rush is a matter of efficiency in removing such pests. The rush relies on either a large pile of cheap weak units or a handful of cheaply played but powerful units made so by support cards and tactic cards.

Now you can't stand on destroying their units alone. You have to control their quest side and ability to draw cards. If you can do that then rush decks tend to fall on their faces and lose.

I recommend putting in reset cards like Judgement of Verina, troll vommit, khaine's wraith, nurgle's pestilence, and Ulric's Fury along with a healthly dose of capital protection cards like contested fortress and dwarven forge to prevent damage and heal your kingdom. After that cards like demolition, burn it down, and pillage are great for picking off support cards to keep you opponent from gaining ground. Next do your thing and build your empire without over extending. That if your opponent is playing trolls then don't play 20 units because he won't hesitate to use troll vommitt on you and then play a few rush units to further damage your capitol. If you can keep a tight control and consistantly draw more cards than your opponent and keep enough resources to play key cards during his turn to stall or twart attacks while keeping the heat up on your end then you will beat rush decks more consistantly. Rush decks can be made from very little card choice and so are often the deck style of choice for newer players. I have at least 3 of every card currently in print. It allows me to play several different styles of play that have nothing to do with rush but I can often get heavy hitters on the table while they vainly attempt to get enough spider riders and choppas down. Sniping works great but so does empire/dwarf denial with shrine to taal & judgement.

Harliquine said:

It's a pity that game "balance" and deck variety has to be built upon card effects that basically negate what your opponent did during the last few turns.

@Dywnarc : I too arrived to the conclusion some of the very rules of the game has to be rewriten, to make WH:I plays the way I expected it to.

I still have fun with the game. I built a bunch of decks that are fun to play and balanced vs each other. So I certainly have not given up.

But it bugs me I can't take my deck building to a "competive level" and not keep comong up with the same themes.

I have an empire/dwarf judgement deck that can win a few games vs rush, a fast dwarf deck that can, and a DE/chaos snipping deck that can do very well with a little bit of starting luck. But at best these decks are 3-4 out of 10 vs skaven infused rush decks,not good enough for the tournement meta-game.

I have not tried , but I suspect a chaos damage daling spell based deck may come out all rght.

The Greyseer was pretty bad ass, but he was a one shot winder vs zones with deffenders and easily snipped. Deathmaster and clan moulder elites are the real killers backed up by a early zone burn from fast cheap stuff. I mentiion the moulder eleites cause of how cheap they are, and even if one can snip the other stuff, they survive to keep attacking till a few more cheap attackers join them.

I agree with Martin_fr. Especially with my DE deck, combating rush with cards like Wrath (I love the tip of the hat to WoG in that card name, heh) really does cripple your resources... resources dearly needed considering how expensive most DE units are. Against orc rush I often end up not playing any of the dudes in my hand just to have the rescources on my opponents turn to get rid of his rush army, and then I'm on the backfoot all game... and cards like spider riders mean that even a well timed Wrath or Take Captive is often in vain.

Often I find it's more effective to take the first burn like a *****, if you can trust your deck to survive and make a comeback. Understanding when to let a zone burn is so essential in W:I... like deciding when to go into decline playing Smallworld, that "gritty war" feel, having to sacrifice in order to win, a captain knowing when to jump ship.

Honestly, I love my DE HP reduction/control, and it's quite effective against most decks, but if the majority of players bring their rushy netdecks to our local tournament, I'm probably going to go home sore. But I can't bring myself to enter with an anti-rush deck; it would feel like contributing to the problem. And yes, cards like Har Ganeth and Vile Sorc are great against small units, but most of the time the heavy damage is being done as soon as they come out... and even if I return/kill them next turn, the scales are already tipped.

I think the designers are slowly trying to address the imbalance; my boyfriend is developing an eye tic that manifests whenever I play Witch Hag's Curse.

I think the added problem with the rush environment is the ability to draw as many cards as you want. In Magic, Howling Mine allowed you to draw an extra card and for White Weenie decks this really sped things along. In WH: I, you can draw up to 5 cards and win amazingly fast. While I do like the idea you can attack and defend on the same turn, I also agree that units should not be able to attack the turn they come into play, unless they have a "fast" ability or something. This could open up more depth and strategy while at the same time helping with the problem that everyone is using rush. Also, some cards are obviously overpowered but since there are no rares and everyone gets to use them, perhaps a limited list will be used in tournaments in the future, only 2 or 1 of a powerful card like Troll Vomit.

I always loved Discard decks in Magic, but as mentioned with the extra card draws in this game, discard as a theme doesn't really seem as potent as it should be. We need scouts that discard 2 cards at a time at random for the card advantage to actually feel advantageous.

Mill decks were not my cup of tea but look like they can be used in this game to effect.

I also think that a maximum hand size might be a pertinent rule, perhaps no more than 9 allowed.

Hi,

I will be long...

If you slow down rush decks by "units can't attack in the first turn" there is only one thing you gain : Bolt Thower deck becomes the most dominant instead of rush. Also, big unit decks became even slower, scouts became much more weaker etc...

That wouldn't be healthy to the game, as a unitless deck would be on the top in a mostly war oriented game ! ouch. (ps : some players already says that it's the strongest deck...)

BTW, I run a dwarf deck with Zealot Hunters, Blessing of Vallaya and those self sacrificing slayers... but those 1-2 cost offensive units are still hard to stop. The three problem cards are Spider riders (2 power for 1 resource), Moulder elite (the only 2 power for 2 resource card without any real drawback and insane health) and Deathmaster.

- I think the most insane is the Moulder elite, often could be rid of which much more effort than 2 resource and a single card.

- Spider r. is often destroyed for about 2 resource (a 2 resource unit or tactic will do)... it would not be so dangerous alone, but in pair with other cheap units you often don't have time to get rid of them

- Deathmaster is great, but it's a hero (they tend to be stronger than normal units), gets corrupted and only 2 HP.

As most (non-rush) decks vs order need some support removal, the same time creature removal (like Zealot Hunter or mass removals) are needed for order decks. It won't be aproblem in itself, but there are maybe more (and cheaper) targets than removers.

Order options are :

1. Counterstike. (Empire)

Plus : It's great agains spiders, cheap orcs, and also could weaken a moulder elite
Minus : worthless against non-combatants like Deathmaster (or Bule)

2. Mass Removals

Plus : get rid of multiple targets in one stroke
Minus : Judgement need WoE in too many times and even then not always stop rush, flames delays only (and in the case of riders/elite it's maybe just a turn)

3. Zealot Hunter

Plus : A unit and a removel in one. Could kill Deathmaster, elite, any other skaven or undeads in the future
Minus : it's development-only vs monofaction decks

4. Targeted Removals (Dwarwes)

Plus : There are many ways to remove single attackers, and you have Lure them Out and Blessing of Vallaya, scout-snipers, and Zufbar Engineers
Minus : all of your removals has some buit-in limitation, and in many cases only 1-2 out of your many options would work, so you need many redundancy

5. Fog effects (Master rune of Vallaya etc.)

Plus : Buying you a valuable turn
Minus : spent resources without lasting effect, nonsolution in itself

6. Vigilant Electors

Plus : could remove any treat
Minus : it's too expensive in most cases, and takes 1 turn to work. (worth against Deathmaster btw)

There are other effects of course which could help, like Banishing, and supportive things like healing your capital etc, but these are only complements of the above. I think overall it's possible to make a somewhat working combination of those, especially if you have the first turn. Of course, the removals are more limited than the units, also in this game attacking is more effective than turtling.

In my experience, maybe the problem is not with the units itself, but effects like Waagh!/Totem of Gork that enables to even two cheap units to burn a zone.