Meatpuppet said:

It wouldn't be too bad, until he got Unnatural Agility.

ThenDoctor said:

Agreed. Or, you could just waste a few Melta-Bombs, to cover an area too large for the VA to dodge out of. Or, for that matter, one big bomb, appropriately placed, say in the small room that is the perfect spot for the VA to set up his kill-shot.

Sister Cat said:

Wouldn't work. VAs can dodge attacks that can't normally be dodged, including massive explosions.

macd21 said:

Okay, having re-read the Temple Assassin trait ... it seems that you are correct. In that case, just confound the VA with massed auto-fire. A dozen or more Heavy Bolters should do the trick, no matter how "broken" the VA has been allowed to become. While I will grant you, that still makes them "broken", they still can be killed. Granted, this assumes that they allow themselves to get in a position where multiple auto-fire heavy weapons can be brought to bear against them.

One other option is ... send a squad of Eversor Assassins or so, against them. Eventually, the VA is going to run out of Dodges. Just sayin' ...

In the 40K universe, everyone and everything can be killed.

Well the VAs are broken.

But take heart! For there are other game systems that have broken character classes as well. One in particular gives us some useful lessons on how to deal with over powered characters. I would suggest that you deal with a VA the same way you would deal with a Jedi in the Star Wars RPG.

In a word. SPACE....

Yes the wonderful cold hard vacuum of space (it does not care how many dodges you have)! Air go whoosh!! Is a bad thing. Alternatively blow up the ship they are on.

Of course as anyone who has had to deal with the midichlorian powered monsters has learned, the best way to deal with character classes that are vastly over powered is to not allow one into the game.

I hear the Vindicare Temple trains its members so well, they can Dodge anything. Even the kinda stuff mortal folk shouldn't ever be able to get out of the way of.

Some folk say they've heard whispers that Vindicare operatives can even Dodge GM Fiat.

The Hobo Hunter said:

Well now, that's just HERESY at its finest.

Any GM worth his/her salt, should have a contingency for such insane levels of power. Or, should have denied the offending career path/progression, as unbecoming his/her game. Just sayin' ...

Aye Sister Cat is right. It is up to the GM to determine what is broken and what is not. The VA certainly gives the GM some challenges in adventure development.

Sister Cat said:

The matter is whether or not they can be killed - as GM I can kill anything - the issue is weather they can be consistently challenged in a game that is still fun and fair for the rest of the party. (And I don't want to hear "throw them into an investigation!" because as great as that is, eventually combat will ensue, the players insist upon it, so where does that leave the rest of the party then? And it is not as though the VA character can't be just as good as the other PCs at conducting investigations too.)

Jack of Tears said:

Bombernoy,

Your suggestions for challenging the Vindicare might succeed, but only at the cost of every other PC that attempts to stand beside them, and if combat conditions are so difficult that the Vindicare has terrible penalties, then the rest of the group is totally screwed. As for seperating the team - that's an artificial divide that smart players won't let happen too often, and only an asshat GM will force more than rarely. These are the reasons that balance within the party needs to be considered.

HappyDaze said:

Bombernoy said:

Best comment EVER about Ascension! (I've been GM'ing DH for a year now)

I like it seriously. I'm only going to work around any problems if they actually turn up in play. The only thing really concerning me is force barrage but I'm not worried. Near the end of their careers in Ascension the characters are going to be amongst the most powerful things in the sector; seriously. This the endgame of Inquisition PCs. Combat will still take a part in it but you will not be running dungeon crawls any more.

• Take a scissors, paper, stone view of the combat side of the game. (e.g. a VC can kill nearly anything one to one, but have him faced with a city block with 200 cultists dug in sorcerer backup)
• It will be difficult for you to plan combats fairly as GM, but you can make them interesting and challenging without going overboard.
• Have PCs take more a strategic role. If a fight against the cultists is brewing then the PCs will have local PDF, enforcers, Arbiters on their side. Do a map of the city and show the areas they control and have to marshal their resources. Allow the fighting to get desperate they have the big bad guy raise his ugly head so the PCs then get to pounce for the kill via assaulting the HQ in an Arbites Rhino!
• Let the bad guys do dirty tricks. Have a look at the optional kill team in "Damned Cities", that is a group that can threaten an Ascension level Cadre and have them burning fate points. Throw the kill team at the players in the middle of a planetary uprising. Go on you want to.
• Take the players out of their comfort zone, if you are mainly doing low Hive or space adventures. Then Rejoice For You Are True is an example of a setting that could be used; most PCs have problems with this type of environment (player should enjoy it). The Maggots in the Meat adventure is another great setting (adventure needs work) on a feudal world. Sorry no advanced weaponry if you are going undercover
• Encourage PC split loyalties. Have the local Techpriests petition the =][= Techpriest for aid (as he's now a senior Magos) yeah Techpriest Roleplaying, who'd thought that...
• Every single PC will be the undeniable expert in their field and accomplished in a few other fields. Play to their strengths & weaknesses....
• Know your players. Cater for them give them a good time.
• Allow the PCs to plan more (it's fun and they'll enjoy it), let them take the fight to the heretics
• Have opportunities for them to go undercover more, the players will be restraining their powers in, waiting until they get to the heart of the heresy.
• Let them fail. If one of the PC shows his hand and levels a gambling joint with advanced skills/talents/weaponry have the local cult run for the next system, or even worse split, & run for two systems. Now the players have double the job to do...

Ascension is a fantastic tool for delivering high level gaming to players in a 40k setting. The character classes are unbalanced. Sorry but is life fair? 40k has never been about fair or balance or equality. If I wanted a balanced system I'd be playing World of Borecraft or something else mind numbing. The fact that you have the potential for a PC Inquisitor is the most unbalanced thing I've ever seen in a game, but the way that it's been discussed and how to focus the group around it is very well written.

The sections in Ascension on campaign planing are well worth the read, twice. People who read Ascension who complain that the PCs are overpowered are missing the point. They are supposed to be . Yes if the Lord of Change runs up to the Party and charges in going hand to hand he deserves to die. Any mission against the LoC will be wading though layers upon layers of Cultists and Heresy and corruption (both kinds). At the end if they have done really well and they have discovered (and countered) all of his 10 escape routes off the planet (including back into the warp) they may have a go at taking him down face to face. Being able to face the LoC in combat is their reward for doing really well and even them the combat isn't a foregone conclusion.

The final comment is that I think some people aren't willing to make the change to game style Ascension requires. Some of the old style missions that are GM led in Core DH will not work with Ascension. If anything the game play will be player led with the GM providing the environment. Anyone considering running the game should read p191 onwards of Ascension as they are amongst the best parts of that book.

Baldrick said:

Yes, it is unbalanced. That may or may not be an issue for your players, but it certainly is for others out there and is simply poor game design. However, that isn't the biggest issue with the rules.

The biggest issue is that some of the careers break the game. Sure, you can kill a VA or create an NPC that a Primaris can't kill - if you twist the rules and pick and choose opponents specifically designed to take them down. About 90% of the opponents and scenarios I might want to throw at the PCs have to be scrapped because they simply aren't viable anymore - the VA alone can deal with them. Want to challenge the party with an Eversor Assassin or a Greater Daemon of Khorne? The VA will be completely immune to their attacks and can counter attack at his leisure. The Primaris can simply incinerate either of them in a single turn and still have enough energy left over to kill anyone else nearby.

Baldrick said:

I'm sorry, but yes it is a foregone conclusion if the right careers are present. A Primaris Psyker can kill between 3 and 8 Lords of Change every turn. A VA can't be hurt by any of the sample antagonists in the book. No, the characters are not supposed to be this powerful. If they were than all of them would have system-breaking quirks. Instead they are limited to VA's (multiple 100+% dodges) and Primaris Psykers (the ability to insta-kill anything). Under these circumstances of course combat is a reward, the PCs know they are going to win. There isn't actually any point in rolling the dice.

Baldrick said:

So the excuse is that the fact that these careers break a certain part of the game is fine because that part of the game is no longer important? Again, no. Combat is still an integral part of the game. If it wasn't then there wouldn't be rules for Eversor Assassins and Herald's of Khorne and there wouldn't be combat careers like the Death Cult Assassin, Crusaders, Stormtroopers and VAs. Sure, you can excise combat from your game if you want, but it isn't the default assumption of Ascension. And if you are doing it to avoid dealing with the broken parts of the rules then you are just ignoring the problem, not fixing it. You are also punishing combat oriented player characters for problems in the system.

The VA and the Primaris are quite simply badly designed. They invalidate certain career choices (Death Cult Assassin and Stormtrooper especially). The vast majority of antagonists are powerless against them. Trying to come up with an encounter that challenges them forces you to twist the circumstances ridiculously. Doing so in a way that doesn't auto-kill the other PCs is even more difficult. The GM will probably have to throw out entire story concepts because they can't challenge the players, unless he's willing to keep throwing them into ridiculous situations to nerf the broken characters. Either option is bad GMing.

And these problems only crop up with two of the Careers. I haven't seen anyone complain about the Death Cult Assassin. Monstrously dangerous killer, but not broken. The Stormtrooper can probably dish out more damage in a round than a VA, but the fact that he can be killed means that isn't a problem.The evidence points to VAs and Primaris Psykers being anomalous design errors, not intentionally overpowered.

macd21 said:

Okay, lets do this, in order of your points, I will give my counter points. One, did you really just try and say that a VA could take an Evesor or Greater Demon? May want to go back and reread the stats on those too, but here's a hint, one of them gets the temple assassin trait and a sh*t load of attacks, the other can summon demons in. So perhaps the problem is you've not really read and just skimmed, stats alone don't make an enemy. As for the psyker, shure he can cook them both at later ranks, meanwhile, my guardsmen can cook them at rank whenever he gets his greedy little hands on an auto or assault cannon. Hmm, that oddly enough seems familiar, where have a seen that style of the uber character gets weaker as time goes and vice versa?
The Lord of Change thing, well, see above, when it comes to the VA, as for the Primaris, yes, he can do kill 3-8 of them, if he stands there and begs him too. Otherwise, the odds are seriously against you cornering him and killing him by himself. And if he honestly is outdone, tweak him a little, I consider the book antagonist to be for the first few ranks anyways, if you want something really deadly do like people have always done in RPGs and make it yourself.
Your third point, I agree with parts of, combat is a part of the game and you can't just look the other way, but that being said, you have a few more things I see as being incorrect. First, storm troopers start out as, and for the most part remain able to soak much more damage then a VA could do to the increase in sound con and other abilities that lend themselves too it (3 armor vs 7 armor, avg 3 toughness without unnatural avg 4 toughness). So lots of little targets can kill a V.A. but wont hurt the Guardsman all that much. Further, I have a VA in my group, I desighned a story ignoring the fact that he has the potential to be stupid good and looking more to what he is as a character. Remember that these are more then just numbers on sheets, they are supposed to be personalities brought to life by players.

Hmm, that oddly enough seems familiar, where have a seen that style of the uber character gets weaker as time goes and vice versa?

If you're thinking what I did when I read that, then it's hardly a flattering comparison as early D&D showed terrible considerations of game balance and should not be the standard to which modern RPGs should be designed.

Bombernoy said:

The Eversor can't hurt the VA. The VA gets more dodges than the EA gets attacks and the VA's dodges are at 100+, while the EA's are at a paltry 88% or so. So a VA can (and will) beat an EA in melee.

A Greater Daemon might be able to summon enough lesser daemons to present a challenge to a VA, but probably not. Again, the EA has so many dodges that the GD and his minions probably won't be able to hurt him, meanwhile he can dish out enough damage to take him down in a few rounds. It's also an amazingly dull and contrived scene -"ok, the first 14 attacks from the Daemons all miss automatically, but the 15th attack.. ha!"

The primaris can cook everything from about rank 14 automatically and without any challenge. The guardsman can't do anything as dangerous, ever. Especially not combined with +300 to initiative, do you automatically get to kill your opponent before your opponent gets a chance to fire off a shot. And if you are pointing to previous editions of D&D as an example of another game that does this, thank you for supporting my point. Yes, there are other games that are also notorious for bad game design, the D&D 'wizard problem' being the most well known. Game designers have held up the poor design of the D&D class system as an example of what not to do for decades.

The Lord of Change is so outdone as to be a joke. It should be a major challenge no matter what the rank of the characters. As it stands it isn't really a challenge for a starting VA. A starting Primaris could probably kill it in one round anyway.

As for your last point, yes they are more than numbers. But the numbers can get in the way of the game when they break the system. Just because you can ignore it when the system breaks down doesn't mean you should have to. When a game system features bad design you look at it and try to solve it, you don't just shrug and say "life isn't fair".

Bombernoy said:

I'm sorry, but this simply isn't true. Assuming a Guardsman has the following:

* 5 Toughness bonus

* 7 Armor

= 12

And the VA has the following:

* 4 Toughness bonus ( = 8 with Unnatural Toughness)

* 4 Armor

= 12

I think it's pretty fair to assume the guardsman has bought advances up to 50+ toughness and the assassin going up to 40+. In addition, there are TONS of weapons that has a high penetration, meaning the guardsman's armor will be next to useless. The VA meanwhile, can always rely on his Toughness to carry the day. That is BEFORE all the dodges of course...

So yes, the guardsman likely has a significant number of wounds more than the assassin, but given all the other details (the usefulness of toughness vs armor, dodges) I'd say it's pretty fair to state that the VA can take at least as solid a punch as the guardsman can.

Fixing the VA dodge talent: Let it be AB dodge per session. Many acended talents work on a per session basis. Rule that the VA talent is like that, and if the VA is in a combat where he needs more than his usual dodge+step aside he can draw on this bonus pool.

So, what is more effective?

One assassin with maybe 90 rounds of ammo for two guns and 3 special rounds

Or

One storm trooper leading 10 battalions of IG troops and armor in a planetary assault with air, orbital, and psyker support at his command?

All depends on what you need done.

People need to keep in mind the scale of Ascension. Imperium, sector and system wide threats that Throne agents should be dealing with should never come down to just one fight with one or two enemy combatants.

ItsUncertainWho said:

Thank you, ItsUncertainWho. You just said, in a concise and elegant manner what I've been trying to get across in many paragraphs of varied posts.

While that still doesn't solve the problems some of the other posters here see ... and I can understand their consternation ... it does go a long way toward explaining the "implied" difference between DH and Ascension.

ItsUncertainWho said:

Good point, now if you only could come up with a use for the Crusader class other than the Inquisitor's personal meat shield we're all set

PS: the Inquisitor/Interrogator might do exactly the same thing as the storm trooper, and probably better than him (higher Fel scores). They probably can't join personally, but that probably won't make any difference with regards to the power level of the dispatched unit(s).

ItsUncertainWho said:

All of the above is fine, as long as the Stormtrooper A) can't rely on that automatically (chance of summoning the above isn't 100%+ on all occasions) and B) doesn't completely outclass other careers who should be able to do something similar.

Bombernoy said:

Just to be a petty rules-lawyer, Man Stoppers cannot be used with the Autocannon (Core rulebook, p143). Considering autocannons usually fire explosive multi-purpose ammo, it sorta makes sense that it doesn't help to coat them in teflon or whatever they use in the 41st millennium. Also, per the Errata (v3, p 9), Man stoppers do not ADD 3 to Pen, but increase it UP TO (but not beyond) 3.

So, he'll have to make do with the Pen of 4

Darth Smeg said: