Didn't see a thread about this yet.

https://meta.listfortress.com/

I think there's some new features here. The filtering by event size is super cool.

Oh awesome! I never used it much back in 1st edition, but I'll be super glad to use it now.

How does it accommodate for points changes and how those affect the value of a card?

6 minutes ago, ClassicalMoser said:

How does it accommodate for points changes and how those affect the value of a card?

It doesn't calibrate for that per se because there's no real way to do that, but in the settings you can choose the timeframe that it looks at data from. It automatically sets this timeframe to only use data from since the points last updated or new ships last released

3 hours ago, Kieransi said:

It doesn't calibrate for that per se because there's no real way to do that, but in the settings you can choose the timeframe that it looks at data from. It automatically sets this timeframe to only use data from since the points last updated or new ships last released

Excellent! That answers my question perfectly

A direct consequence in 1E was a rise in netlisting and narrowing of the meta. Hope it doesn’t happen now.

Nice to have the data back though!

1 hour ago, Estarriol said:

A direct consequence in 1E was a rise in netlisting and narrowing of the meta. Hope it doesn’t happen now.

Nice to have the data back though!

This.

Metawing is evil.

1 hour ago, Estarriol said:

A direct consequence in 1E was a rise in netlisting and narrowing of the meta. Hope it doesn’t happen now.

Looks at pile of quad Phantoms, Han Brake, and Drea Scurrg builds at this weekend's System Opens.

Yeah, MetaWing was clearly causing that problem... 😉

More seriously, I found tools like MetaWing really helpful for getting an idea of what people were flying, and so getting an idea of what you might face at a big event. That doesn't nessesarily translate into netlisting IMO.

16 minutes ago, TheCeilican said:

Metawing is evil.

What changed?

I share the opinion to a lesser degree because it will be used to argue all kinds of stupid ideas.

But I agree with what you said there: " But  if you do know how to read it and allow for its foibles it's a very useful aggregator.  "

People don't know how to use it, though. It becomes a 'me want win quick' button to smash repeatedly.

1 hour ago, Jarval said:

Looks at pile of quad Phantoms, Han Brake, and Drea Scurrg builds at this weekend's System Opens.

Yeah, MetaWing was clearly causing that problem... 😉

More seriously, I found tools like MetaWing really helpful for getting an idea of what people were flying, and so getting an idea of what you might face at a big event. That doesn't nessesarily translate into netlisting IMO.

Podcasts are more responsible for propagating lists into the meta than metawing could ever be.

1.0 had far, far more "trap" ships and list options. It's significantly harder to **** up listbuilding in 2.0.

You can mostly fly whatever you want in Hyperspace and it's basically fine.

2 hours ago, Dreadai said:

Podcasts are more responsible for propagating lists into the meta than metawing could ever be.

I think this is probably true.

I think people hugely underestimate how much impact player preferences have on list choice.

Meta Wing and Meta Analysis is useful. I like all of it. Even when its not 100% accurate because its a logic test for dumbs.

End of the day the field always remains what feels like 50% janky and full of terrors.

9 minutes ago, svelok said:

1.0 had far, far more "trap" ships and list options. It's significantly harder to **** up listbuilding in 2.0.

You can mostly fly whatever you want in Hyperspace and it's basically fine.

And my fear is that this enterprising spirit will be killed by Metawing.

2 minutes ago, Boom Owl said:

I think people hugely underestimate how much impact player preferences have on list choice.

Meta Wing and Meta Analysis is useful. I like all of it. Even when its not 100% accurate because its a logic test for dumbs.

End of the day the field always remains 50% janky and full of terrors.

This is absolutely true. Probably the majority of people in this game, even at tournaments, just run what they find cool and/or fun.

1 minute ago, TheCeilican said:

And my fear is that this enterprising spirit will be killed by Metawing.

I would basically just contend access to the information is irrelevant, it's the game itself that determines that spirit. The game we call 1.0 punished it, because the most efficient lists were wildly, massively more efficient.

In 2.0, you don't have people bringing their naive thematic movie list to their first tournament and getting 200-0'ed by Jumpmasters or whatever. Sarah's Luke/Wedge/Dutch list will earn some MoV and have a close game or two and she'll have a fun tournament experience and want to try building new lists.

5 minutes ago, Biophysical said:

This is absolutely true. Probably the majority of people in this game, even at tournaments, just run what they find cool and/or fun.

Very weird incentives need to be at play for somebody to sign up for 6-8 hours of playing a list they don't enjoy. Even in 1.0, huge swathes of people insisted on running suboptimal lists for the sake of fun, when doing so was really crippling.

6 minutes ago, TheCeilican said:

And my fear is that this enterprising spirit will be killed by Metawing.

Meh, some of us continue to throw random garbage on the map despite what we hear/read. It won't kill the enterprising spirit, but there is evidence that it suppresses it.

Just want to point out that the meta narrowed down within a wave for both wave 2 and 3 - and that was without metawing. But also that the diversity is huge, even after narrowing down.

Of course we can make abstract classifications to claim that there are only few types. As example, I distinguish between RebelBeef with and without Leia, for example, because I believe that is a large enough difference. And there are so many ways to build rebelbeef, too! Of course they all go with the same or similar idea into a game, but it is worth pointing out that they bring different combinations of upgrades, pilots and even ships.

And then there is our perception. Back in 1.0, we would all have been amazed at the diversity of 2.0 hyperspace. But now we are getting used to it and a new baseline was formed.

I am also optimistic that metawing will not narrow the meta down as much as it happened in 1.0, because 2.0 does not punish non-optimal lists to the same degree. Because maneuvers and choices matter more than the exact build.

4 hours ago, TheCeilican said:

Metawing is evil.

From my point of view, the Jedi are evil!

Honestly? I think this doesn’t change much - we all knew the top performers by watching the streams of events. I personally like having this because it lets me scout out the competition and make a rough game plan for “what happens when I run into X?”

That said, you still can’t bet on that match up - Adepticon 2018 was all about how do I kill Ghost Fenn and I played... one.

5 hours ago, Estarriol said:

A direct consequence in 1E was a rise in netlisting and narrowing of the meta. Hope it doesn’t happen now.

Nice to have the data back though!

Well we have had a very defined meta with lots of "more of the same" top lists until now. Without meta wing in 2nd and with meta wing in 1st.

So i can't see this changing anything about the situation.

If anything it might show the game designers what is really being abused at a given moment. I mean we had squads in 1st that had such good stats that anyone looking at meta wing knew that they were fundamentally OP.

Netlisting on the other hand happens since the net exists. Always. In any game that allows identical lists. And even before the net existed as a tool for that, people copied world champ lists already afaik.

So i don't really see a negative side about meta wing quite honestly.

Then only way i can see around this would be a game system like Keyforge has for example. Which is out of the question for X-Wing. The best that can be done is to perfect balancing more and more, so that lists depend on personal preference and skills rather than on power level of ships and upgrades. After all if you can win with anything, why not play what you really like instead of what you see being mandatory for success.

5 hours ago, TheCeilican said:

Metawing is evil.

Well, at least we can play that game in 1st edition where you'd look at a premier pilot that was underrepresented (such as Kylo), do decently with said pilot, and watch it bump up on the site for a few days. And now with two formats, I have two sets of pilots to try to bump up! Even better, more "secondary" pilots of ships are actually good in this edition in the game, broadening the game of fighting the meta!

Might I also add, that had we not as a community made quad phantoms such a boogeyman that the tryhards all grab them, then the brilliance of Hatchetman would not have been able to take the victory in Denver! The same goes for the fanatical-heavy highly-mobile finalist!

9 minutes ago, player3010587 said:

Might I also add, that had we not as a community made quad phantoms such a boogeyman that the tryhards all grab them, then the brilliance of Hatchetman would not have been able to take the victory in Denver! The same goes for the fanatical-heavy highly-mobile finalist!

There's an important lesson there... but it's a different one from that, I think!

Only 9 people out of 160 showed up with Quad Phantoms. Fully 4 of them made cut. It wasn't a flood of the archetype, but it posted very, very far above average results.

I might not have the cut matchups correct, but as best I can tell...

• Mitchel Hurst's QD/2x FOTP list faced only one Quad Phantoms list all day (round 6 of swiss), which he lost to.
• Andrew Nuckols' Vader/Vynder/Jendon faced three Quad Phantoms lists all day (top 16, top 8, and top 4 in cut), all of which he obviously beat.

So of our two finalists, one faced 3 Quad Phantoms lists out of 9 games played, and the other faced 1 out of 9 games played. And in swiss, it was only one total, between the both of them!

Which is just to say... even a tournament-winning run faces probably 2 "meta" lists in swiss total.

Typically the rate is a bit higher in cut, but building to counter a meta usually doesn't help you get to the cut. For that, you're usually just on your own.

Awesome thanks! Good to see what's popular and out there so I can tailor my squads to fly against it haha. I'll still fly my Ghost Rebel squadrons and Soulless One Separatist ones regardless of what's popular.

6 hours ago, TheCeilican said:

People don't know how to use it, though. It becomes a 'me want win quick' button to smash repeatedly.

But that doesn’t make it evil. It might be used for ill, but that doesn’t make the thing evil itself.